10 Jan 2003 | paul said...

i own a german car too (a VW GTI, 2000). for the most part, it's a pile of shit.

electrical stuff goes on it all the time, it's had about half a dozen manufacturers defects, it only came with a 2 yr 40,000k warranty (which is 4 times less than most), and the service the dealership i take it to is worse than any customer service i've ever had in my life.

german engineering has really gone down hill in my books. at least where VW is concerned. sure it looks pretty (it's factory orange), and handles nicely, but it's not worth it because it's always broken, and not even 3 years old yet.

my next car is going to be a nissan i think, because god knows i'm not going to go with anything north american! :)

10 Jan 2003 | ek said...

I'm also looking to make the switch from a VW family car (in my case an Audi) to a Japanese car, probably the Honda Accord coupe. I have to admit that a part of me will be sad to see my existing car go because it really is a fabulous car inside and out, but it's simply too expensive to own and, as Jason noted, it guzzles gas like you wouldn't believe. I also sometimes lie awake at night thinking about how much more the car will cost to maintain after its four year warranty expires.

Thus my inclination towards Honda. When I picked up the brochure I was blown away when I saw the Accord engine's tune-up interval; 105,000 miles! The first tune-up on my Audi was at 10,000 miles and, for most German cars, I think it's usually 5,000 miles. I also have happy memories of my sister's first car, a Honda Civic, that stayed in the family for over 10 years and was still going strong when my dad eventually sold it.

And, the thing is, even though the new Accord provides ample power (240 hp in V6 form), it's still relatively low on fuel consumption and very low on emissions. Here's a snippet from a review of the Accord from MSN Carpoint:

There also is the smooth new 3-liter Accord V6, which has 240 horsepoweror fully 40 more than the previous V6. Despite the added punch, fuel economy has been improved slightly and emissions are lower. The V6 makes the Accord impressively fast and loafs at 2300 rpm at 75 mph.

So Honda managed to make the engine both more powerful and more fuel efficient and cleaner. Why can't anyone else, including the Germans, seem to be able to do this?

And, oh yeah, Japanese cars also all have better navigation systems.

10 Jan 2003 | Darrel said...

I have a Civic. 125k on it with only one problem...I had a bad fuel pump.

When I took it in, the mechanic encouraged me to double check that I just wasn't out of gas...because 'civics never break down'. I thought that was testimonial enough to stick with the Honda ;o)

10 Jan 2003 | SU said...

If Honda made an AWD wagon, I'd switch in an instant. I like my Subaru, but there's nothing outside of a Toyota or Honda when it comes to complete and utter reliability. My last car was a Honda... My next one will be, too.

I know it's an SUV, technically, but I am starting to dig the Pilot. Even that car gets 22 mpg (highway), which is not horrible.

10 Jan 2003 | ek said...

Isn't that just amazing? I mean, that's Honda's least expensive car and yet it is just bulletproof.

I hear and read so many complaints from owners of VW's entry-level Golfs and Jettas, which are more costly than the Civic.

10 Jan 2003 | ek said...

Yeah, I've been hearing nothing but good things about the Pilot and the Acura MDX, which is its close cousin.

I hear you, though, about AWD and the wagon format. I will very much miss my car's AWD capability and copious cargo capacity. It's too bad that Honda stopped making a wagon version of the Accord, but I guess people just stopped buying them.

I was surprised to find that Honda doesn't even make a normal hatchback version of the Civic anymore. There's the Civic Si, which is a hatchback, but it's souped up for performance and only comes in manual.

10 Jan 2003 | steve said...

Reliability isn't really a mainstay of German engineering. You can't just put gas in them, change the oil every 5,000 miles, and never worry. When you buy a German car, I think you need to do so with the expectation that you can't let regular maintenance fall by the wayside. I have an A4 Avant and the warranty coverage couldn't be better haven't paid a dime for maintenance in the past 3 years. Of course, the warranty just expired, so I might be singing a different tune down the road.

10 Jan 2003 | paul said...

as much as i hate suvs, the murano is probably one of the most handsome cars out there right now (other than the 350z that is).

this entry (and the two linked from it) is why i'll never buy VW again. i can't believe their customer service caller actually hung up on me before i finished my story about why the service was poor at the dealership i take it to...

10 Jan 2003 | Steve (one of many) said...

The quality of German engineering depends on which German car you buy. VW has had reliability issues for decades. Opel is crap (figures, what with it being GM). Audi, even though it's a VW company, is generally pretty solid. Mercedes and BMW are generally bulletproof.

But, yeah, you have to keep up with maintenance. That's the case for pretty much any car. Maintenance costs can be an issue with German cars.

Whether that's a good thing or not depends on what you want out of your car. For me, excellent handling, cornering and overall performance - in short, being fun to drive - is what I want. That's why my next car will be German, and why my cars before have been German (my current car is Japanese, but it's a Mazda, who tends to build theirs to handle more like German cars). If you want reliability, go Honda or Toyota. I personall wouldn't, because I find their design either boring (Toyota) or butt-ugly (Honda), and they're both rather boring cars to drive.

10 Jan 2003 | Don Schenck said...

My SAAB is old, and I purchase it old, so it's hard to say. Our Buick (Rendezvous) is young - too soon to say. It does, however, get 22 mpg *or more* on the highway, which is decent considering it seats seven.

My next car will probably be another Toyota MR2 Spyder. God, I miss that car. ;-( (see my web site, above)

10 Jan 2003 | Lord said...

You ask "Does German engineering just mean faster with better buttons and nicer leather?". Oh yes it does. Let's start in 1886 when two German engineers developed the first car in the world - Gottlieb Daimler and Carl Benz. They also were the first manufacturer to use a Diesel engine - invented by another German engineer named Rudolf Diesel. Today their firm is known as Mercedes-Benz. The first computer in the world was also invented by a German, Konrad Zuse. Same goes for the rocket, the jet engine, syntetic fuel, the fuel cell and a lot more. The discovery of the nuclear chain reaction which led to a revolution in physics and engineering was also done by a German - Albert Einstein.

Well, that's German engineering.

And now to the old rivalary between Japanese and German cars. You ask "Why cant they engineer a more reliable car?". Well, in the European ranking for reliability Mercedes-Benz holds the record. It's on top in the 3, 4, 10 and 15 year period. The most innovative car company worldwide is Mercedes-Benz with over 200 inventions each year followed by BMW and Audi. They also top the security ranking. Only three cars pass the tightest security test for cars (European standards) - two of them are Mercedes-Benz.

"German cars just love the taste of gas they cant get enough". That depends on what you buy. Let me remind you that VW offers the least consumptive fuel engine in the world. The problem here is that these small engines aren't available in the US. German manufacturers tend to sell their bigger engines. When American friends of mine come to Germany they are always surprised how many "new" cars and engines they come across.

Another interesting thing: When a car magazine asked the founder of Toyota, Mr. Toyoda, why all Lexus models looked so similar to a Mercedes he said: "The biggest honour for an original is a copy."

10 Jan 2003 | Mike said...

I drive a 1995 Ford Explorer which purchased new off the lot. I average 20 MPG around town, I change the oil about every 10k miles, the odometer reads 132k miles. Other than my 2 sets of tires (one set free courtesy of Firestone) and a small piece of plastic that fell off the door I have had zero problems. It runs just as well as the day I drove it off the lot. I don't have any idea what my next car will be because I don't think I will be needing one any time soon.

10 Jan 2003 | Benjy said...

As someone who's year old Jetta was (again) in the shop this week, I still don't ever see myself not driving a European car. They are just hands down so much better in terms of styling and performance.

Japanese cars are just so soulless and American cars, well they just suck for the most part. I had a Lexus ES300 and couldn't wait to get rid of it. While it was a hand-me-down, it wasn't anywhere near bulletproof. And while my Jetta has done a great job of shooting down my reasoning for buying a new car, namely no trips to the mechanic, I still enjoy it a lot more than my old car.

