19 Feb 2003 | Darrel said...

It's just political PR spin. It's just words meant to sound like 'something' but really say nothing at all.

19 Feb 2003 | Darrel said...

I should add that it's really just talk meant to appease the working middle class. If you can fool the middle class into thinking so-and-so's plan means more take-home pay for them, they will vote. Whether the plan actually accomplishes that is often a moot point.

If you're rich, then what do you care anyways? ;o)

19 Feb 2003 | TRoyal said...

Ah, real Americans. Those who work hard and don't see a whole lot of benefit. Those who come home tired in front of the TV and soak up the propaganda/info/commercial messages.

Dearrel got it right, though. Many wealthy people worked to get where they are, surely, but many rode coattails or managed not to fall asleep in class long enough to get that status-degree. As a poor-ass American, I know just enough about the corporate reward structure to know that the people the media tells me about are people who get a whole lot of money screwing a lot of people over.

19 Feb 2003 | JF said...

Many wealthy people... rode coattails or managed not to fall asleep in class long enough to get that status-degree.

What's your point exactly? What you said about many rich people could be said about many poor people too... Too lazy to do anything about their situation. Too eager to ride the system.

There are always going to be people at both ends who don't represent the rest of their class.

So, how are the ultra poor any more "real" than the ultra rich?

19 Feb 2003 | Darrel said...

What's your point exactly?

Umm...what was your point? That some rich people work hard? OK.

19 Feb 2003 | JF said...

My point? Read my initial post. Why aren't successful/rich/wealthy people considered "real Americans" or "hard-working Americans?"

19 Feb 2003 | Ron Zeno said...

It's just propaganda, the same type of propaganda that Gingrich used so effectively almost a decade ago: Gingrich's glittering generalities

19 Feb 2003 | Jonny Roader said...

I'm reminded of the scene from Reservoir Dogs: the world's smallest violins, playing for the rich people of the world who don't get the respect they deserve on one tiny little issue.

Ah, diddums. How about this for a point: I heard that sometimes rich people break their fingernails while playing tennis. Something must be done!

Sorry JF, cheap shot I know. But this is hardly an issue that should raise hackles. There are more important things to think about right now, surely?

19 Feb 2003 | 8500 said...

So, how are the ultra poor any more "real" than the ultra rich?

Because there are a hell of a lot more of them. Real is being used to mean "most representative of the US population". I think it is a fair distinction between the 10% of the population that makes over 87k a year and the rest of us.

19 Feb 2003 | moolah said...

eewww, is that the faint odor of JF's trust fund? if you're not rich, i don't see how this would offend you, and if you are rich then you can get over it by going home and counting your money. whoopy doop.

19 Feb 2003 | Darrel said...

JF...you're debating PR spin that came out of a politician's mouth? What's the point?

And like moolah said, how can you (or anyone) really take offense to this?

And like I said, there are rich people that work hard. Good for them.

19 Feb 2003 | nathan said...

Hey Jonny Roader - It is precisely an issue that is important, because it is cheap spin that seeks to trick, use, manipulate and then abandon the "real American."

Just say not to spin morons who generalize and confuse. Do you surf at MSN or AOL? Probably not, because they are the politicians of the internet, no substance, confusing, flashy and utterly full of *hit.

19 Feb 2003 | JF said...

There are more important things to think about right now, surely?

Of course, and we have been. This was just an observation that was bothering me so I figured I'd bring it up.

Because there are a hell of a lot more of them. Real is being used to mean "most representative of the US population".

"Majority" would have been better than "Real" then.

ewww, is that the faint odor of JF's trust fund? if you're not rich, i don't see how this would offend you, and if you are rich then you can get over it by going home and counting your money.

Nope. I've worked hard for what I've earned. Very hard. I'm not offended, I just think the use of "real" and "hard working" shouldn't exclude anyone who's been successful. I know we're just talking words and spin.

19 Feb 2003 | hulkamaniac said...

Unless you have been listening to Hulk Hogan's song "Real American", I don't think you need to be talking.

