04 Sep 2003 | Andy Baio said...

Sure, but is it enough to make you swear off meat? My wife and family are all vegetarian, but I haven't been able to make the switch. I'm hooked to tasty, delicious food like a smoker to nicotine.

My big question: why isn't there an industry standard for cruelty -free meat production, just like there's a standard for organic foods? I'm sure there's demand, and I'd gladly pay more for a guilt-free diet.

04 Sep 2003 | One of several Steves said...

The treatment of animals outlined on "FFN" bothered me a whole lot less than the treatment of humans. (Tangent: why do so many people seem to get more worked about about animal cruelty than cruelty to other human beings?)

The slaughterhouse/meatpacking industry treats its people like shit, deliberately bringing in busloads of illegal aliens who are going to be too afraid to speak out when they lose a hand or lose the use of their arm on the job. The fast-food chains themselves are little better, encouraging turnover and preventing people from working enough to qualify for benefits.

But, has reading FFN changed my behavior? For a while, yes. A year after I read it? Not much. I have changed my patterns a bit. I eat Jack in the Box more often because they are rigorous about things like keeping shit out of meat. I patronize In 'N Out because they pay their people well and treat them fairly. But, I'll still get McDonald's at the airport, etc. because sometimes conveience is all I'm concerned about.

04 Sep 2003 | Ralph said...

When I grow up, I want to go to Bovine University!

04 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

why isn't there an industry standard for cruelty -free meat production

I don't think there's a standard, but there are definitely companies out there that sell meat from humanely raised animals. Back in the late 80s I had a girlfriend who worked for a humanely raised veal operation, and her job was to go inspect all the farms. She booted out a few producers who consistently failed to meet the specs. Most of that veal went to Bread and Circus stores in the Boston area, as well as a few restaurants.

Food co-ops and health-food stores usually carry some humanely raised meat products, along with eggs from free-range chickens. Usually more expensive, but worth supporting.

04 Sep 2003 | JF said...

Question... A lot is being made of "Free-range" meats these days, but is the slaughter process for free-range meats any different than other meats? Or, is the only difference the feed and space the animals are given?

04 Sep 2003 | eliot said...

I read this book a couple of years ago. While he did make some good points, I was struck more by some of the big points he lead to towards the end. The author seems to wholeheartedly think that fast food companies have changed the face of the whole nation. Saying that they had some effect is agreeable, but to be the sole cause of the radical changes of the '50s, '60s, and '70s? I don't think so.

04 Sep 2003 | SU said...

If you're interested in what some people are doing in the cattle industry to improve the animal slaughter process, I can't recommend Temple Grandin's book, hinking in Pictures: And Other Reports from My Life With Autism, enough. The book also sheds a rare first-person account perspective on autism.

04 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

I think it's more that the animals have a better life whlie they have it; but I'm pretty sure some of the "humanely raised" producers also work with slaughterhouses to ensure that the animals are killed humanely as well. The company my ex-girlfriend worked for did that; they claimed that the meat from stressed-out animals tasted differently from those that were slaughtered in typical production-line fashion.

04 Sep 2003 | SU said...

Make that: Thinking in Pictures: And Other Reports from My Life With Autism.

04 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

Um, there should have been a "not" in that last sentence: ..."differently from those tha were not slaughtered in typical production-line fashion."

04 Sep 2003 | Matt Jones said...

Theres shit in the meat

Yeah, but they're damn tasty ;)

05 Sep 2003 | Dave said...

Tangent: why do so many people seem to get more worked about about animal cruelty than cruelty to other human beings?

I've always wondered about this myself. I usually tend to think that we are actually closer to animals than we are to those humans in a different social/economic class than we are.

We all can go to tourist farms & touch cows and laugh at pigs running around, but how many of us assoiate with assembly line meat production workers? How many of them read the blog of an upscale web design company? The fact is that we abstract the humans more than we do the animals...

I've also found it strange that no one ever seems to question how these companies give you *so much* food for $1.00 The truth is they underpay employees, cut back everywhere etc, but all anyone cares about is how little they have to pay...

05 Sep 2003 | Neil said...

In 1989, I worked for three months at a huge slaughterhouse / meat-packing plant as work placement for the Robotics & Automation program I had just graduated from. I've had a lot of jobs, but none of them were as soul-destroying and horrible as that experience.

I haven't eaten meat since.

05 Sep 2003 | Don Schenck said...

We can just visit our local market, purchase meat from people we know ... people who treat the cattle well (I'd say "humanely", but shouldn't that be "animaly"?), slaughter it themselves, and sell it right there. Helps support the local, "little guy" farmers too.

I certainly hope cigars aren't made in such horrible conditions. Meat ... yeah, I could give it up. But a Punch Rare Corojo? Never! "From my cold, dead hands!"

:-)

05 Sep 2003 | JFR said...

Don,

I really enjoy the Punch Rare Carojos. Just got turned on to 'em. Had one last night after my KFC 6 piece;)

Try Camachos. My new favorite. Droooolllll . . . .

05 Sep 2003 | Buddhakin said...

Why isn't there an industry standard for cruelty-free meat production? There is... it's called being vegetarian. OK, perhaps a facetious comment, but it's as close to a sure-fire standard as you're going to get. And if you think tasty, delicious food can't be meat-free, I'd love to email you three recipes to change your mind...!

05 Sep 2003 | Darrel said...

Tangent: why do so many people seem to get more worked about about animal cruelty than cruelty to other human beings?

Animals can't stand up for themselves at all.