Of couse, this is coming from the guy who's counting down the day until Alfa Romeo comes back to the U.S. ...

10 Jan 2003 | ek said...

It's really all about priorities. When I bought my car I thought that all the pluses would outweigh the minuses, but I've realized that, for me, they don't.

And, if having a soul means being flawed then, well, I'll go with soul-less -- at least for my car. But, in my opinion, having soul and being reliable should not be mutually exclusive.

As for the utter superiority of German engineering, past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. Go ask 100 C-Class owners what their experience with the car has been like and more than half will report significant problems. Same with BMW and the mysteriously self-destructing engine in the M3. And I won't even mention the myriad of electrical problems that 7-series owners have been experiencing (oops, I guess I just mentioned it).

Next, go sit in a Merc. M-Class and explain to me how it is so superior. That car is a POS and its interior is just shameful -- it really gives plastic a bad name.

As for Lexus copying Mercedes, perhaps so, but Lexus also handed Mercedes, BMW, and Audi their asses when the LS-series was introduced. German car enthusiasts owe Lexus a debt of gratitude for forcing the German car makers to get their acts together again.

10 Jan 2003 | Darrel said...

Japanese cars are just so soulless and American cars

I know quite a few souped-up-civic teenagers would disagree with you on that ;o)

Granted, nothing beets a VW for 'soul'.

The ONE big problem with the Honda's...namly the civics, is that they are incredibly easy to steal. I'd think Honda could do a bit to improve that situation.

10 Jan 2003 | Don Schenck said...

Lexus IS 300 has soul.

10 Jan 2003 | pb said...

Yep. I know it sounds goofy, but VW's just feel so much better driving. I'm sort of a sucker for the Fahrvegnugen and such, but I think there's something there.

Supposedly the VW's made in Germany more reliable than those made outside.

10 Jan 2003 | fajalar said...

My 1998 VW Golf (hecho de mexico) has been a great car. I have had to replace the entire exhaust system (about $500 with the dealer) because Illinois still salts their roads abd I didn't know that when I moved here.

The only other problem is that the check engine light is always on, but nothing is wrong with it. So when I take it if for LOF I have them check the computer for anything wrong.

Great car, but I am outgrowing it. Thinking about a Saturn VUE.

But great advice for anyone is at www.consumerreports.org.

10 Jan 2003 | Stephanie said...

OH I HATE MY GERMAN CAR. I drive a 98 Beetle. Biggest pile of crap of all time. Every thing in that car has broken- the cup holders, the radio, the glove box, the switch to get the gas tank open, the seats, the vents, the defroster, the air bags... The check engine light comes on about once a month, and the outside is literally FALLING off. My only advice to people is NEVER EVER EVER EVER buy a Volkswagon.

10 Jan 2003 | birdman said...

True. True. At one point in time I said I would never by a German car (too expensive). But having bought one, it's the nicest auto experience. It is also the most problematic. Sure, all the repairs are "covered," but the hassle of getting the car in and out of the shop is beginning to bother. Gas mileage stinks, too. And looking at other models from the same brand... they all get lousy mileage. What's up?

10 Jan 2003 | fajalar said...

I forgot to mention my gas mileage. 28 city 32 highway. Started out 5 years ago at 30/34.

Pretty decent.

The only european cars in the consumer reports "best bet" categories are the BMW 3-series and the SAAB 9-5.

The reliability risks include VW New Beetle, Volvo S-series, Merc M-Class.

If I had to buy a (new) european car next, it would be a 2001/02 Passat. Or a Mini. But that's about it. I might get a european edition of a volvo. Is it my imagination, or do the european versions of cars come with fewer "luxury" items that tend to cause all the problems in the first place.

10 Jan 2003 | ~bc said...

The one Euro mark who has the most loyal (and coincidentally, most educated and most internet savvy, per capita) repeat customers is SAAB. I'm here to testify on behalf of them (unfortunately Don hasn't had his long enough to be able too, plus he doesn't have the turbo, which of course is half of the modern Saab aura).

I own a 89 900 Turbo 3-dr, with over 250,000 miles on it. It gets milage in the 25-30 range (yes, with the turbo, that's the benefit of the 2.0 4-cyl) is a gas to drive (while not sucking gas and polluting little). Plus it would drive right through a Golf or Civic. If I had to be in one car with an American Gas guzzler barreling down on me, it would be a Saab.

Reliable? Yes. Does it cost a bit in the shop? Yes, but unlike other manufacturers, this stat is going down two ways: parts are getting cheaper (thanks to GM's Euro parts bin, which Saab can use, adapt or engineer their own), and Saabs are getting even more reliable. Does it go in the snow? Hell yeah. They more-or-less invented front wheel drive, slap some snow tires on (I recommend Nokian), and laugh as the 4x4s are being pulled out of the ditches along the highway. Do they last long? Ha, you'd think they invented mileage as well.

I have however moved to Boston, and the car stayed with family in CT. I miss it terribly. Disclosure: my next car (when my girlfriend's Jetta [she couldn't drive stick, so her car came with us to share] goes) may be a Subaru WRX, if it's not a Saab 9-3, only because I'm a huge rallye fan, and they're my fav team. Oh and the car kicks ass, it's no wonder they're known as the Saab of Japan.

So to get a quality Euro car, +good milage, emissions, safety, and without all the snottyness, go Saab.

11 Jan 2003 | jedrek said...

One thing a lot of people can't seen to realize (at least this is what I'm getting from the conversation) that the localization of the factory is that just as important as the brand of car. German cars built in America are not the same as German cars built in Germany. Japanese cars assembled in America aren't the same as those in Europe, and so on. I don't know what the beef you have with VW is, but here they go as some of the most reliable cars arround. And the Audis are just... amazing. Alfa Romeo on the other hand... On the other hand, Volvos - which are held in high regard all over Europe (and in the states, if for no other reason than safety) are treated in Sweden like Fiats or Fords.

11 Jan 2003 | Deutschlnderwrstchen said...

Our tanks are still great.

11 Jan 2003 | alisha said...

the localization of the factory is that just as important as the brand of car. German cars built in America are not the same as German cars built in Germany.
---
Very true. BMW, Mercedes, VW and Audi all have incredible reliability and performance here in Germany. But in the US they arent as good. Also the standards and laws are totally different - theyre much tougher here. Can you imagine an American having to go to TUEV every 2 or 3 years? HA! I have a BMW 3-er (4 yrs old), and although Ive never had any problems, Ive had friends who have had massive problems with thiers (brand new roadster and an older 5-er sedan). Expensive as hell too. I also dont like how high the BMW revs. In 5th gear going 160 kph, the thing is so loud (between 4-5) you have to yell at eachother. Audi is clearly the superior car here in Germany. They are beautifully engineered. they have the best advertising too ;-) Mercedes last the longest and the old farts always drive them. Hondas are virtually unknown here. Sad - I always loved my civic - best little car I ever had.

I read that 17% of all German automobile exports go to the US and that the demand for upscale brands have tripled in the last 2 or 3 years. Since the automobile industry is the biggest industry here, and since Germany is the second largest exporter in the world, thats a pretty heavy number.

11 Jan 2003 | p8 said...

Alisha said: "BMW, Mercedes, VW and Audi all have incredible reliability and performance here in Germany."

Same here in Holland.
You want a reliable car? You buy a German car.
You want a unreliable car? You buy an Alfa Romeo.
You want a low mileage? You buy an American car.

I have a 66 Chevy Nova station, with a 350ci V8. The mileage is pretty low, but I enjoy driving every mile. It's a lot of fun. Plus it rides on LPG which is three times less expensive than petrol (and less polluting). Also the distances aren't that great over here and I use my bike a lot more (even the former Prime-Minister went to work on his bike).
Parts are expensive though. But old cars are a lot easier to maintain (no complicated computer stuff).

11 Jan 2003 | mal said...

A lot of the responses from US readers state that VWs have awful fuel economy. Like pretty much every other European reading this, I'm staggered to hear that. What sort of MPG are we talking?

