Fireside Chat: Richard Bird, Jim Coudal, and Carlos Segura Matt 27 Jul 2006

18 comments Latest by Geoff DiMasi

[Fireside Chats are round table discussions conducted using Campfire.]

Design: Then and Now
We gathered three design veterans (and old friends of 37signals), Richard Bird, Jim Coudal, and Carlos Segura, ‘round the Campfire to chat about “Design: Then and Now.” Topics included their roots/influences, what it’s like to sell your own products, dream projects, control freaks, the loss of craft in design, and how they used to walk five miles to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways.

About the chatters
Richard Bird’s R.BIRD & Company, Inc. is a New York design consulting firm with more than 20 years of experience in brand identity, consumer product packaging, and corporate ID. R.BIRD also sells limited edition, abstract art at Lavaluva.

Jim Coudal’s Coudal Partners works on television, print, identity, interactive, and brand development projects. Coudal also operates Jewelboxing, a source for custom DVD and CD packages, and The Show, home to limited-edition live performances on CD.

Carlos Segura’s Segura, Inc. is a multi-faceted design and communications firm that specializes in print, collateral, and new media communications. Segura also sells fonts at T-26 and custom designed blank CDR’s and cases at 5inch.

Sample quotes
Jim: “[Designers are] reworking old styles instead of making new ones. Eventually we’ll be nostalgic for yesterday or this morning.”

Richard: “Craftsmen are history. Including the likes of Muller-Brockmann, George Lois, Paul Rand and so on. The new design ‘leadership’ are those who draw attention through shock and awe.”

Jim: “Don’t tell anyone but it’s a big improvisation. And anyone who runs a creative firm and tells you differently is lying to you.”

Carlos: “Out ‘cooling’ someone is just a simple, easy, and empty thing to do.”

Richard: “[In the 80’s,] graphic design was a well-respected profession. Our point of view was sought out. Clients competed for our attention. There was a great deal of mystery around what we did and why.”

Carlos: “I’ve had only 6 good clients in my career. I define [a good] one as ‘allowing me to do what they hired me to do.’ I try very hard to do the same when I hire someone.”

Jim: “I truly believe my greatest mistakes are ahead of me. Something to look forward to.”

Full chat transcript after the jump.