Granted, a lot of humans can't either.

Good question, I suppose. Personally, I think all living things should be given the same amount of respect. That doesn't mean you can't eat them. Just be nice to them before you do. ;o)

BTW, if we're talking cow shit, that's really not that bad. Just slightly digested grasses. ;o)

If you do care, avoid processed meats. Try and buy from smaller farms directly. The small farmer has the utmost respect for his animal. The corporat pig farm has no such thing.

Chickens have a profit margin of a few cents. Giant chicken farms aren't about to spend ANY of that profit margin to make the chicken happier.

Patronize farmers markets. Go to your local butcher (they tend to buy local meet, which may/may not be small-farm raised).

Avoid chicken and pork (two species of animals that are treated fairly inhumanely and have become the mainstay of corporate farming).

05 Sep 2003 | Darrel said...

Oh, and Bud...post those recipes!

I love meat, but I'm always up for getting less of it into my body if there are tastier alternatives.

05 Sep 2003 | the poster formerly known as fajalar said...

Darrel (et al.):

If you want less meat in your diet, but still want something like meat, try Seitan (pronounced say-tan or say-tahn).

The following explanation (emphasis mine) is from vegancooks.com:

"Seitan is a wheat gluten cooked in a soy sauce broth that has the taste, texture and look of meat. Since all the starch has been removed and only the wheat protein remains, seitan has a very high protein content, higher than most animal foods. It also is high in calcium and niacin, and is fat free. Seitan is commonly called, Wheat Meat and Mock Duck. It is an excellent transition food for those wishing to reduce the animal foods in their diet. It can be used like meat in a variety of ways: a pot roast served with gravy, sauteed in fajitas, stir fried, stuffing for wontons and eggrolls, grilled, sliced in a sandwich, simmered chunks in stews and soups, etc."

05 Sep 2003 | Melda said...

I agree with Don Schenck's earlier comment - helping the little guy at the local market helps out the community in the long run. I live in Eastern Canada where luckily this is possible.
I am pollo-vegetarian (I eat some chicken but no meat or fish). I have never read FFN because, from what I've heard from others who have, I fear I'll never want to drive thru anywhere ever again.
There's something to be said about blissful ignorance by times.

05 Sep 2003 | Don Schenck said...

JFR, had a Camacho two Sundays ago. Incredible.

05 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

I've got several good vegetarian cookbooks, but the one I love most is The Moosewood Restaurant Cooks at Home.

A far, far cry from the original granola-crunchy Moosewood Cookbook by Mollie Katzen. I've cooked nearly every recipe in The Moosewood Restaurant Cooks at Home and they're all excellent. None of them takes more than 1/2 hour to prepare. They have one section on fish, but otherwise all these recipes are vegetarian, and not a boring one in the bunch.

08 Sep 2003 | alisha said...

animals are turned into cannibals (cattle are routinely fed to each other to promote faster growth)
---
BSE anyone? this has been outlawed in Europe after the discovery that BSE is directly caused by herbivores (such as cows and pigs) being fed animal meal.

08 Sep 2003 | pb said...

Getting past the animal treatment angle, is there a market for healthier fast food? I would think so but noone seems to have tried it in a McDonalds-like way.

09 Sep 2003 | One of several Steves said...

BSE anyone? this has been outlawed in Europe after the discovery that BSE is directly caused by herbivores (such as cows and pigs) being fed animal meal.

It'll never happen in the States. At least, that's what the meat industry adn the Dept of Agriculture keep telling everyone. My response: yeah, right.

Getting past the animal treatment angle, is there a market for healthier fast food? I would think so but noone seems to have tried it in a McDonalds-like way.

A completely healthy place would not survive. But, part of the reason McDonald's has been hurting financially is because others are taking market share by offering healthy food. Subway's whole marketing push the last couple years has been on low-fat. Wendy's introduction of good salads, baked potatoes, etc. has taken market share from McDonald's. Most of the "quick-casual" chains, which are the biggest beneficiary of fast food's declining market share, in general have healthier food (places like Chipotle, Panera, Baja Fresh).

Healthier food, as part of the menu, has been tried and does succeed.

12 Sep 2003 | Is said...

McDonalds Australia is actually trying out the healthy menu idea. From the McDonalds Australia website:
"CEO Guy Russo has today responded to ongoing community debate with a new menu range which includes industry-first nutritional labelling...

Mr Russo has been heavily involved in state and national obesity conferences in the past year and as a result, McDonalds has heard the community cry for food information, choice and variety and answered with the Salads Plus menu...

The eight Salads Plus launch items all feature 10grams of fat or less a serve and their sugar and salt levels have been carefully considered during product development, Mr Russo said.

The Salads Plus menu items are a chicken foldover, roast chicken salad, fruit and yoghurt crunch, low fat raspberry muffin, low fat orange and poppyseed muffin, vege burger, garden mixed salad and apples." http://www.mcdonalds.com.au/MediaRelease/mainPage.asp?mrID=41

I've tried the vegie burger and it's surprisingly not bad ;-)

17 Jan 2004 | Edwin said...

For example, if you see an AIM window peeking out from behind your browser and you click on it, that window will come to the front, but the main application window will not. The Mail.app/Activity Viewer is another example. The Aqua system of layers works well in many instances, but not in all. Thank goodness that the Dock is always there to come to the rescue. I know that clicking on an application icon in the Dock will always result in not only the application coming to the front, but also any non-minimized windows associated with it. And if the application is active but no windows are open, clicking on the Dock icon should create a new window in that application.