(BTW, for any UK-based readers, remember that US gallons are smaller than UK gallons, so you'd expect US MPG figures to be lower than UK figures - explanation.)

11 Jan 2003 | jedrek said...

The whole VW trio is kicking ass right now: Audi (A4, A6, A8) - luxury, VW (Golf, Passat) - midrange, Seat (Toledo) - lower midrange, Skoda (Octavia, Superb) - low end. Great, great stuff. The new BMWs are losing soul (well, the 7 series has it... and the 330D is just incredible) compared to the E30s and even the E36s. I wonder when they'll start making cars for drivers again.

BTW: At the begining of the 90s, central europe's 2 main car manufacturers were on sale: FSO (Poland) and Skoda (Czech Republic). Daewoo got FSO, VW bought Skoda. Guess who got the short end of the stick...

11 Jan 2003 | JF said...

Just for the record... My car (2001 Audi S4) has been great. I love it. It's really fast (250 HP twin turbo V6), practical (4-doors), has quattro all wheel drive (key in Chicago), equipped with a beautiful interior (Audi is known for their best of breed fit and finish), etc. But, what's really bugged me is the little things that have put the car in the shop. So far I've had a brake fluid leak that took 4 shop visits to figure out, a radio that slips out of tune without being touched, and a windshield washer fluid leak. All this and my car only has about 15K miles on it. THAT's what bothers me.

Before my Audi I had an Acura Integra GS-R for about 4.5 years and the thing was never in the shop once (except for oil changes).

Sigh.

11 Jan 2003 | ek said...

Same here, I love (soon to be past tense) my Audi, but in the year and four months that I've had it it's been in the shop, I believe, five times (and the thing only has a bit over 9,000 miles on it). Nothing major, but I shouldn't have to bring the freaking thing in five times in less than a year and a half (and my car was made in Germany at Audi's famed Neckarsulm plant in fact).

And the dealer service is horrible at best. I brought the car in just this past week because of a rattle coming out of the passenger side A/C vent. Dealer kept it overnight. I pick it up the next day and, after a half hour of driving (which is the interval that I told the dealer the rattle occured at) guess what, the damn thing still rattles. And I don't mean a nearly silent, squeaky rattle, I mean a constant buzz-like rattle that you can hear even with the radio on.

And on my last dealer visit I had to have the motor for the driver's side window replaced (window would go down, but not up -- very inconvenient). When about 40 minutes out of my way to go to a dealer that was supposed to be better than most. Leave work early to pick up the car and bring it home only to realize that door lock and seat memory switches on the driver's door no longer work. Some dumb ass at the dealer forgot to reattach the cables, which meant another 40 minute trip back out to the dealer. These sorts of things just make the car so not worth it. And I don't even want to think about what it will be like when my warranty is up.

As for mileage, I'm embarrassed to say that I average about 16 miles per gallon combined city/highway (and that's premium gasoline). I might as well be driving a Chevy Suburban.

It's a hell of a car and part of me will miss it, but more of me will be glad to be rid of it. At some point, when I'm older, have more than one car and have more time on my hands I would definitely consider going back to a nice German car. But not until then.

12 Jan 2003 | andreas said...

may be you "german car" was manufactured in the US ;)

12 Jan 2003 | alisha said...

Same here, I love my Audi, but in the year and four months that I've had it it's been in the shop, I believe, five times (and the thing only has a bit over 9,000 miles on it).
---
thats crazy. My buddy Ric had a brand new roadster that was in the shop 3 times because of windows and electrical stuff not working properly, and after a year he finally took it back and got out of the lease. Theres no excuse for a new car to be in the shop AT ALL the first year. I would be pissed.
---
"...and I use my bike a lot more"
---
the dutch are so cool that way - theyre the kings of bike riding and the masters of tolerance. I love the Netherlands. whats LPG? is that like natural gas?

12 Jan 2003 | p8 said...

LPG is Liquefied Petroleum Gas. It mainly consists of propane and butane.

12 Jan 2003 | p8 said...

The masters of tolerance?
Some call it indifference. :)

13 Jan 2003 | Don Schenck said...

I miss my Spyder *sniff* ;-(

13 Jan 2003 | Paul Ringger said...

Owned a BMW 540i for three years. Great car. No problems to speak of. Also have a Mercedes E320. Good car too. They are expensive, there's just no getting around that.

13 Jan 2003 | hurley said...

After driving my 1990 Honda Civic 4wd min-wagon for 250,000 miles, I bought a Ford Focus ZX3 hatchback. Despite all the recalls (11 and counting) it's a great machine: it looks, feels, and drives like a European car, which is the market it was originally designed for. I borrowed my brother's Jetta for a weekend and I have to say that the Focus felt just as powerful and handled as well or better than the Jetta. The Focus was probably half the price and has better fuel economy.

13 Jan 2003 | pr said...

My 95 BMW 318ti has been the best car I have ever owned. Decent gas mileage, safe and sturdy, and the brakes are incredible. Not quite as cute or fast as my VW VR6 Corrado, but 1/20th the trouble.

13 Jan 2003 | mal said...

I borrowed my brother's Jetta for a weekend and I have to say that the Focus felt just as powerful and handled as well or better than the Jetta.

I have to say, I'm in awe of how much of a difference marketing can make to the perception of a car. Over here in the UK, the mere suggestion of a Jetta being a performance car would be laughed at. Before it was replaced by the Bora, it was considered a very frumpy, budget alternative to a Golf (a hatchback version that probably isn't available in the US). You'd always see them being sold second hand for rock-bottom prices. I nearly wet myself when I saw one in the Fast and the Furious. :)

Anyway, as for the Focus, they're mighty fine cars, but if I'm right, you only get the sedan version in the US? If so, you've drawn the short straw, as the 3-door hatchback's easily the best in the range. :/

Out of interest, are there any small cars that sell well in the US? I know the new Mini's gone down well (with the motoring press, at least), but does anything of a comparable size or smaller have the same level of interest? Oh, and lest we forget, the Mini is, to an extent, German engineering. :)

13 Jan 2003 | mal said...

D'oh! Ignore that question about the Focus hatchback. That'll teach me to read what I'm quoting. :)

13 Jan 2003 | hurley said...

We get all models of the Focus over here: three-door and four-door hatchback, sedan, and wagon.

We also get the VW Golf (which coincidentally was designed by the same guy who designed the Ford Focus).

I don't think the Jetta is sold as a "performance" car by any means, but it's definitely considered a step above the Golf -- it's priced between the Golf and the Passat.

Some small cars do well in the US -- the Honda Civic is a good seller, and I see lots of Toyota Echos on the road. Not everyone drives an urban assault vehicle (aka sport-utility vehicle). I lived several kilometers up a steep, twisty dirt road in Vermont for five years, and never had any trouble getting by with my 4wd Civic wagon. I even used it once to help a Jeep Cherokee get out of a ditch in mud season...I couldn't help being a bit smug after that!

14 Jan 2003 | Don Schenck said...

Toyotas are great, but their styling leaves something to be desired. I loved my Spyder, but it was ... "funky".

Hondas -- is there a better car? But they are missing that "something" ... that "soul". They remain fantastic cars, however. The S2000 is one I'd consider.

Nissan is definitely on the right track now. And Mazda has some impressive offerings in the works.

German cars? Other than a Boxster S, I'll pass.

Maserati is back in the U.S. -- that might be a good choice. Their Spyder is nice.

American-made?

14 Jan 2003 | fajalar said...

Hm. Sounds like this group needs to design a car.

14 Jan 2003 | gabe said...

My '92 BMW 325i has 133k on it and has been almost flawless. Besides the broken seat heaters and AC that has run out of refrigerant I can't think of anything that needs attention.

Compare this to a '93 BMW 325is I owned. Half the speakers tended to go out, a third of the interior lighting didn't work, the cd changer operated 1/4 of the time and I had a water pump go out on me. Granted the car had 120k on it when I most of this happened.