Matt
When did you start designing? Any amusing stories about your first gig(s)?
Carlos
i’ve got 1
Carlos
when i got started doing this
Carlos
my goal was really to be a drummer in a band (that I was in for 9 years)
Carlos
i had 3 duties… 1) drummer, 2) drive the truck, and 3) tell people where we were playing.
Carlos
during that process, (i had NO IDEA) i was doing "design", i got known for doing some pretty cool flyers
Carlos
similar to what is done today for raves
Carlos
long story short…
Carlos
when i quit the band, one of my first gigs was as a "keyliner", and when the guy asked if i had experience
Carlos
i said yes
Richard
Exactly, Carlos. I, too, was my own first client. Promoting a rock’n’roll band in which I was a member. Without realizing it, I was learning the art of graphic design.
Richard
Pretty soon, I’m doing the same thing for friends, friends of friends, et cetera. Still, didn’t really feel it was any kind of calling.
Carlos
well, the first job i had was to keyline a catalog
Carlos
and he gave me a blue pencil and told me to mark it up
Carlos
i asked why a blue pencil
Carlos
another guy said because the camera does not "see" it
Carlos
since i did not know that
Carlos
i got fired on the spot, since he knew i had no clue what i was doing.
Matt
hah
Jason
Carlos, didn’t you used to design the security liners for envelopes? Wasn’t that one of your first jobs?
Carlos
yes,
Carlos
the second job i had was designing the return addresses for bank deposit envelopes
Carlos
i then moved "up" to design the patterns inside the envelopes
Carlos
that was the most i’ve learned at a job
Carlos
it still serves me to this day
Matt
what year are we talking about?
Carlos
1972 and on
Jim
I edited a magazine that I started in college but it never occurred to me until I was in the middle of the first issue that it needed to be designed. So I swiped a bunch of ideas from The Village Voice and Punch Magazine and Esquire and…
Jim
that was pretty much that
Jim
once I got a hold of the optical headline setter I was hooked
Matt
jim, what year was that magazine?
Jim
I guess 83
Jim
"Fallout"
Matt
true or false carlos: when you played drums, you had a pair of platform shoes that had a fishbowl inside the heel?
Carlos
true
Jim
hehehe
Matt
LOVE IT!
Jason
Richard, what about you?
Richard
I got my first professional gig as a graphic artist completely by accident. I was in New York to do some recording with the band. The band leader suggested I bring my portfolio of drawings (I studied studio art) and see if I could find a job to help out with rent. So, on Monday I headed to an appointment with an employment agency and missed the door, accidentally walking into a small husband/wife graphic arts studio. They were frantically busy. I was hired on the spot. Didn’t have a clue what it was all about. Not really.
Richard
That was 1977.
Richard
I spent every spare hour I had there in the darkroom, on the board, reading, et cetera. That was my real education.
Jason
RB — wow, what a great story.
Jason
The one thing I take away from all of your stories is that great things usually happen by accident.
Carlos
i agree
Jason
Too much planning and you plan your way *out* of opportunities.
Jason
I’ve often felt plans are like blinders. Look this way and only this way. Who needs that?
Jim
I concur
Jim
later I was working at a tv station
Jim
ch 32
Richard
(Jim: for me, it was radio.)
Matt
question about influences:
Matt
Did you have people who influenced you when you began? How have your influences changed over the years? Now that you’re more experienced, do you find you get your inspiration from within instead of from outside sources?
Jim
I always looked up to Carlos
Carlos
ahhh
Jim
and I guess once I discovered Brockmann I had a direction to follow
Jim
I get influence from film and art and stuff
Jim
try to bend other stuff into design rather than necessarily looking at other designs
Jim
lots of record covers and magazines were important too
Carlos
i was influenced by Japan for visual input and body language, UK for type direction
Carlos
there were many "teaching" tools back in the day that are in essence gone now
Carlos
one good example are paper promos
Carlos
today, they are full of tricks and special effects
Carlos
devoid of "teaching"
Carlos
but, back then, they were full of tips and techniques
Carlos
primarily because you really had to know your shit
Carlos
or you were out
Carlos
but also
Carlos
they were good trend spotters
Jim
def
Carlos
the best example of this is the book called "The Pocket Pal".
Carlos
this was originally a international papers promo
Carlos
it is now a classic book with it’s own website
Carlos
very helpful
Jim
esp relevant to print production and printing techniques
Carlos
a lot of things that designers are involved with today are often done improperly.
Richard
Craft is a big problem.
Jim
yup
Carlos
the preparation of files for print is a great example
Richard
I drive myself crazy with the poster ads on the trains.
Richard
So many things "wrong" in so many dimensions.
