04 Aug 2003 | Rog said...

What an odd option. Why do they even offer a choice? If it's cheaper and globally better why would they even ship in the "regular retail packaging?"

This seems like a eco- gen-X translation of the "OEM Packaging" versus "Retail Box" packaging choice you typically see when you buy a processor or hard drive.

Am I too jaded?

04 Aug 2003 | pb said...

Mellow. Consumers have an expectation about packaging. Some even prefer fully packaged items.

04 Aug 2003 | Darrel said...

No, Rog, I don't think you are too jaded. I agree.

I also agree with pb...some people expect full packaging.

So, it's the old 'right thing' vs. 'making money' thing and this seems to be an OK compromise.

I'm also curious as to how the eco-friendly cardboard package differs from retail. I, like Rog, would assume they could make an eco-friendly cardboard package that is also retail-friendly.

04 Aug 2003 | p8 said...

Irish take lead with plastic bag levy:
... "the staff wont offer any shopping bags unless you are willing to pay for them" ...

We (the dutch) have been paying for grocery bags for a couple of years now. But we have always been penny pincers. Or was it good traders? :)

I think it has some effect.

04 Aug 2003 | hurley #1 said...

I think there's value to the company in making their customers feel like they did something good by actively choosing to use the enviro packaging. You click on that checkbox and you feel good about your decision and about PocketDock. If they just had a notice on the site that they would ship the product with less packaging than you would get if you bought it at a retail store, you probably wouldn't pay much attention.

Plastic bag levies have never made much sense to me, since studies have shown that plastic and paper bags use up pretty much the same level of resources. Plastic bags take longer to degrade in landfills, but most of them do degrade, and even paper bags probably won't decompose much in a totally anaerobic environment.

What I like better is stores that offer me a discount if I bring my own bag. My food co-op in Vermont did that, and my local coffee shop always gave me a discount if I brought my own mug. That's a positive incentive -- those nickels add up.

04 Aug 2003 | Brian Peddle said...

I agree with Hurley. The company is visibly showing they care about the environment and make you feel good at the same time.

It is also free marketing for them. It is so different you will remember that and may even bring it up in conversation. That's why Jason posted the message about it in the first place. If he just had it shipped in eco-friendly packaging he may have not even noticed.

04 Aug 2003 | Paolo said...

I'm happy to read about such forward thinking policies but it makes you wonder if anyone is working on a useful alternative. If necessity is the mother of invention then one facet of a possible necessity is picking up dog crap.

I rely on plastic bags and ask friends and family to keep all their bags so that I can pick up after my dog. If plastic bags weren't available to me as easily anymore I'd have to reconsider a new method of a rather undesirable chore.

This silly example aside, how do you carry your groceries home if you don't have a car? Paper bags don't come with handles at the grocery store.

I guess it just raises some usability issues. Plastic bags may not be environmentally friendly but their very useful and paper bags usually arent.

04 Aug 2003 | Paul said...

Paper bags don't come with handles at the grocery store.

Not most, anyway. Trader Joe's does offer paper, handled grocery bags - and they're quite useful for other uses besides lugging groceries home.

04 Aug 2003 | hurley #1 said...

how do you carry your groceries home if you don't have a car?

Cloth bags with handles are readily available. Backpacks and courier bags are great for carrying groceries, as are those little grandmothery-like two-wheel shopping carts.

On plastic versus paper, I jumped to the wrong conclusion that the article Jason linked to was to encourage paper over plastic, whereas in fact it appears that those fees are to encourage people to use fewer disposable bags in general. Read first, comment later; read first, comment later, read first, comment later. I'll write it on the blackboard 50 times.

04 Aug 2003 | ek said...

The Whole Foods in my area also provides paper bags with handles.

To Paolo, I think the idea is to take a more holistic approach to conservation. So, in addition to bringing your own shopping bag, you could help matters by buying only as much on each trip to the market as you can carry (though, if you live beyond driving distance this won't help much).

In addition to conserving paper/plastic, this fewer items/more trips model would be beneficial in that you wouldn't have to buy things that are pumped full of preservatives to prolong their shelf life. If enough people did this it could have a large scale impact on the industry, lowering preservative use and pre-purchase processing overall. It would be even better if you could buy from local growers, at least those committed to scrupulous land use.

Pretty pie-in-the-sky, I know, but hey, all change is incremental.

04 Aug 2003 | dmr said...

hurley #1 said... "I think there's value to the company in making their customers feel like they did something good by actively choosing to use the enviro packaging."