The one thing I can say about both these cars though - the joy of driving them more than out weighed the small electrical issues I had. If either had been anything but a BMW I would have sold them quickly and considered myself lucky. As it stands I sorely miss the one I sold and thoroughly enjoy the other I currently own.

The jury is still out for my relatively new MINI Cooper.

14 Jan 2003 | andrew said...

My wife and I bought a Jetta wagon last year, pretty much on a whim. We were bored one day, knew we needed to get a new car soon, and went shopping. We ended up buying the very first car we saw (after shopping around, of course.)

We love this car. We have had no problems with it, other than a broken latch on the armrest compartment and a minor interior scratch that the dealership fixed without issue. We also bought the best warranty coverage as well, so for five years, if anything goes wrong with this car, we just hand it over and say, "fix it."

We went to the Chicago auto show last year and took a look at the other cars that we probably should've actually test driven, and still love our car. Absolutely no regrets. The Volvo V40? Piece of crap, no head room. The Saab wagon? Crap. The BMW 3 series wagon is badass, though.

16 Jan 2003 | malross said...

Hm. Sounds like this group needs to design a car.

Give me a Mini Cooper S with a grown-up interior, a slightly more powerful engine, and better fuel economy and I'd be in heaven. Ok, so two of those things might conflict with one another, but I can dream. :)

16 Jan 2003 | Don Schenck said...

I want my MR2 Spdyer back. You have no idea.

16 Jan 2003 | hurley said...

Mal said:

Give me a Mini Cooper S with a grown-up interior, a slightly more powerful engine, and better fuel economy and I'd be in heaven.

Maybe you want a Honda Element or a Toyota Scion. Both of these vehicles look interesting to me...boxy and unusual designs, interiors spacious enough to live in on road trips...but mainly because of the headroom (I'm 6'4" tall so I don't fit comfortably into most cars). But their fuel economy is lousy, so I'll wait to see if they offer them as hybrids.

16 Jan 2003 | fajalar said...

Here ya go Don... it's on me.

ebay

29 Jan 2003 | 1992 Galant GTI said...

About the gas mileage.... ever heard of a DIESEL engine? If the American market didn't have this "diesel sucks" attitude, a lot of people wouldn't complain about mileage. The newer diesels are cleaner, more silent, and have tons of torque and power and even better fuel economy than before! Also, new inventions in filter technology render the diesel a very clean engine. And those of you whose German car is "fuel inefficient", maybe it's because German brands export their more powerful engines to America to satisfy this power desire. Also, check your driving style before you go and rant about a car maker. Our family's new 2003 MB E320 Avantgarde gets on average 8.6 liters of premium per 100 km...I'm not sure what the exact figure is in MPG, but it's definitely something like 30 MPG for a 1.7-ton car!

02 Feb 2003 | Brian said...

This discussion went from bad to worse when Lord spoke, 10-Jan-2003. He praises German cars and shuns American cars by using the past as a gauge to quality. It was not an intelligent argument to say the least.

I stand in the middle! I did research on 2 comparable automobiles. These two are in the same class. They are both 4 door sedans and they have very close horsepower ratings. I did not skimp on the engine of one to cook the numbers. The first car is the Chevrolet Impala 3.4 Liter V-6 Sedan. The second car is the Mercedes Benz C230 1.8 Liter I-4 Sedan.

I used MS Excel to do a direct comparison using autosite.coms comparison results. I scored one point for pricing, one point for options that were standard, 0.5 points for optional components, and 0 points for components that were not available. Along with this comparison I found the price on a replacement engine belt, front, and rear brake pads. I scored 1 point for better pricing on these parts as well.

The results were as follows: Chevrolet Impala 60, Mercedes C230 49. The score is in favor of the Impala 60 to 49 and Excel done all the work! This observation taught me something important. When you purchase a Mercedes, you will always pay more for the Image! That is it! You get nothing more but a car that is not common here in the United States. The sad thing most do not understand is this: 203,759 Mercedes Benzs were manufactured in Florida last year. Yeah, its a German car but it is built in America. On the flipside, GM and Ford have manufacturing facilities in Europe also.

Let us talk power between these two cars. The Impala has 180bhp/200ft-lbs of torque. The C230 has 189bhp/192ft-lbs of torque. How much is that on the wallet? The Impala is $116.00 per horsepower and the C230 is $149.00 per horsepower. The Impala had features that were not available at all on the C230. They were: rear spoiler, child safety locks, and a tire inflation monitor. You must bear in mind that I used the higher end Impala instead of the Chevrolet Malibu which would have been well below $100.00 per horsepower.

The moral here is that foreign cars are only how you perceive them. If you see them as higher quality then you are going to believe that at all costs. Personally, I have a friend who owns a Porsche 928. She has more trouble with it than it is worth.

Now time to defend American Vehicles, so get ready!

I have worked in a production environment for the past 9 years. The company I work for makes over 500 million dollars each year manufacturing Electric Motors and Gear Drives. I am a CAD Designer and very defensive when others attack us Americans with the who done it first theory. If we went off of that theory for everything built today only Americans would be flying, only Germans would be driving, and the Chinese would be the only people celebrating with Fireworks. Besides that, Thomas Edison (1847 Born on February 11th at Milan, Ohio) had 1,368 patents and even more Inventions. To say we Americans are not capable of inventing is just absurd. So, when you call the Germans to tell them how important their expensive cars are, think about the phone your using and where it came from.

What is high quality anyway? To understand quality you must first understand production which involves quality versus quantity. There are give and takes when trying to balance the needs of your product. In this case, the product is cars. We will compare Daimler Chrysler (maker of Mercedes) and General Motors to prove a point. Daimler Chrysler manufactured 4.666 million cars in 2000 compared to GMs 8.133 million. As I stated above, there is quality and there is quantity. If the quality is better then there must be a reason. I still find that debatable due to Machine limitations in all countries. Oh well, Daimler Chryslers production is 57% of GMs. Worldwide Mercedes factories have a total production that is only 38% of GMs production within the continental United States. That excludes 3.911 million cars produced elsewhere. This is why a cheap Mercedes will run you about $30,000 and a comparable Chevrolet costs $20,000. I obtained the manufacturing comparison numbers at oica.nets web site.

Now about my Truck and how proud I am to drive it every day. In 1997 I purchased a GM Chevrolet C1500 pickup with the Vortec 5.7Liter V-8. It now has 108,000 miles on it. It still averages 17.5 mpg! The tune up was scheduled by Chevrolet for 100,000 miles but my truck does not need it. Since I have had it, I changed the oil, tires, brakes, and water pump. Thats it! I accelerate through the power band almost all the time. This truck is the pinnacle of American brut force! I put a Flowmaster exhaust, Helix intake spacer, and a K&N air filter on it early on. It now has 290 horsepower and well over 360ft-lbs of torque. My 2 way 0-60 time is 7.4 seconds and this truck weighs 4,450 lbs! I can race Camero and Mustang V-6s, oh and V-Tech accords up to 80mph, then the wind gets me. Was I bragging? Yes I was because the hell I dish out to my truck every day goes un-noticed. The repair shops do not see me very often and I am going on 110 thousand miles.

The difference between me and typical buyers of American vehicles is that they buy and forget. I treat my truck well when it is parked. I use Mobil 1 fully synthetic, the transmission fluid is changed every 30,000 miles, belts are checked, and fluids filled. The typical Joe drives hard and expects the car to stay clean. This is another reason, aside from mass production, that many people have a perception of poor quality. These people will defend their standpoint of drive and forget, no matter the cost. I tell you what; give them a Mercedes for a year. I only give it 3 months! I think back on some of the places I have seen cars driven. lol

American buyers of Mercedes cars are usually upper class. They baby their cars and get them fixed at certified Mercedes dealerships. Only the best of everything is accepted and that must also be factored into the equation.

Well, that wraps up my 411 lesson on American vs German! Hope you enjoyed it? Ohfor the record Porsche only mass produces roughly 52,000 cars per year; that is 0.6% (not 6%) of GMs production. For the price, it should come with an electric butt wiper! See ya!

