11 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

Jeezum, it makes you appreciate why good frames are so expensive.

I have a friend who always built his own bikes (well, assembled them really from bought frame and parts), and he worked for a flute manufacturer, Brannen Brothers, near Boston. One year he invited me to the company's Christmas party and they took me on a tour. The work that goes into producing a flute is just as amazing as the process for building bike frame, especially the keys, which were cast using the lost-wax method, and all arrayed on a rod like branches on a tree.

Odd bit of trivia: I know quite a few flute makers, and more than half of them have also been pretty serious bike racers and bike builders at various times in their lives. It must take a similar kind of mentality and attention to detail.

12 Sep 2003 | One of several Steves said...

OK, now I have a better idea why my new bike cost a good chunk of change.

Handmade anything is interesting to learn about. I used to play guitar, and the shop I would take it to for fixes was a guitarmaker's shop. Beautiful guitars. They'd take a couple months to build, to allow for wood to cure, etc.

There was a story about a guitarmaker over in East LA on NPR the other day. He's still using the Brazilian rosewood his father or grandfather imported like 50 years ago. Good thing, since that's gotten really expensive. But it goes a long way on a guitar.

12 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Actually, Giant bikes are pretty much the antithesis of the handmade ethos, not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-) I think Giant offers pretty much the best value for your dollar on the bike market today, but they're all about keeping costs down through mass production.

Giant actually also makes frames for most of the major bicycle brands on the market today. They know what they're doing and really have it down to a science.

12 Sep 2003 | ~bc said...

Funny, you should mention IF. I actually interviewed with them when I moved to Boston. Everyone was very cool. I really enjoyed touring their shop. Unfortunately, they told me to come back in the winter when they'd be ramping up to the new season, and when I did, the CEO had moved on and no one there new who I was! That sucked. But the bikes still rock, and I'd still buy one, if i could afford it! Man, I could have used the employee discount They also have the coolest site in the bike industry (that's why I was talking to them in the first place, its hard to find a guy who knows bikes, tech, customer service, to work in the "notoriously underpaying bike industry" he told me... too bad he didn't tell his successor. Not that my job now is all bad.) Sorry, perhaps this is all a little off topic. They're nice people and nice bikes. Go buy one.

12 Sep 2003 | mike m said...

I still have my eyes on a 3-Speed Kronan

These bikes are gorgeous, heavy duty utlity bikes built in Sweden... I'm fascinated by the simpleness of their design and hoping to pick up an orange beauty sometime soon...

12 Sep 2003 | andrew said...

I was just drooling over my personal bike fetish the other day, Rivendell Bicycle Works. Mmmm... sexy lugs. The craftsmanship that goes into these beauties is amazing.

12 Sep 2003 | SU said...

Those Kronan bikes look gorgeous (and functional) indeed. And dear god, look at the lugwork on those bikes from Rivendell!

I ended up going with Independent Fabrications Deluxe after bowing to a deal I couldn't resist. Boulder is truly the place for deals on barely used top-top-top-of-the-line outdoor equipment. If you're ever in town, check out the Boulder Sports Recycler.

12 Sep 2003 | mike said...

Interesting as I own a Giant TCR Team (road racing) and an IF Planet X (cross racing). Both bikes are well built and wonderful for their intended purpose. As mentioned before, both companies represent polar ends of manufacturing techniques yet both produce beautiful, functional and accessible bikes (less so for the IF! $$$). What's amazing to me is that I have the choice when considering such fantastic products. Viva la choice.

12 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

I love utility bikes, so the Kronans are interesting to me, thanks for that link. Now that I live in a city, I can do many of my errands and shopping by bike. But I often don't because it's a pain having a bike with components that are attractive to thieves (and Montreal is notorious for bike thieves). The Kronan, with just three speeds and a coaster brake, would actually make a lot of sense as a second bike for tooling around town. Now I just have to figure out how I can get one in Canada...

12 Sep 2003 | SU said...

On the subject of bicycles, anyone here interested in a 56cm locally-made (Niwot, CO) road bike? E-mail me at scott[at]37signals.com if you're interested in learning more.

12 Sep 2003 | One of several Steves said...

I know that Giant's on the opposite end of the manufacturing spectrum, ek; I'm just marveling at how much goes into making just a frame, whether it's done by machine or by craftsmen. It looks like such a simple structure - and in many ways it is; certainly one of the most efficient - but there's an awful lot that goes into one.

12 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Totally true Steve. I just so happened to just recently start working for a company that produces a bike (you can see it at www.BiGHA.com -- the site in all it's Flash horridness is what I'm here to fix ;-) and I am amazed by everything that goes into one.