Check and box and save Mother Earth? Gimme a break. They didn't DO anything, it's not a proactive effort on anyone's behalf save the retailer. Applause to the retailer, but I loathe the idea that some people will think this is their good deed of the day; now I can throw my Burger King wrapper out the window.

I've been reading too much Mike Moore huh?

04 Aug 2003 | hurley #1 said...

They didn't DO anything, it's not a proactive effort on anyone's behalf save the retailer.

Exactly, and that's the beauty of it. They FEEL like they did something, like they made a decision, even if they didn't.

The retailer wins by getting the warm fuzzies from the customer. The customer wins by getting the warm fuzzies about himself/herself. So what if it's a bit disengenuous? Isn't that what marketing is all about? ;-)

05 Aug 2003 | Stephen said...

I must agree with both hurley #1 and dmr. It's all about warm fuzzies. At least for now. Once there are more stats on the amount of customers actually choosing "eco" packaging (or better yet, the company could decide to ditch the "standard" packs altogether), companies like this will actually be able to produce less "retail" packaging. As long as customers have a choice, both types of packs will have to be manufactured. Perhaps it's marketing in hope of a better future. ;)

05 Aug 2003 | hurley #1 said...

companies like this will actually be able to produce less "retail" packaging.

I'm no expert on this, but clearly if you're going to sell something retail it has to meet the packaging requirements of the retailer. For example, you may need to be able to hang it on a display, the packaging has to be bulky enough to deter shoplifters, etc. So in some cases the manufacturer doesn't have much choice in the matter--they may be forced to use more packaging for the products they sell retail.

Some companies are working with retailers to come up with less bulky packaging that will still work in store displays. Some of these companes are reducing packaging as part of their commitments under EPA's Performance Track program, or through the WasteWise program.

05 Aug 2003 | paul said...

The local Whole Foods offers people a discount on their groceries if they bring their own bags, $.05 per bag I believe. Which I think is a great idea - charging people for bags, although it probably has a better affect on the whole, leaves a bad taste in customer's mouths. By encouraging people with a discount you help protect the environment without potential loss of business.

But then again, there's this: my girlfriend works for Whole Foods and she said she sometimes gets crazy people trying to pay for a gallon of milk with a handful of plastic bags...hahah

05 Aug 2003 | ~bc said...

Personally, we use all of our (Trader Joe and Whole Foods) paper bags...fittingly for our recycling. We always use our little plastic bags we pick up from stores for the little trash bins around the house. The cool thing is we recycle easily 2/3rds more than we trash. We're happy about that.

06 Aug 2003 | jupiter said...

What about the PocketDock - do you really think it's useful? I don't have an iPod, just the old Rio but I never had the desire to connect it with other PCs...

29 Oct 2003 | Andr Klein said...

Hi, folks!

My name is Andr Klein and I'm the founder and owner of SendStation Systems, manufacturer of the PocketDock. I just found this thread accidentally and thought, although I'm a bit late, it might be interesting for you, to learn about the details.

We are located in Germany and most Germans really care about the environment and its future, and so do I personally. When shopping I avoid plastic bags, we try to save power and water wherever possible (most of you probably know that the day will come when drinkable water becomes just as valuable as oil).

As for the order option on the PocketDock: hurley #1 was right when he/she wrote that our retailers have specific requirements on the packaging. Unless you have a product which is already well-known by the public, it's basically impossible to do a packaging without a clear plastic window, a so-called blister pack. It is pictured in this review.

It also had to be big enough to accept the product description and the UPC barcode on its back. But note that, when compared to other blister packs, we kept the amount of plastic as low as possible. It's just a little bigger than the product itself, all the rest is made from cardboard, whereas most other blisters you'll find in stores are covered with plastic all over.

As the product is fully described on our website, customers ordering through our store already know what they are getting, so we decided that it would be a good idea to offer an eco-friendly packaging, which is in the PocketDocks case an approx. matchbox sized cardboard envelope (sorry, no pictures at hand). But as some customers insist on a "real" packaging and might be disappointed when receiving their PocketDock in a, what some people might call "less exciting" packaging, we felt that a good solution would be to leave this decision to the customer himself.

As for the price issue: the difference in cost between both package types is just 1 US cent, so not worth to talk about.

Interested in how many customers pick the eco option? 76%. Which is kind of surprising when taking into account, that almost 70% of all our orders are made by US residents.

On the protective packaging for shipment we rejected air-cushioned plastic envelopes and instead use Jiffy and others, made from 100% recycled paper.

We currently have some other exciting products under development, and although they aren't as easy to pack as the known PocketDock, we'll do our very best to avoid plastic and replace it with cardboard wherever possible.

Best regards,

Andr Klein
SendStation Systems

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