14 Apr 2003 | marvina said...

We own a 1996 Mercedes E320 from which we lost the knob, a little tiny knob that belongs to the side window control switch. Our repair shop claims we have to replace the entire unit because knobs are not sold separately! The cost: $433.00. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? Isn't there anyplace we might find a knob??

04 May 2003 | Tobey said...

German are the finest in the world.They build the first car.My 1982 VW Jetta (made in German) had 350,000 miles on it!My 1993 Mazda 323(made in Japan) had 123,000 when the motor died.Now I am driving a 98 VW Jetta made in Mexico(fake german car,only looks german,run like a german,but not a real german)It been a great car sometime slow!I would another VW.I heard the Vw GTIsome are in built in Germany other are built in Brazil.I own a lot of Japanese cars in teh past they have no SOUL at all.The only Japanese car that have soul is the68-73 Datsun 510.

12 May 2003 | chip said...

i have a vw, before that i had a toyota, and before that a honda. my friend has an opel gt from the 70's. both of them blow my japanese cars out of the water, hands down. this goes for bikes too. european bikes like bmw, guzzi, norton, triumph, all that, are just simply better bikes than the fast, but completely shitty japanese bikes.

18 Jun 2003 | tekdemon said...

Stumbled onto this site, and just felt like I had to add that the new(2001+ I think) Civics(the Si included) are actually fantastically safe, with full 5 star front and side impact ratings for the front seats and 4 for the rear. That's WITHOUT side air bags! It's even safer if you add the Side Air Bags.

Considering that I was in an accident which caused my 2002 Civic Si to be written off as a total loss, and that I'm alive and only have a minor knee injury from my knee hitting something, it's fantastic.

Someone here earlier posted "Plus it would drive right through a Golf or Civic. If I had to be in one car with an American Gas guzzler barreling down on me, it would be a Saab." Well, I had a huge Chevy pickup rear end me and shove me into a stopped car ahead of me on the highway(and he was doing highway speeds of course), and I'll tell you that the new Civics deserve those 5 star ratings. The car's totaled, but it basically saved my ass better than any other car anywhere even NEAR it's class.

So you ask me, I'd rather be in the Civic if I had to be hit by a big full size American Pickup or SUV. Factor in the fact that any (same year) SAAB is going to cost at least double a Civic, and I don't think you can diss the Civic for safety at all.

I wish I could say my Civic was fantastically reliable, but even though nothing ever went wrong, the fact that I hadn't even gotten to drive it more than 5000 miles kills any ratings I could give(I hadn't even changed the oil, since you should run the original fill to at least 5000 to break in the engine, although the manual does put oil change at 10,000, but it's always good to change more often, once it's broken in of course). However, I will still vouch for Honda's reliability, because a used 1989 Accord we bought, that had been in an accident even, ran 100% perfect until 2002 and even then all that happened was an engine overheat that was-in all honesty-not the car's fault, because a family member had neglected to maintain it for an amount of miles that was well above what the maintence schedule is supposed to be. Plus it was fixed rather quickly and cheaply, although we sold it.

From that experience I fell quickly in love with Honda. I drove that car occasionally too, and although other cars I've driven have been quieter(keep in mind it was 12 years old when I was driving it!), it still gave plenty of pep and handled plenty well! Plus the mileage was good too, I think we averaged around 25 or so.

Honda has more than ample reliability, and in my mind, I think to myself "If a 1989 Honda could go 13 years without problems, wouldn't a newer Honda last even longer?!!?!" And looking at the statistics Consumer Reports gave out a while ago, Hondas have gotten more and more reliable. So don't be surprised if you see an obscene amount of 15 year old Civics in 2018!

18 Jun 2003 | tekdemon said...

P.S. if anybody thinks Japanese bikes are "shitty" I'm guessing the Hayabusa doesn't ring a bell...I don't think the Hayabusa(AKA the Suzuki GSX1300R) counts as shitty no matter how biased you are. If you can't admit that there are awesome Japanese bikes, you really need to do a reality check on your objectivity.

23 Jun 2003 | Ben said...

i really like vw bora's (jetta's if u live in the usa) and was woundering the golf vr6 is 4wd right? so is the bora vr6 4wd? hey are very nice and are believe it or not made in germany!! far nice than a golf and has a boot!

23 Jun 2003 | Ben said...

i really like vw bora's (jetta's if u live in the usa) and was woundering the golf vr6 is 4wd right? so is the bora vr6 4wd? hey are very nice and are believe it or not made in germany!! far nice than a golf and has a boot!

20 Jul 2003 | John said...

I just wanted you guys to read Brian's comment. He made some really good points and proved to me that there is more to quality than where the car comes from. It is 02 Feb 2003 Brian. Read it, it is good. I am glad I drive an American car now, and I treat it like a wealthy person treats their $40,000 dollar Mercedes. I have no problems with it.

20 Jul 2003 | John Doe said...

Domestic Cars Gain in Reliability Survey
Greg Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, July 9, 2003; Page E02

U.S. carmakers as a group have surpassed their European rivals in vehicle dependability, but Japanese brands still get top marks in a new study released yesterday by J.D. Power and Associates.

The survey of 55,000 vehicle owners showed that while domestic and European brands were rated about even in quality at the time of purchase, complaints about some European cars -- most notably Mercedes-Benzes -- rose sharply after three years.

"This suggests that the domestics are doing better by putting more time and effort and monies into improving their design processes," said Brian Walters, senior director of product research at J.D. Power's headquarters in Westlake Village, Calif.

J.D. Power surveyed drivers who bought their cars in 2000 and asked them to pick from 147 problem areas, such as noisy brakes or pulling to one side. The industry average was 273 complaints per 100 vehicles; Japanese carmakers beat that mark, logging an average of 230 complaints per 100 vehicles.

J.D. Power, an independent market research firm, conducts several annual surveys that are closely watched within the auto industry and often used in advertisements to trumpet one brand over another.

Domestic makers were slightly worse than average at 282 complaints, while Europeans averaged 331. Detroit's Big Three -- General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and the Chrysler Group of DaimlerChrysler -- had pulled slightly ahead of the Europeans last year in the same survey but widened the gap significantly in 2003.

"Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans. While that's still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it's no longer the case for many of the Europeans," Joe Ivers, J.D. Power's executive director of customer satisfaction, said in a news release.

Toyota's Lexus division was the top-ranked nameplate for the ninth straight year, and Toyota was tops among companies that make a full range of vehicles. Porsche Cars North America, with a much more limited product line, edged Toyota for top corporate marks.

American Honda Motor Co. ranked third overall, while Nissan North America was fourth and BMW of North America rounded out the top five.

General Motors was the only domestic corporation with an overall score above industry average, and its Buick nameplate ranked third among individual brands. Ford Motor Co.'s Lincoln and Mercury also scored above average. No Chrysler scored above average.

As a whole, those rankings defy the notion that Detroit's products are inferior, Walters said. GM, in particular, "has developed [a reputation] over time as being a brand that's not known for good quality. But now things have changed and their quality has become better . . . but it takes a while for perception to be corrected," he said.

In J.D. Power's first long-term dependability survey, in 1990, Mercedes-Benz beat all other brands. This year it ranked 26th.

Two other brands -- Subaru and GMC (a General Motors truck brand) -- moved in the opposite direction, getting better reliability scores after three years than they did upon initial purchase.

J.D. Power previously conducted the dependability surveys after four or five years of ownership, but the firm said it switched this year to the shorter period to make it easier for companies to make design changes in response to survey findings. Cars and trucks are typically redesigned every four years or so.