Jim
1 out of every 5 student layouts has poorly handled typography
Jim
you can’t be a carpenter without knowing how to drive a nail
Carlos
I learned all i know as a "stripper", and while it was all "analog", it still applies
Matt
Is it the rise of computers that’s killed the ‘craft’ of design?
Richard
No doubt.
Carlos
true
Jim
C
Richard
Nobody "touches" type any more.
Carlos
the problem is even deeper though, because the tasks like kerning, leading and trapping are completely missing from most efforts
Jason
Let me jump in here, just to take the other position…
Jason
Maybe today’s design is just a different kind of design
Jason
Like digital music isn’t Mozart
Jim
shoddy is shoddy
Carlos
i don’t agree
Carlos
there are rules
Carlos
and not in the "old school" way
Jim
totally agree
Carlos
just that there are proper way to handle type
Carlos
old or new
Carlos
part of the problem is the schools and what they (don’t) teach
Jason
You could argue that most people making music today can’t read music. Is that a bad thing?
Carlos
that is not the same thing
Jim
you can’t toss thousands of years of trial and error out the window just because your assistant got a copy of indesign
Carlos
right
Carlos
and
Carlos
you can be a good designer and not have "training" (as i am) just like you don’t have to read music to make it
Carlos
but
Carlos
there are ways to do it right
Jason
I agree, I was just curious about your take. I definitely see and feel the loss of "craft."
Jason
I think Carlos will agree — we get what we deserve.
Jim
yup
Jason
We want everything faster and cheaper.
Jason
There’s no time for craft in most projects.
Jason
Craft is seen as unnecessary cost these days. Isn’t it your jobs to stick up for it? How much craft do you push back on and say "we *must* do this right?"
Jason
You guys are the leaders. If you don’t inject craft who will?
Richard
Of course, we inject craft, it’s just not noticed by the client. We could produce the same "idea" shoddily and it will go.
Richard
In other words, the craft of design is no longer so much a differentiator.
Jim
right
Carlos
there is a belief that "craft" is an automatic task that comes bundled with the "computer". It IS NOT. But because of it, it is being forgotten, ignored and worse yet, dismissed as "old".
Jim
the kids can buy the equipment for a couple grand
Jim
but here’s the important part
Jim
they’re BETTER editors
Jim
the know it intrinsically
Jim
they breathe it
Jim
and sometimes you can see that sort of thing in design too
Richard
Right. Craftsmen are history. Including the likes of Muller-Brockmann, George Lois, Paul Rand and so on. The new design "leadership" are those who draw attention through shock and awe.
Richard
I understand what you’re saying about mastering the tools, Jim, while there are many who claim to, very few actually do.
Carlos
very few
Jim
jason would you say that by and large the cleanest best looking sites most often have the cleanest best looking code?
Jason
Jim, I think people that want to build beautiful things on the outside also want to build beautiful things on the inside.
Jason
So those that really care care about both in and out, surface and code.
Richard
Love that - inside/outside - thing, JF. That’s a good thought. That’s a curse and a blessing.
Carlos
perhaps because i am a type guy
Carlos
this part pains me the most
Carlos
and i see it everywhere
Carlos
even the "pros" (clients and firms) are guilty of it
Jim
the great work with type stands out even higher for lack of competition
Matt
Carlos, you once said, ‘The early nineties was a very energetic period in graphic design as a whole, and there was plenty of acceptance to go around for different points of views.’…The idea of good/bad design cycles, in the same way there are economic boom/bust periods, is interesting. What was the best/worst era of design during your career? What kind of era are we in now?
Jim
I think the mid 80’s were important for attitude and bold layouts in advertising anyhow
Richard
80’s - best of my experience. Graphic design was a well-respected profession. Our point of view was sought out. Clients competed for our attention. There was a great deal of mystery around what we did and why.
Carlos
the period we are in now is one of reservation
Carlos
especially in type
Jim
the beginning of the "ironic" voice
Jim
agreed carlos
Carlos
"helvetica" is in, and has been for some time
Carlos
we can’t wait to copy each other
Carlos
i think that sometimes our colleges define how good you are based on how good a copy you can make
Jason
Really interesting point, Carlos.
Jim
reworking old styles
Jim
instead of making new ones
Carlos
right
Jim
eventually we’ll be nostalgic for yesterday
Jim
or this morning
Matt
sounds very similar to music these days where remixing, mashups, sampling, etc. are growing in popularity.
Jim
interesting point
Jim
searching for authenticity
Carlos
right
Jim
things seem so temporary
Jim
we try to emulate stuff from the past that "mattered"
Jason
