04 Nov 2003 | MrAnonymous said...

Michael Moore, in England

As far as I'm concerned, he can stay there.

04 Nov 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

Ignorance ≠ stupidity.

National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 per cent of 18-25 year olds dont know where Great Britain is on a map.

That doesn't make them stupid, it just means they've been poorly educated.

And 92 per cent of us dont own a passport

So what? Maybe that means 92 percent of Americans can't afford to travel outside the country.

Yes, Americans as a rule tend to be more insular than people in some other countries. But again, that doesn't make them stupid, does it?

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

I don't see why people are insulted by this. They're not insulted because it's insulting, they're insulted because it's true.

I agree that the passport thing is a bit irrelevant, but 60% of 18-25 yr olds not being able to identify Great Britain is downright embarrassing.

04 Nov 2003 | Mark Fusco said...

controversial comments = publicity

Michael Moore is only trying to sell his book.

04 Nov 2003 | Michael said...

I don't understand why more Americans can't identify with modern liberalism, with thought leadership like this.

04 Nov 2003 | mikes said...

mike moore has made himself on sensationalism / fanaticism. its the way he gets heard. his opinion is so divergent, that to be heard he has to get all extreme, embellish and make barely arguable claims.

just like GW Bush.

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

Of course he's trying to sell his book. He's an activist, this is what they do. It's his job to say shit like this and be in people's faces. But don't ignore what he says just because his medium(s) also happen to put food on his plate. It's not like he's making these things up.

Also, Johnny Depp said America is stupid a couple months back and nobody said he was doing it for publicity. Why is it when he says it, it's just an opinion -- but when Moore says it he's got underlying motives.

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

mike moore has made himself on sensationalism / fanaticism. its the way he gets heard. his opinion is so divergent, that to be heard he has to get all extreme, embellish and make barely arguable claims.

just like GW Bush.

Please, give some examples of statements made by Moore that he's embellished. I implore you. I double-dog-dare you. You won't find any.

Doesnt saying things like these, comparing him to GW, making barely arguable claims make you a sensationalist yourself?

04 Nov 2003 | One of several Steves said...

One of my mottoes for years has been "never underestimate the stupidity of the American public." But, Moore is displaying the very same ignorance and stupidity that he's railing against.

Spend any time in Europe - and I mean spending time there, not just visiting periodically - and you discover very quickly that most people there are just as "stupid" and ignorant as most Americans. When I was living in Munich, when people found out I was from Chicago, they asked if I had to carry a gun around all the time because of all the violence. And they were serious. They see a few Al Capone movies and think this is the way Chicago is.

A Brit friend of mine periodically sends lists of responses from Brit game shows that show a comical ignorance of the world as well. Such as not knowing that California's a state in the United States, or answering that the Franco-Prussian war involved the Scottish, or nonesense like that.

Most people are unaware of the world around them. One can argue whether that makes them stupid. But it's hardly unique to America, and anyone who'd actually spent time outside America wouldn't be so ignorant and stupid that they don't realize that.

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

Oops, above: "just like GW Bush." should be italicized as well.

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

One of several Steves: agreed.

04 Nov 2003 | Mark Fusco said...

Johnny Depp was doing it for publicity. However, in what was probably a brilliant strategic move by ether him or Disney - recanted it before it damaged Pirates of the Caribbean. Just enough publicity to get his name in the paper after what had been seemingly a long absence to the mainstream.

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

Mark Fusco: that's more of a conspiracy theory than an argument isn't it?

04 Nov 2003 | ed said...

Essentially, M.M. is right. We may not be a "dumb" country overall, but we are most certainly ignorant and uneducated. what can we expect from crumbling education and social systems?

The passport issue is particularly upsetting to me and COMPLETELY relavent. Being an insular people is fine, if you are living in the tundra but we live in America, the single greatest political and cultural influence the earth has ever seen, bar none. That kind of influence comes with responsibilities, but we as a country lack the wisdom to handle it properly. The passport issue is almost a metaphore for our collective lack of interest in the people who inhabit countries other than our own. We see countries as places on the map, not human beings, individuals with thoughts and feelings.