2003 The Washington Post Company

05 Aug 2003 | FAS said...

Hey Lord! I hope this topic isn't so old that you don't get to read my reply. Apparently, being a german eurocentric has clouded your ability to deal with fact. I love how you chose to go back to the 1800's to get your argument formed as to how the Germans are the masters of engineering. How funny! I won't bother with how our Asian friends brought us standing armies, gunpowder, post offices, metallurgy, etc. etc..Cuz I don't see how the past is relevant. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Germans cars suck or any such thing. My point is that proof of Germans abilities at superior engineering are increasingly hard to find: Let me run this down for you:

- Do you know that in 1992 Porsche brought in a Toyota production team to revamp their entire 50 year tradition of building cars. Now they are nearer the japanese on the all important quality surveys than their fellow German car companies. (close but no cigar)Go to amamzon.com and buy a copy of "Lean Thinking" if you don't believe this fact.

- Porsche paid $160 for every 924/944 engine they produced to Mitusbishi for use of their patented balance shaft design.

- The new Cayenne is a grossly overpriced piece, and everyone of them comes with a tranny made by Aisin in Japan.

- Every new BMW comes with a Vanos variable valve timing system made by Aisin as well.

- It took Porsche the better part of 7 years to incorporate the features of a 1991 Honda NSX (variable valve timing, titanium connecting rods, etc.)

- Mercedes spends 8x as many dollars per car on warranty work than Lexus...THink about that for a minute. I do everyday on the freeway while counting the number of new Mercedes that have malfunctioning rear stoplights.

26 Sep 2003 | Doseck said...

I own a 2001 Volkswagen Golf. I have not had any serious problem, except for a slight oil consumption (which results from the previous owner using low-quality oil). The engine design dates back about 10 years (the old GTi 2.0 liter), and yet still manages to get 34 mpg. The engine is not going to be offered on the Golf V anymore, however, since it's design isn't the newest. It is an extraordinarily well crafted car, which handles beautifully and has been very reliable so far. In the past VW has had problems with electronics going bad, but they have tightened controls at their manufacturing plants (in Europe, at least). I do not know, what VW of America is doing wrong, hearing from dissatisfied VW customers on your page, but in Germany, which is where I'm from, Volkswagens count to some of the most reliable cars (we've owned about 7, and none of them have had any major problems). In Germany, Volkswagen oil service only had to be done every 30 000 km (about 20 000 miles), and VW builds some of the most fuel-efficient cars on the market. Such as the 3L Lupo or the 1L Prototype. Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have very much proven their reliability overseas, and considering that there is much more technology in a Mercedes-Benz, theres more electronics to go crazy sometimes than in a Lexus. Fuel consumption is claimed to be so high, because the German companies (sadly) only offer their high-end engines in the US. We also own a Honda Odyssey, which is a wonderful car to drive, the best minivan, period. I'm impressed by the V-Tech System, and the intelligent features. The quality and trim isn't as high as in a German car, but I have a lot of respect for Japanese engineering. There are many joint developments between Japanese and German companies, so those should make for very nice products. For me, the stylig, quality, technology safety and handling would just win it over for the German car.

07 Oct 2003 | Ex Patriated soul said...

stumbled on this site as well and had to comment..had a 91CRX Si and loved it from the test drive..it was my track racer and daily driver..kept it until 2000 and gave it to my brother who did the GSR swap etc..original motor had about 130,000 miles on it. No Problems EVER..My wife had a 91 Nissan SE-R before giving it to her brother at 130,000 miles also. No Problems Ever. We then bought BMW's..E46 Coupe and Sedan..first month, driver's side door turenschloss, central locking freezes up on the coupe..replaced..no problems until 3rd year where the sedan's window motors failed on 3 of the doors and sunroof was off track. We have also just replaced stabilisator and querlenker setups on both cars (ball joint and suspension pieces) Apparently BMW knows there is a problem with the original supplier of these parts and has since changed (according to many mechanikerin and Hoffman BMW Regensburg) so the parts were free but the labor wasn't. My Coupe currently has 35,000 miles and the sedan has 55,000. The cars do handle great and the engine is extremely reliable (no plastic impeller probs like the E 36) I drive mine consistently at 160-200Kph everyday. SO I do believe that some things are an acceptable annoyance for a car that does factor in "performance" in it's innate design DNA. (Failure of Window motors and doorlocks are unacceptable though) I will say the BMW inline 6 is perhaps the finest 6 cylinder motor ever made..the Honda inline 4 is perhaps the best and most technologically advanced motor in the world. I have since picked up (miss my crx) a 92 Miata (MX5) and that motor has over 250,000 K's on it (150,000 miles) I am also acquiring in the next week a 92 Accord EX coupe for a winter car. I live in Germany and am privy to witness the "reliability of German, Japanese, German/U.S.bound Market, cars and can say that the germans believe in all of their home market cars. It just depends on who you talk to. The Opel products here are very different from the GM ones we're subjected to. The only reason (i believe) that Cadillac tested the CTS over her on the Nurburgring was the Chassis is also used for the autobahn bound Opels. A car's environment definitely plays a factor in it's longevity. I believe our driving here in germany does expose the car to what it's engineers intended but what a lot of people do not realize is how beautiful 80% of the roads are over here (always maintained, hence the staus) I was back in Tampa one month ago and noticed how poor the interstates and even the subdivision roads are kept and it's no wonder they don't engineer the domestic products better..I also can't comprehend why someone would own a Porsche or M3 in the states..unless you were dragracing from stoplight to stoplight every few meters. Anyhow, I got off on a rant..to sum up if you want a car to be, out of the box:
Reliable =Japanese
Reliable Performance = German
Modified Performance = Japanese
Reliable,Performance,Soul, Modified = Miata
Now imagine (other than than Toyota redesigning the Bavarians production line that created the Boxster..there's a reason why the Mr. S looks like the Boxster but a few years later..) and created a J-DEM auto..JDM autocrossers know what I'm saying

18 Oct 2003 | Luke said...

I just purchased a 1987 Audi 5000 S and have a little problem getting the thing started. Usually when it is warmed up a bit. In the evenings I plug it in and don't have too much of a hard time starting it but not as easy as I would like. Are there any suggestions out there what the problem could be. Before I go and take it to a shop and get soaked for my savings I would love to get some advice.
Thanks for the help.

Luke Doxtator

18 Oct 2003 | Luke said...

My email address is [email protected]
Thanks again

21 Oct 2003 | Babs said...

I currently own a 2002 VW GTI. The fit and finish of this car along with the quality interior materials justify its extra cost. It keeps its resale value which comes in handy when you yearn to trade it in. The new 4 year warranty along with a new state of the art dealership won me over. Just the fact that so many car makes now offer some "GTI-like" vehicle must mean something. In addition, the GOLF is the worlds best selling car!

21 Oct 2003 | jane said...

I own a limited edition colour concept vw golf gti (1996). I love this car, it is fab but I am having a problem with it at the moment, it keeps conking out, it seems to go for approx 3 miles then the speedo needle drops and the car stops, I have had the recovery people out 3 times but they can't find the problem, I have taken it in to the vw dealer and had the car put on the diagnostic machine and still they can't find the problem. I have been told that I have to keep driving it and brake it completely so then perhaps they can find wots up. I would be grateful for any one out there to offer sensible suggestions as to what is up with my car, could it be a fuel problem? Or perhaps someone has had a similar problem.