Granted, our bike is different from most and a bit more complex, but the number of parts involved is astounding. The guys in the shop laid out boards with every single piece of the bike taped to them to allow them to quickly and easily id parts and it just blows my mind how many elements make up a seemingly simply structure on the bike. And that's not even taking into account the electronics!

12 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Oh, and on the topic of beautiful bikes, my heart still goes out to Moots.

Absolutely beautiful design and construction (their absolutely gorgeous welds make other welders cry ;-) and their titanium frames will essentially last forever. I also love that they leave their frames raw -- no garish paint jobs here. I'm lucky enough to own a YBB, but, man, I would so love a Vamoots for road riding.

12 Sep 2003 | One of several Steves said...

The BiGHA (how's that pronounced? I want to go Italian with it - beegha) looks nice - for a recumbant. I should ride a recumbent someday just to see what they're like. But I really like the standard bike geometry, actually. I don't know if I'd like riding that low to the ground. But the design of the BiGHA looks very nice, both technically and aesthetically.

Moots do have nice-looking bikes. Haven't seen one up close to judge - you're right, the beauty of a good frame shows up in its welds - but they're very elegant in an overall view.

Probably my favorite is Litespeed. Just look at the quality of the dropouts on this frame.

Incidentally, I think titanium has to remain unfinished.

12 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

I tried a recumbent for 50-75 miles once, and it felt too much like what I do all day, sitting in a chair. And going uphill used very different leg muscles than what I had developed on my road bike and mountain bike.

12 Sep 2003 | SU said...

Incidentally, I think titanium has to remain unfinished.

Nope -- it's just that it doesn't have to be finished to resist corrosion. IF makes titanium frames with full paint jobs: Titanium Crown Jewel.

And as for Moots -- don't get me started. They are insanely beautiful!

12 Sep 2003 | ek said...

On the recumbent thing, definitely uses different muscles and, since you don't have your body weight to help you stomp down on the pedals, climbing is generally either more difficult or slower.

I know I'm no longer objective on this, but what's really cool about the BiGHA is that, because you're sitting upright (as opposed to being hunched over as on a traditional road or mountain bike), you have an entirely different riding experience. You can really see the world around you with full peripheral vision. When I'm on a road or mountain bike I often feel like I have tunnel vision because I have to stay so focused on the road ahead.

And what's nice about the BiGHA vs. most other recumbents is that it provides a higher riding position. Your eyes end up at very nearly the same level they'd be if you were on a road bike and, to me at least, this takes away the feeling of "dangerousness" (due to lack of visibility) that a lot of people get on traditional recumbents.

Oh well, enough selling. If anyone's going to be in Santa Monica area tomorrow you can try a BiGHA out for yourself (and get some tasty food). We're doing a test ride shindig as a co-promotional event with the Atlantic Monthly (we did one with Wired in SF last week that was awesome). We'll be at the pier at the end of the promenade from noon to 3pm ( more details here -- yes the blog is going to be overhauled too!).

12 Sep 2003 | scorched said...

I believe that the Ellsworth Dare is one of the most beautiful bikes made today. It's CNC parts are sexy, and the bike is probably one of the most burly bikes ever built. I know that everybody else here is all about road bikes (and I have a klein), but freeriding is my passion.

13 Sep 2003 | Dan said...

All nice bikes, but nothing beats the purity of a single-speed road bike with a flat-crown fork.

13 Sep 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

Recumbents definitely are better ergonomically: it's very hard to keep a neutral neck position on a serious road or mountain bike, and one friend of mine with carpal tunnel syndrome had to switch to a recumbent because his condition was exacerbated on a traditional bike. I took Alexander Technique lessons every week for about six years, and my teacher was always after me to stop riding my bike because it was tensing up my neck muscles, with a ripple effect throughout my body.

As ek said, the BIGHA is attractive too because the seat is higher than on many recumbents. In addition to the better riding position, it seems to avoid the risk with many recumbents that the rider would go into the steering tube and handlebars instead of over them in an accident. I've heard of at least one guy who had one of his cherries pitted that way.

14 Sep 2003 | Scorched said...

I've never heard so much talk of recumbents. I ride a bike because it's fun. I like twisty fast roads on my road bike; railing corners at silly speed is my reason for riding a skinny little bike. Mountain bikes for me are all about super fast downhill and technical climbing.

this is a serious question... what fun is a recumbent bike? are we just talking about effecient transportation, or is there some draw to them that I'm missing?

forgive my ignorance, I am truly interested.

15 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Hey Scorched, no worries, it's a good question.

I am not and almost certainly never will be a recumbent-only rider. I still love my steel Jamis road bike and bow down to my Ti Moots mountain, esp. on twisty ascents.