I think America definitely does have the best of the best, but I also think that we have the worst of the worst. and I find this is troublesome because a lot of us are walking around with blinders on, about the second part.

M.M. may piss you off and you can disregard him, but he's right, on so many different levels. If we're going to grow as a people, we gotta be able to face our collective shadow and I think in the purest of terms, M.M. is putting the mirror up. and it may suck, but it's the truth.

04 Nov 2003 | Mark Fusco said...

Mark Fusco: that's more of a conspiracy theory than an argument isn't it?

Paul -

Maybe so. But isn't big business conspiracies, and how they keep the little guy down in keeping w/the gospel of Moore?

04 Nov 2003 | Paul said...

Not usually. His views are actually accompanied by facts.

04 Nov 2003 | Colin said...

The whole passport comment is an attempt to link unrelated concepts; I can find England on a map, but do not have a current passport. For me, passport ownership is economically influenced and is a metaphor for nothing.

Ask any European living in a tourist-heavy area and they will tell you that passport ownership does not equate with lack of ignorance. In their minds Americans come across brash and uneducated a majority of the time. The differences between our societies has as much to do with exposure and morays as anything.

Michael Moore is definitely pimping to a European desire to feel culturally elite, whether his comments regarding the weakness of our education system are valid or not.

04 Nov 2003 | SU said...

I'm wondering where Moore got his stat on Passport ownership. A search on Google returned this site with several external links to genuine statistics. The author of that blog then takes stats from the Department of State to come up with a figure more like 20%.

A low number, to be sure, but not as low as Moore's 8%.

04 Nov 2003 | Charbel said...

Everyone is looking at this from one point of view. The reason other countries seem less ignorant is because they cannot afford to be ignorant.

Their weaknesses and their dependency on external countries, especially dependency on US, the language, the culture, and the economy makes them be more aware of things. It's a necessity for them.

For us, it has not been a necessity yet. Although with the latest world events the past 2 years, it looks like we may start to be less ignorant out of necessity.

04 Nov 2003 | Scott M. said...

One of Several Steves is correct. If you've lived in Europe you'll know that ignorance certainly is not limited to people in the U.S. And I find sweeping generalizations are usually starting points for unproductive debates. But beyond the Moore's soundbite what is he really getting at?

Is it that decisions are being made by Americans (or should we say elected representatives of Americans) that have a global impact and yet those Americans are ignorant of peoples and cultures outside their borders? Can we presume to be the leader of the world when our policies are guided by self-interest and almost everyone else (exceptions? UK, Japan, Israel?) is treated as a second class citizen?

04 Nov 2003 | JF said...

Hey Schenck, what do you think? I mean I know what you think, but I want to hear you say it.

04 Nov 2003 | Noah Mittman said...

Come on, the passport thing is completely irrelevant.

I've always heard from visitors (workers on Visa at my jobs, foreign students that I met in college in NYC, etc.) that they're surprised how easy it is to move around in the U.S. from state to state. I'd say it's because normally that distance to them at home is the distance to an entirely different nation.

And hell yeah, if it took a passport to go from Delaware to New Jersey, more people would have them.

Meanwhile, people in Europe drive through other countries regularly, or take trains to them -- even under the English Channel, now -- because they are right next door.

Canada and Mexico are our only immediate neighbors, and even Canada does not require a passport to enter from the US border.

Face it: a) Many people cannot afford to fly over oceans to travel, and b) the real question Moore is asking is what kind of influence a nation isolated on one hemisphere should have over the nations on the other.

And that's not a new question. That's been the core of American foreign policy since the start of the Union.

04 Nov 2003 | mikes said...

Paul -

Bowling for Columbine was a great, important and truthful movie. but it was also a clever editing and wording act. you can't say that everything mike moore says should be taken at face value.

anyone who is as singularly opinionated as Bush, Moore, Ann Coulter, et al is too biased not to come across as playing their side of the story up.