26 Oct 2003 | Susan said...

Well I have a new beetle 2001 and it is aweful. All of the inside plastic pieces are falling off, the handles inside are peeling, it breaks down every couple of weeks. It has had 2 new starters and a battery, and it only has 17,000 k. But guess what there is no warranty. 2 years is all they give

27 Oct 2003 | Dana said...

Any Comments? Looking into buying a 2000 Audi S4. I know the car pretty well, but don't know anyone who owns one. Anybody out there with some 1st hand experience? Maintenence problems, great things to say...?
Thanks

28 Oct 2003 | Fritz said...

Let me say something nice about Mercedes. We had bought a1996 E300 Diesel and after it was broken in, it ran so efficiently that the air valve did not allow a sufficient volume of air to pass through under certain conditions, so that the engine would not have enough compression for ignition to take place. This manifested itself around 50-60 MPH by surging, as the engine cut in and out. MB could not mess with the setup so they gave me a '98 E320 replacement at an additional cost of only $5,000. I drove the new car as though it was my old Diesel, no Jackrabbit starts, hardly ever exceeded 3,000 RPM and I run it now on Super rather than high test. Guess what, it performs better than the Diesel I had 30 years ago: I average 28 MPG and at 69,000 miles I still have the original tires and brakes. The paint is phenomenal! I never waxed the car and it still looks like it just came from the show room except for some small scratches and chips on the windshield. As far as maintenance is concerned, I use synthetic engine oil as recommended. I changed to permanent antifreeze at 48,000 miles, rotate the tires every 6,000 miles and change the hydraulic brake fluid every couple of years. Remeber, This is a German Taxicab! You do not need to coddle this car. At 100,000 miles I'll take it in for 'B' service.

04 Nov 2003 | Dana said...

Audi S4 (biturbo) or BMW 330ci....performance or refinement, AWD or RWD, 6spd or 5spd, 4dr or 2 dr, be different or be a yuppie, take a risk or be safe? Any opinions on either of these great cars?

05 Nov 2003 | harry said...

Hi: I had a Toyota Previa 1994. I just drove it for 1 week and noticed squealing when i turn the steering wheel.....back to the dealer and they said it was someones mistake ...they forgot to put power steering fluid in the car !!!

On german reliability, I had a 1982 928 that I used as a daily driver.... it did everything....hauled furniture, went camping , never had a problem. Now if you look , you will find that with proper maintenance, these engines and cars last forever. Over 67% of all Porsches ever made are still on the roads today....fact....! Now we have the Cayenne TT, and it is great, no problems....great fun :-)

05 Nov 2003 | harry said...

Hi FAS: Did you know that Porsche AG gets 20% of its revenue from engineering consulting ?? They have helped everyone of the manufacturers that you mentioned....they are called in to trouble shoot many types of engineering problems and designs. The NSX is an also ran....it is in trouble... my Cayenne TT has dry sump lubrication and oil spray pumps that are usually found in super exotics like the ENZO, MB-SLR, Ford GT400, etc. Yes it does have an Aisin transmission, and it is a great one.

One note: If you need dental work done , you should go to an American or German dentist. (or trained in US/germany) the Japanese dentists are generally not detailed and do lousy work (in general) . Germans are noted for their engineering....even in medicine and dentistry.

05 Nov 2003 | harry said...

Hi FAS: Did you know that Porsche AG gets 20% of its revenue from engineering consulting ?? They have helped everyone of the manufacturers that you mentioned....they are called in to trouble shoot many types of engineering problems and designs. The NSX is an also ran....it is in trouble... my Cayenne TT has dry sump lubrication and oil spray pumps that are usually found in super exotics like the ENZO, MB-SLR, Ford GT400, etc. Yes it does have an Aisin transmission, and it is a great one.

One note: If you need dental work done , you should go to an American or German dentist. (or trained in US/germany) the Japanese dentists are generally not detailed and do lousy work (in general) . Germans are noted for their engineering....even in medicine and dentistry.

08 Nov 2003 | Scott said...

I read a large chunk of this conversation and I've come to the conclusion that European consumers are much more satisfied with their German cars than American consumers. I've been a fan of Jettas for a couple of years now, I rode in one for the first time the other day -- I'm simply in love with every part of that car. I've recently been "close" to getting one (just have to sell my '97 Saturn SW2), and eBay has been like a father to me when it comes to shopping. I found several Jettas I like, but I recently came across something very rare- a BORA. Bora's are what they call the Mk4 Jettas in Germany, here they're just the plain-ol 'Jetta'. Our's are ASSEMBLED in Mexico, and MANUFACTURED in Germany. Regardless of origion, all VWs originate in Germany. Something to be said about Mexican assembly-line techniques? I'm beginning to think so, and thus I believe I'm fully convinced that I'd be much wiser to chose this Bora instead. Additionally, it's a nice touch because I get my cake and I can eat it too: Jettas have exploded in population here recently (AFTER I became a die-hard fan [I'm ridiculously obsessed, you have no idea]) -- and I'd have a BORA...

Anyways, IMO American cars are SO-SO: especially when it comes to 'performance', I've heard rant after rant about american performance cars... Japanese cars, from what I've seen, appeal only to those who are truly more frugal at heart than they are a driver, except when it comes to Subarus. They tend to be pretty good it seems, even in safety. We had a Brat from god only knows what year, sometime in the 80s, and it was a damn good car. I think the WRX would be the best of both words for those who are unsure: Performance & Reliablility.

None the less, I'm still a German fan and I would not have it any other way.

If you want proof, btw, that American performance cars are crap, just buy a Jaguar... any one, and I bet it'll beat your Mexican-American-German-Whatever half-breed's service record 2 fold; the only thing they're capable of is 0-60-0 in 10 seconds flat, whether you intended on it or not.

I also thought I'd point out that a LOT, and I do me A LOT of the opinions of German cars are based on ONE Jetta, or ONE Audi, or ONE Mercedes... But all the opinions from those who've had a few, ya know, more than one, are generally much better... It's called a Lemon people, it happens in every single manufacturer anywhere in the world, I gaurntee it. Some cars--whether made in Germany, America, Japan, or the Czech Republic for that matter--will just not work, and it's not the manufacturers fault. If you're using this article to base your opinions or decisions or whatever on, I would strongly recomend you take the "I hated my Jetta" (etc) articles with a grain of salt--hell, a molecule of good 'ol NaCl--because they're simply far too biased. You can't judge a book by it's cover, but you can by it's first 100 pages.

Btw, my Saturn reminds me a LOT of what American's say about German cars-- nothing major, but never "nothing". There's ALWAYS something wrong with that car, and it's simply too frickin annoying for words. Gotta love it though, it's damn spunky for what it is... (Not that I'd take it over the Bora, ... ever). And yes, it's an American (GM) car. Kinda ironic isn't it? I think this continent is cursed when it comes to cars...

08 Nov 2003 | peter said...

Hi, the first car in the world is not from Benz and the beetle of Hitler is not an original, it is a Tatra model of 1931 and Hitler pirated it through the world war 2.
And still they do not give the model back to who's it belongs the old people of Skoda/Tatra factory because Skoda is now a VW company too!!
I'll drive Honda Civic 1.4is everything is very good, the Vw Golf is very very bad car the imago in the Netherlands of it is very good but a german car is often in the garage with expensive costs. A Golf drives not so good as a sporty Civic

The Dion Bouton has the first car a steam car and Carl Benz copied many things about others and then came a car with the conventionel enigine, so we have now but the engine of carl benz is copied too.

20 Nov 2003 | Prentin Illi said...

I gotta say, I am very impressed with the new GMC Yukon, and the GMC Envoy. On the page I linked above, it lists the truck price which is fair, and some links to good reviews of the mean trucks. These trucks are really tough, and their SUVs are great too. I think GMC leads the SUV and truck market.

01 Dec 2003 | Dana said...

Audi or BMW ---- Audi S4 (turbo) or A4, VS BMW 330Ci, each have their weeknesses and strengths. What do you think? Does anyone own either?