We’ve seen this from time to time with our products. Someone was so excited that they copied Tada List.
Jason
But what’s exciting about a copy? That’s saying "I don’t have anything new to offer."
Carlos
the US car industry is a great example
Carlos
trying to re-live the good old days
Jim
its everywhere guys
Jim
cars, music, movies, music
Matt
they all influence each other too obvs
Jim
its like paying an old song in a commercial
Jim
push button for emotion
Matt
heh, when i hear "lust for life" on a carnival cruise commercial or janis joplin selling mercedes benz, it makes me crazy. wtf?
Jim
‘(we sound like a bunch of old grampas)
Jim
grrrr fucking kids’
Richard
flibidy-floo
Carlos
this lack of respect for craft blends into the landscape and the by product is that things start to NOT matter. They are seen as "old".
Carlos
we need to change that
Carlos
don’t apologize for it
Carlos
some people actually look up to us
Matt
i think it’s good for kids to hear people stand up for what they believe in. don’t give up the fight.
Matt
ok, shifting gears: Between T-26, 5-inch, Jewelboxing, The Show, and Lavaluva, you’ve all got your own products you’re creating and selling. How’s that compare to doing normal client work? Is that something you’ve always wanted to do? Or did it result out of a frustration with the typical client-designer relationship?
Carlos
both
Jim
both
Carlos
but it is a personal goal to control my destiny
Jim
that’s totally it
Matt
So the ideal is no client work?
Carlos
YES!!!
Jim
to give ourselves the room to be picky about when and if we take client assignments
Carlos
ditto
Matt
gotcha.
Richard
So, everything comes full circle… We began as our own clients and will end (survive) that way.
Richard
Some of the most exciting work I see today is in Industrial Design. If I had to start over again, I might go that way.
Matt
RB, what industrial design excites you?
Matt
For all: Any dream clients? Specific design/redesign job you wish you could do?
Jim
I have always wanted to try and work on JUST ONE THING for an extended period of time
Richard
Focus… that’s a great thing.
Jim
just take the time to make ONE THING PERFECT
Jason
Jim I love that idea.
Jason
What freedom — to just work on one thing and nail it.
Matt
any one thing in particular?
Jim
I dunno, a film, a magazine, a house
Richard
So much of client work doesn’t allow focus. In fact, it discourages it. And, certainly, doesn’t reward it.
Jim
exactly
Richard
That’s a great point, Jim, in so many ways.
Richard
Years ago, it was not so unusual to be working with one client on one thing for one or two years. That doesn’t happen any more. Our attention and focus is fragmented.
Richard
So, the results show it.
Jim
if I was a contractor I could go home open a beer and say "I built that this month"
Jim
I’m always doing 20 things
Jim
I like to think I do them well and I get a rush from Full Panic Mode
Matt
def something to that though i wonder if it could also be a grass is greener thing. perhaps once you have just one thing to work on you yearn for the variety of diff projects.
Jason
Something I find interesting though… Each one of you guys owns and runs your own business, yet you’re still looking for ways to run it the way you want to run it. What’s holding you back? You’ll never have more freedom than you have now.
Jim
we have employees and mortgages and tuitions
Jason
"Our…" "Not any more…" This all sounds very unfortunate. Isn’t it up to you? You run your business.
Jim
or does the business run you?
Jim
don’t tell anyone but
Jim
it’s a big improvisation
Jim
and anyone who runs a creative firm and tells you differently is lying to you
Jim
or lying to herself
Jason
Yeah, that’s why we got out of the client business ;)
Jim
:)
Jason
I guess in many ways Jewelboxing, t26, and 5inch are those side projects that allow you to do it the way you want to do it.
Matt
re: improv…i’ve been seeing comedians live quite a bit lately and i find there seems to be an 80/20 mix that the best ones go for: 80% established material and 20% untested or improvised material. i wonder if there’s something to that sorta formula. keeps cycling in some freshness but have enough trusted material to keep you afloat.
Richard
Our approach to initial ideation is a lot like that now… allowing untested ideas into the mix. It’s actually been quite successful.
Matt
RB, you seem to experiment with new processes and ways of working. do clients respond to that? or is it tough to convince them that stuff matters?
Richard
Clients love new processes as long as they don’t have to buy it ;)
Carlos
true
Carlos
btw… With T26, it was good to contribute to the industry and change the category. I feel proud of that.
Matt
CS, what’s been the biggest impact of T26 on the industry?
Carlos
wow
Carlos
there were really a lot
Carlos
and since it’s been 12 years now
Carlos
they seem to be forgotten
Carlos
giving credit to designers, permitting relaxed licensing, allowing service bureaus to use the font for output, donating funds to non-profits (AIDS), displaying spreads for each font, creating a "music video" for each font, our limited edition font kits, and many many more, are just a few of the innovations T26 put on the market.