19 Feb 2003 | moolah said...

i guess there's also the difference over how people understand "hard-working". Sure, there are stresses involved in being an 87K pa exec, but it's not hard work like being a miner or carrying bricks all day, or being some shitty minimum wage flunky who makes less money for a whole day of work than some people spend on a manicure mid-afternoon because they're bored. It's fine to say poor people should work harder, but i dare you to go say that to some poor shmuck working 14hr days for minimum wage.

19 Feb 2003 | ek said...

eewww, is that the faint odor of JF's trust fund? if you're not rich, i don't see how this would offend you

Wow, that's one of the stupidest comments I've read on here in a while. Does the fact that the ACLU petitions on behalf of neo-Nazis make them an organization of Nazis (or Klansmen, or [insert other distasteful organization here]).

Can't you just stick to the point and discuss the content of JF's post instead of assailing him personally? It's people like you who make blogs and message boards suck.

19 Feb 2003 | JF said...

some shitty minimum wage flunky who makes less money for a whole day of work than some people spend on a manicure mid-afternoon because they're bored

Earning minimum wage, or any wage, for that matter, has nothing to do with how hard you work. Working in a fast food joint doesn't mean you are working hard, it just means you aren't making much. You can work hard and not make much, or you can work hard and make a lot just as easily as you can be lazy and not make much or be lazy and make a lot.

19 Feb 2003 | fajalar said...

This is what bothers me. These politicians talk about being "for real americans," or other such phrases. But when they get into office, they seem to forget all about those people that voted for them (and even the ones that didn't) and focus on the corporations that gave them money.

Take the presidency. I realize that Bush is a Republican, but I see that office as supposedly representing "all" americans. But it ends up representing only one party of americans, and usually only certian sects within the party.

It's crap as usual. "For all americans," but "anti-war protests won't sway me." "For real americans," but "AIDS help only if you ban even talking about abortion." "For true americans," but really only for those who have the money to ante in at the political table.

So perhaps the real americans are the rich. Wheter they work their asses off is not the point. It's what they do with their money. And it's how those who watch what they do with their money feel about it.

19 Feb 2003 | Darrel said...

Let's just agree that there is no definition of 'real american'.

19 Feb 2003 | geezer said...

Take the presidency. I realize that Bush is a Republican, but I see that office as supposedly representing "all" americans...

Looking back, I have worked through 5 Presidents (7 terms) and regardless of who/what the President is spouting, everything pretty much stays the same.

19 Feb 2003 | empty said...

I agree with Darrel. Though the song does rock.

19 Feb 2003 | ~bc said...

I'd just like to say this about the poor. They are the ones who built this country. Starting with slaves and immigrants, right up till today. The working poor still do the things this country needs to get done, that the jet-set simply won't "stoop-to." Retail, Restaurants, Services, Janitorial, Construction, Maintenance. So no matter how hard working your monied-ass is, if it's driving you home in a Jag a night, you're still doing something "better" than cleaning toilets. And although this "real" comment is absolutely within the spin category, let's remember these two things: you'd still rather be in a plush hi-paying job (working hard) than cleaning toilets (working hard), and without the working poor, this country and the rich would not function. Bottom line.

19 Feb 2003 | JF said...

I hear ya ~bc, but I'm not sure why you are so bitter towards people who are well off. I'm sure you'd have a major problem with a rich person critizing the lifestyle of a poor person. Why do you have to play that same game in reverse? Or maybe I just read you wrong (sorry if I did).

And, BTW, cleaning toilets isn't any "harder" than writing a book or managing billions of dollars of assets, it's just different and certainly less desirable. Just because a job is dirty or messy or unappreciated doesn't make it hard by default. Shit, I pumped gas, checked oil, and hand washed/detailed cars for two years and it was one of the easiest jobs I've ever had.

19 Feb 2003 | sage said...

There are a lot of poor people with gold teeth and I have never even had a cavity.

19 Feb 2003 | COD said...

that the jet-set simply won't "stoop-to." Retail, Restaurants, Services, Janitorial, Construction, Maintenance.