But for everyday riding and "just for fun" riding I prefer the BiGHA. The upright, feet-forward seating position makes it an order of magnitude more comfortable than a road or mountain bike (for one, because you're not hunched over with your neck craned, but also because you're not sitting on a hard wedge, and because your weight isn't loaded onto your palms).

Having your head and back are upright also allows you to see so much more of the world around you as you're riding. Maybe it's just me, but when I'm on my road and mountain bikes I find that I really have to focus on riding -- to the extent that I almost get tunnel vision.

When I'm on my BiGHA I don't have that feeling at all. I can see so much more. I find that I'm not focused on riding, but on the ride as a whole. It's one of those things that's really hard to explain, though. If someone told me this before I tried the bike my attitude would have essentially be "whatever." But my first ride really blew me away.

If anyone wants a more in-depth look at the bike you can see a 3rd-party review that was just recently posted to BentRiderOnline.com. My understanding is that it's one of the most repected resources for info on recumbents (or "bents" as recumbent folks call them).

But, ultimately, the BiGHA and recumbents in general aren't for everyone.

To Dan, it's funny you mentioned that because I've been starting to get the first pangs of wanting a single speed, though I would go for a single speed mountain bike vs. a single speed road bike. But given all my move related expenses it's going to be a long, long time before I get another bike. ;-)

15 Sep 2003 | Scorched said...

thanks for the info, that does make sense about the tunnel vision. on a road bike i have to make myself occasionally look around. so i can see the draw for that.

i love my single speed, if you really want one soon, go for the Specialized P1 and you can be rolling on a super fun bike with real components for about 500 dollars. It feels like a grown up BMX bike with it's geometry, and is SUPER fun around town. Once get the gear ratio you like, you'll be about to climb most anything once you find the flow.

15 Sep 2003 | f5 said...

On the beautifully handmade tip: These beauties are made in Portland, Oregon:

http://www.vanillabicycles.com/

16 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Yikes, just re-read my post -- I'll have to make sure to use the "Preview" feature from now on! ;-)

To Scorched, thanks for the tip on the Specialized P1. I didn't realize that they made single speeds. After reading your post I checked Moots' site and it turns out that they too now offer a single speed option on their mountain bikes.

The one I was thinking about, though, is from a Canadian company called Spot ( -- but be forewarned, the site is all flash based and starts out with some obnoxious audio). I'd go for their single speed mountain bike in either matte black or silver. Man, I need to win the lottery or come up with the successor to the pet rock.

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone would go for a jump-to-conclusions mat?

16 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Oops, screwed up my attempt to include Spot's URL. It is SpotBikes.com.

I also meant to note that they only make single speeds. There's something cool about that.

16 Sep 2003 | SU said...

I love what the Spot Brand site says about aluminum:

We don't use aluminum because it's great for holding beer, not making bike frames.

As a recent convert back to steel, I can say a big "Amen" to that.

18 Sep 2003 | Don Schenck said...

Tell me the chainless bike isn't cool!

18 Sep 2003 | ek said...

Wow, that is very cool, it's too bad the site is so bad.

Does anyone know any more about chainless drive systems for bikes? I'm guessing that there are probably some down sides, but I couldn't find any real info on that chainless site.

Kind of reminds me of internal gear hubs, which we use in addition to a traditional derailleur on the BiGHA (it's SRAM's DualDrive system -- 37s used to actually be right across the street from SRAM, shout out to the Chi-town companies! ;-). There's a bit of a weight penalty, but, for us, the upside of being able to provide 27 gear ratios in a comparitively simple package (the makes a front derailleur unnecessary) more than makes up for the downside.

Another cool aspect of the DualDrive is that you can shift the internal gear hub while at a complete stop or while stomping on the pedals during a climb. Either way you won't get any chain skip and you won't break any of the teeth in the mechanism because I don't think there are any teeth in it. Pretty cool stuff.

One final note, if anyone wants to see a real world fulfillment of the potential of bikes as everyday commuting vehicles you have to come out to Corvallis, Oregon. People of all ages, shapes, and sizes ride their bikes everywhere around here -- rain or shine -- and bikes and cars co-exist beautifully. It's awesome to see that it can really be done. And it's not that people are all fanatical about it, they just realize that bikes can be a useful mode of transport.

The key is that the state has enabled it by devoting 1% of all highway spending to making Oregon a bike-friendly place. That means almost every major road (in the cities and out) has a bike lane and you're never far from a secure place to lock up your bike. So most of the state has a lot of bike-based commuters, but I think the percentage is highest here in Corvallis. Very cool stuff.

I think Corvallis must also be the custom bike capital of the world. I've never seen so many home-made bikes.

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