Jim
for me personally the most fun is learning something new
Jim
running your own thing gives you that freedom
Jim
and it’s powerful
Matt
JC, what are some new things you’ve learned recently?
Jim
we’re working on this photo project and we’re creating a way to do the backdrops digitally
Jim
most of the learning comes with the goofing around
Jim
which is essential;
Matt
Carlos, what’s your dream client or (re)design job?
Carlos
anything car related
Carlos
i recently started CarType.com and I LOVE IT
Carlos
i need to find a way to make some cash with that
Matt
What car-related design is most exciting to you right now?
Carlos
well
Carlos
again, i love type, so i especially like the relationship of how type is used on cars, from the readability of the speedometer, to the engine numbers stamped an the frame, and what they mean
Richard
Recent interests: Back in 1978, Todd Rundgren and I were the only people on the planet (maybe) writing 3D software on an Apple II. Over the last 3 years or so, I’ve been revisiting design in 3D.
Jason
Here’s something I’m genuinely interested in… When’s the last time any one of you were a client? What was that experience like?
Jason
One thing I’ve realized is that being a client is hard.
Jason
I learned it when I hired some people to work on my house. It’s tough to trust people that can have so much impact on something that’s yours.
Jim
never a client, really
Jim
not in the design or ad biz
Richard
Oh, geez. I’ve been a client of architects a few times. One very bad experience, one very good. Bad experience: the designers simply didn’t listen to requirements. Good experience: very collaborative.
Carlos
i’ve had only 6 good clients in my career. I define one as "allowing me to do what they hired me to do". I try very hard to do the same when i hire someone. We are "clients" in our daily lives more often than we care to admit.
Jim
C and J and R
Jim
are you control freaks?
Richard
I don’t want to admit it, but way too often. Yes, a control freak. Only recently did my own Mother admit to me that my grandfather said, "Little Ricky’s gonna have a hard time when he grows up… He wants everything to be just so." I was 5, maybe, at the time.
Jim
hehe
Carlos
i admit it too
Carlos
but
Carlos
i do not apologize for it
Carlos
i am more open to permitting people to grow than you’d think
Carlos
i just expect a lot
Carlos
common sense is not so common any more, so I feel like i am often disappointed with basic human behavior.
Jim
I try to hide it, sometimes successfully
Richard
Yeah, expectations are high.
Matt
i don’t think you can do what you guys do w/o being a control freak.
Matt
and i don’t think it’s necessarily a bad quality.
Richard
Certainly. Some of the most respected designers in any discipline are known to be "tyrants" and perfectionists.
Jim
I don’t take over jobs
Jim
I just never give them up to begin with!
Matt
heh
Matt
SHIFT: How much do you separate your work from your life? Has that balance changed over the years? Is your goal to integrate them as much as possible or keep them separate?
Carlos
it has changed in a big way for me
Carlos
i worked 24/7 for years
Carlos
now (perhaps because I am older and sick of the bullshit) i take more time to enjoy what I believe i have earned
Richard
I’m a slob at home… and there’s little evidence of what I do for a living. That’s not at all a conscious decision.
Richard
Meanwhile, I’ve measured every centimeter of our office in some way.
Jim
keep the working hours and locations separate
Jim
i’ve made a decision that I WILL NOT work at all when I’m home w/ the fam
Jim
work is too dominant in my life
Carlos
it is in mine too
Richard
Like Carlos, I work way too hard and too long. So, I don’t too it at home by default.
Jim
but I don’t feel stuck, just a bit unbalanced
Jim
having 3 kids is making a difference
Matt
i bet!
Matt
Last one…What’s been your biggest mistake? What did you learn from it?
Carlos
i now search for greater importance in the jobs i take
Carlos
i feel like it all is for not sometimes
Matt
CS, how do you define "importance"?
Carlos
how do I define "importance"? i define it as not doing something for the simple sake of it, and in hopes of making a real difference in the category that I am working in. Even better, if i can do something that will be a positive and helpful solution. Out "cooling" someone is just a simple easy and empty thing to do.
Jim
I waited forever to start my own thing
Jim
wasted 3-5 years
Matt
JC, what was holding you back?
Matt
fear?
Jim
fear
Jim
laziness
Richard
Biggest mistake is ongoing. Somewhere along the line, I’ve become aware of risk. In best of times, the concept of risk never entered my mind. Just go with the flow and things happen. I’d like to recapture that.
Jim
I truly believe my greatest mistakes are ahead of me
Matt
JC, u sound optimistic about that. as perhaps you should be.
Jim
something to look forward to