03 Dec 2003 | Jesus Flores said...

LOL Damn it sad to read so much ignorance and stupidity. Let me put this plain and simple American and German automobiles and superior to any Japanese or furthermore asian crap out there. People rant about Toyotas and Hondas being so reliable. Is that why you see a 1957 Toyota or any 60's Toyota still running around on the streets of America? 1957 was the year that Toyota started importing this crap to the U.S. soil. You dont see old Toyotas still running , but you see many American classics. You dont see any old Toyota or Honda still humming around in our cities. But you see newer "Japanese" cars still running strong. Ever wonder why? Because they are AMERICAN MADE!!!! Here is a list of a few Toyota Camry, Toyota Tundra, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Nissan Sentra, Nissan Maxima......the list goes on......So next time you are bashing American products you are bashing your so called "Japenese" shit!!! Educate yourself before you rant about shit you dont know. Oh by the way the Murano is a ugly piece of crap. You guys dont know anything about styling. You know what you do...you said the Lexus have awesome styling....of course they are desing in Pasadena, CA....in the Good Old U.S.A. Oh yeah one more thing...you want performance???? Its called Mustang and Corvette. I could go on but it might overload your senseless little minds. If you bash American products you are bashing your fellow neighbors. Furthermore if you dont support your country you dont deserve to live here. Before I forget why is it that Execs in Japan drive Caddys and Mercedes ??? Hmmm Makes you wonder. America drives technology and the world. American manufactures have the most patents and inventions per year than any other country in this world. And that awesome navigation system some one said about Japanese cars.....is no other that GM Onstar Technology. Everything I said here are not opinions but facts. Just look them up. I'm tired........EDUCATE YOURSELFS YOU DAMN FOOLS!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!

03 Dec 2003 | CZ said...

Jesus Flores!....Wow, what a rant! I have to point out a few things that make you a classic blind patriot. On your first point, why don't you think about the sheer number of cars that Toyota and Datsun sold in America in the 60's and early 70"s (hardly any) They were mostly Land Cruisers and 240Z's of which there are tons still on the road. Japanese cars didn't get good until American cars got shitty which was in the 70's. I live in So. Calif. and the number of 70's and 80"s japanese cars on the rad far outnumber the Americans even though the Americans still far outsold the japanese even then. As for the american production of certain Japanese cars/trucks, if you weren't blind, you'd know that those factories are non-union and that the engineering and a lot of parts all still come from Japan. That is what makes them good. Nobody said an american can't put an engine on an assembly line as good as a Japanese person can, it's the engineering that makes the engine good you fool!..Also, my brother works for Toyota design and it is located in Newport Beach, not Pasadena!! Toyota has no (zero) design facilities in Pasadena so get your facts straight. In fact, if you are referring to the Art Center of Design which is where car designers come from, that is in Pasadena and the head of the car design dept. is a japanese man who just designed the Enzo for Ferrrai, so go think about that for a minute. As for bashing america, the Focus is the most recalled car in history, think about that. Then consider that when you buy an Accord, you pay pretty damn close to sticker, but when you buy a Taurus you get $8,000 cash back, I wonder why? Did you know that Toyota passed Ford recently as the number 2 producer of vehicles in the world? Ford will never catch back up because they are cutting production and closing plants and laying off americans because their products don't measure up, same thing with Chrysler. As for Onstar, it is old news, Toyota and Nissan have had the same thing (only better) for years. The only reason you think Onstar is good is because you've never been to Japan. Toyota's version will help you find a empty parking space and buy your movie tickets for you. They don't have it here because our government and their government have to place restrictions on the satellites which is understandable. Years ago, I bought a 1978 Mustang brand new. Ford had to buy it back from me 8 months later because it was a lemon. So I bought the first (1979) Supra and I sold it 14 years later with 260,000 miles on it. The only non-original parts were the Alternator and the AC compressor. It had 4 wheel disc brakes. The mustang didn't get 4 wheel disc brakes until 1997. That's 18 years. By the way, Jaguar (Ford) just bought back my sister-in-laws 8 month old lemon......God bless America.

05 Dec 2003 | DBN said...

It's offical, I thought Jesus Flores was a moran looking to cause a stir after his first sentence.
Everything CZ stated is on target, especially when he hit the point of engineering. It really all comes down to Dr. Edward Demings Quality Control Managment he tried to tell american auto manufacturers in the 50's & 60's, but they didn't want to spend the money on something that became their downfall. Instead the Dr. went to Japan and helped them rebuild their economy and thought them all about Quality control, which they mastered and live by. It's apparent that certain comments a few posts up were made by an ignorant, uneducated individual. I love this nation and know we make many great things, but anyone with an objective opinion will agree that when it comes to a quality, reliable car it's generally not an American one.

17 Dec 2003 | Allie said...

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22 Dec 2003 | Scott said...

Wow, Jesus, you really know how to get peoples attention. The sad thing for you is, in order to make your points actually worth something, you have to not insult everyone who they apply to AND then make invalid, incorrect points and statements. First of all, what really pissed me off was how you said that "lexus styling" being superrior was a fact; how can you possibly tell me that what I like and dislike is wrong or right? That's the most ignorant part of your post, I would have to say. Your belligerent attitude does you no good either, seeing as how you're quite outnumbered. Also, I'd really like to say that it's almost funny how ridicilous your saying "not liking American products means hating America" statement was. Holy crap that's a good one. No comments needed there. Additionally, your statement about "America leads the world in technology" - L O L. Japan is approximately 2-5 years ahead of us in most markets; at the worst they're on the same level. What technology DOESN'T get manufactured in Japan? Not a whole lot, or, a lot you've heard of. Let me also take a moment to laugh for minutes on end about how "Toyots are made in america". Error number 1: Design, Manufacture and Assembly - of anything - are three entirely different things. (1) Design: Concieve an idea and create its basis for creation, invent the components and plan its layout. (2) Manufacture: Conceptually engineer, refine, and produce (as in, create) parts or materials necessary for something. (3) Assembly: The attachment, placement, or organization of materials/parts in a repeating process, using the same tools and materials to produce numerous identitical products. What happens in Japan? Steps 1, 2 & 3. For American Japanese cars, steps 1 & 2. ONLY step three - the brainless process of following directions using parts acquired from another source - which were also concieved and designed in another location - does take place in America, by far from 'genius designer' or engineer status employees. The reason? It's not cost effective or safe to ship complete automobiles across the ocean. Infact, any car you buy (excluding some extremely rare exotics) is going to be "made" (meaning, ASSEMBLED) in NORTH AMERICA. Some are "made" in Canada, some in Mexico, and so on. Your conception that "Japanese cars are made in America" is completely incorrect and the notion of - from what I gather - an entirely ignorant individual - or as I like to say: the typical AMERICAN. If you ever wondered why people hate this "god blessed country" - it's because of people like you. I am entirely sick of lazy, careless, ignorant, belligerent American's seeking to "save the country". It's not the country most of us hate, you see, it's the people. Once again, I'd like to attempt to return to topic but I'm distracted by yet another pointless, stupid arguement: "Before I forget why is it that Execs in Japan drive Caddys and Mercedes ???" You mean, "American and Germany luxury automobiles"? Well, why the hell do you think AMERICAN execs and rich people drive LEXUS' and INIFINITYs, MADE IN JAPAN? The answer is quite simple, you see: they like something different and they can afford it. They can also afford to replace their American car every 2 years, as is necessary (actually, only a little bash on GM/Chevy/Cadillac. They've been pretty sufficent lately.) Anyway, the article isn't even about JAPANESE cars it's about GERMAN cars... What happened to the subject?

17 Jan 2004 | Scott said...

Well, I finally got my Jetta and I must say: I can definatly tell the difference. It's not like I'm entirely biased or ignorant; I came from a Saturn, and I often drive my parents Chrystler and Chevrolet, so I'm not new to American cars. I also ride in a Toyota with my friend to school and drive my girlfriends Toyota around a lot. There simply is a higher standard of excellence in german cars. My Jetta, for its price, has more feature, quality, and performance per penny than any other car I've ever been in. I think this just might be the beginning of a tradition... oh yeah, Saabs are exempt from the term "German Engineering" for an obviously lack of the second half of that term. Other than that, once you've actually driven one (and not had a back-luck story caused by the ocasional lemon), you'll know what it really means and why there is a whole seperate term for it.

17 Jan 2004 | Scott said...

Oh yeah, my Jetta also features a trip computer and it advised me that I get 31.4mpg avg on my 50min/40mi foothill commute (300 ft elev. to 3,400 ft elev. and vice-versa). I guess VW figured out how to quench that thurst he was speaking of in the article? (Not bad for a 174hp/181lb-ft narrow angle (15) V6).