Actually, very few Americans are doing this work at all. In most major cities, the really menial grimy work gets done by immigrants, many illegal. Not that I have a problem with that. I think our borders should be open for anybody who wants to come here and pay his own way.

19 Feb 2003 | brian said...

whoa. this is crazy. i think the point that some people are trying to make is that making a lot has a lot to do with opportunity. now, it is true that some people have overcome their situation to create opportunity. but who you know is often more important than what you do. just the truth. and i'm in the minority. but making contacts with the right people plays a *huge* role in success. with the right recommendation, it doesn't even matter what you actually do.

19 Feb 2003 | Steve said...

The "real American" thing gets used for more than just economic battles. "Real Americans" don't question their president during a time of national crisis (uttered in not-those-exact words, but pretty close, by the president's press seceretary). "Real Americans" want to see prayer in schools. "Real Americans" want to see abortion-on-demand.

Everyone uses this line of argument or its variants - "and the American people agree," "the silent majority agrees," etc. - because they believe it gives their views legitimacy. One of the most obvious logical fallacies, yet also one of the most effective, is the appeal to popularity. Most people will go along with what they perceive others are doing. That's true whether it's TV shows, movies or politics.

20 Feb 2003 | MegaGrunt said...

You have all missed the point completely!

These guys who are for 'Real Americans' are in on THE CONSPIRACY.... a secret society of lizard like aliens masquerading as American citizens, who are using American tax dollars to syphon off valuable resources back to their home planet in order to build up their war machine with they will use to attack the U.S. and enslave you all.

Vote Gephardt for a lizard free future!

20 Feb 2003 | shotwise said...

I'll go with "Noise" on this one...

20 Feb 2003 | alisha said...

It maybe has to do with perceived priorities. Rich people concentrate on making money most thier lives. It seems the mid-earners & low-earners are the ones who lead more balanced lives, where the priorities are kids, family and social well-being of the community. It seems to be myth from what I can tell. Ive met some really wonderful wealthy people and some "Real Americans" who were bites in the ass at best. I think it bothers you because youre such an idealist. Youd make a great dad. I hope you plan on having kids.

20 Feb 2003 | ~bc said...

I think my point was that that the wealthy of this country don't need more tax cuts, but they do need the working poor to mantain their standard of living. Therefore, when we treat the working poor well (ie, living wage, health benefits [universal health]) the rich benefit as well. Studies prove this time and again. For a business example, a shop that pays a living wage and provides health care reduces costs in many other areas, by reducing staff turnover, training, less sick days, builds good moral which leads to better customer service, more productivity, less theft, and an all-around better working environment. More bonuses to "suits" do not provide any of these benefits. When one "suit" gets paid a salary that could employ 100 workers at the base level, that doesn't make sense. No matter how "hard" those decisions that "suit" makes.

My point is when your country is built on a foundation, you need to make sure the foundation is well taken care of and appreciated, or else everything "on top" will fall into the sea. Rich or poor doesn't make you "real" just, but more benefits for the cogs in the American engine keeps them running better. And everyone benefits.

20 Feb 2003 | nathan said...

I just hate when people say this

...some shitty minimum wage...

about minimum wage folks. Everyone always dogs the guy working at McDonalds or the gas station attendant or whoever. Have you ever stopped to think how condescending that sounds. I bet you wouldn't be so quick and cavalier with your flippant remarks if you realized that you depend on them SO much. I will not call the guy working the drive through at McDonalds some poor old sap, because he makes a high quality McFlurry that I love to snack on. He rocks. And when we're both sitting in a bar having a beer in our street clothes the poor old sap is none other than the sorry ass sitting next to us spouting his condescending overgeneralized nonesense BS.

21 Feb 2003 | Don Schenck said...

So if I purchase a Fractional Ownership plan in a Lear, I'm not "real"?

Jason's *Right*, of course. It's bunk.

(After a week in Orlando and Chicago, it's good to be back!)

26 Feb 2003 | pk said...

A real American would look at these great posters.

26 Feb 2003 | p8 said...

Great stuff. Thanks!