Richard Bird art directing in 1979:
Bird

18 comments so far (Jump to latest)

Coudal 27 Jul 06

Thanks for inviting me guys, it was a fun discussion. Reading it over now I think I ought to say that I do realize that I’m as guilty as anyone of robbing the past to design the present, esecially when to comes to typography. My current torrid affair with Avant Garde Gothic is an indictment all by itself and even when I find myself ‘cheating on my steady’ it’s more often than not lately to sneak off for a quick rendezvous with Didot.

Jason Santa Maria 27 Jul 06

What a fantastic chat. Thanks for sharing! It was not only motivational but inspirational.

ML 27 Jul 06

Have a suggestion for a future Campfire chat? Post it here. An ideal suggestion would include 2-3 participants and a specific topic you’d like to see them discuss.

Bird 27 Jul 06

Thanks, too, for the invite. How fast an hour goes by in Campfire, a real productivity burner ;)

(btw, I had no intention of implying that Muller-Brockmann, Rand, or Lois were “history,” as in no longer relevant. Quite the opposite, of course.)

Cameron 27 Jul 06

Thanks for the chat, it really helps to see it from the perspective of someone who has been doing this for years. Sometimes I wonder if the first year of working for yourself is the hardest. I guess its all the same, you just get used to it!

Mark Boulton 27 Jul 06

Fascinating. Inspiring. Wonderful to be able to share your thoughts with us.

Mark Boulton 27 Jul 06

Fascinating. Inspiring. Wonderful to be able to share your thoughts with us.

Josh Williams 27 Jul 06

Love it. Good stuff fellas. The Fireside Chats are one of the best segments I’ve seen at SVN.

I’d love to hear a conversation with Jake and Jacob of SkinnyCorp/Threadless, and perhaps Rob (or one of the other guys) from Etsy discussing community-driven online marketplaces.

Jeff Croft 27 Jul 06

Great chat. Very inspiring. Thanks so much to all three of you, and thank you, 37signals, for doing these. They’re really great.

Seth Thomas Rasmussen 27 Jul 06

Richard,

“Back in 1978, Todd Rundgren and I were the only people on the planet (maybe) writing 3D software on an Apple II. “

Is that the same Todd Rundgren that didn’t want to work, but rather bang on the drum all day?

Bird 27 Jul 06

Seth, Yes. Same guy. Todd and I both owned the first and last graphics tablet that would interface with an Apple II, made by Apple. Todd was an early pioneer in “computer graphics,” starting his own company aptly named, Utopia Software, Woodstock, NY. His paint program (can’t remember the name of that) was the only program available at the time that supported the Apple graphics tablet.

benny 27 Jul 06

A very good question, Seth, I am curious of that as well =)

And a quick look at Wikipedia answers yes.

Madison Guy 27 Jul 06

Why art in the schools matters. Some additional thoughts on Arshile Gorky and the New York Times story. “>http://letterfromhere.blogspot.com/2006/07/challenging-students-to-think-about_27.html> Challenging students to think about challenging art.

Madison Guy 27 Jul 06

Why art in the schools matters. Some additional thoughts on Arshile Gorky and the New York Times story. “>http://letterfromhere.blogspot.com/2006/07/challenging-students-to-think-about_27.html> Challenging students to think about challenging art.

JOe 27 Jul 06

“shock and awe”? I had no idea Donald Rumsfeld was a craftsman and design leader!

Cheshire Dave 27 Jul 06

Another very engaging discussion. I’ve been in the business for some 15 years (also getting into it by accident), but since I’ve usually been part of a small (or one-person) design department and haven’t been involved in many design organizations, I don’t often get a chance to hear other designers talk shop. I really like the informality of the Fireside Chat structure.

I’m intrigued by the notion of beautiful inside/beautiful outside in terms of web design (and whatever else applies). I’d love to see a discussion about that. The only person I can think of at the moment to include would be Patric King. Maybe Jon Hicks? Jason Santa Maria?

Ismo 28 Jul 06

I’m 23 years old. I’ve been ran my own business something about 10 years now.

Jim: “or does the business run you?”

My brains stopped when I read Jim’s quote. I just noticed, that “freedom of working” is just an illusination to me.

Work and life balance:
I have 8/8/8 -rule which means 8 hours working, 8 hours friends/home/alone, 8 hours sleeping.
I don’t follow that everyday. But in long-run Yes.

Geoff DiMasi 29 Jul 06

If you want to read some further thoughts on beautiful inside/outside, check out the biography of artist Robert Irwin. He would spend a great deal of time making his painting surface (wall, canvas, etc.) perfect so that it was a solid piece.

Much like caring about good code and good design, at the same time.

It is:
Seeing Is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees: A Life of Contemporary Artist Robert Irwin by Lawrence Weschler

He currently crafts the most incredible site-specific installations. If you are interested in craft, you should also check him out…

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