04 Nov 2003 | Darrel said...

they asked if I had to carry a gun around all the time because of all the violence. And they were serious. They see a few Al Capone movies and think this is the way Chicago is.

Or maybe they just watch a few american news feeds. My wife spend 4 months in Australia and had the same questions asked of her.

Moore's point is that we, as Americans, need to pay attention to what's going on on this planet a bit better. We can debate the merits of his approach at delivering said point, but I think the point stands.

As for the passport issue, his point is that few of us travel outside the US. Again, we can argue the minutia about the stats or reasons why we don't travel, but that avoids the point he's trying to make.

04 Nov 2003 | Raena said...

More than half of the American people were convinced that Saddam Hussein was actually involved with the September 11th attacks, even as the administration took great pains to deny they ever said this. (link) And in June, a third believed that WMD's had been found in Iraq. (link)

Maybe these are the beginnings of a better example than who has a passport, or which countries you can't find on the map.

04 Nov 2003 | Darrel said...

you can't say that everything mike moore says should be taken at face value.

I think the message Moore got across with BFC is that we shouldn't take ANYTHING ANYONE says...especially from those in the media...at face value--himself included, I'm sure.

04 Nov 2003 | pb said...

Noah, that's ridiculous. Of course it's relevant. It's also relevant that we are geographically isalated compared to Europe and that travel to Canada doesn't require a passport. But the ignorance of what's going on outside our borders and un-travelled-ness of Americans is appalling, imo.

ANd it's because, as Schenck will say: America is the best, we don't need to apologize to the rest of the world, we're isolated, we don't need anyone else's culture, etc.

04 Nov 2003 | Patrick said...

The passport thing isn't as relevant as it would be if you were to say only 8% of people in Germany have passports. I live in Canada, and can go to Mexico / Caribbean and the United States without a passport. Those destinations are also much cheaper. Whereas, flying to Europe is costly - and believe me, I'd go every year if I could afford it, but I can't - so right now I'm passport-less. When I head back to Europe again, I'll be renewing my passport, but I still plan on travelling around my own country and the U.S in the meantime. If I lived in Germany, you can bet I'd have a passport and be driving to a different country several times a year.

04 Nov 2003 | farnsworth said...

I am sure Schenck would say "I will go lay in my hammock, fire up a Macanudo and let everyone else panic and postulate" all while believing that he is a good, aware person who just so happens to think that his country is #1. Or he would turf you lawn behind the wheel of El Spidero.

04 Nov 2003 | Brad Hurley said...

Moore's point is that we, as Americans, need to pay attention to what's going on on this planet a bit better.

Maybe, but it's worth questioning this perceived need for a more global focus. I bet more Americans can recognize Saddam Hussein than can recognize the mayor of their city or the manager of their town. Which is more important? Lots of Americans can recognize Osama bin Laden but far fewer can identify the bird singing in the tree outside their window. Which is more important?

I'm not advocating insularity, but I guess I've met too many people who devote all their time and energy to causes in far-off countries (Tibet, the Middle East, Africa) while paying no attention to what's going on in their own backyards.

Global awareness is good -- especially when it comes time to electing our leaders. But on a day-to-day basis, thinking and acting locally is important, too.

04 Nov 2003 | Darrel said...

thinking and acting locally is important, too.

Ah...key word: thinking.

We need to do more of it overall.

;o)

04 Nov 2003 | pb said...

http://members.cox.net/impunity/endofworld.swf

04 Nov 2003 | One of several Steves said...

Passports:

It's a red herring to say only 20 percent (or 8 percent or whatever) of Americans don't have passports. The country is the size of an entire continent. And it's isolated. And as others mentioned, the two neighboring countries don't require passports.

Until the late 1990s (I don't remember the exact year the Schengen Agreement went into effect), you needed papers to move from one country to another within the EU. You still need them to get into Switzerland. Some countries had worked out agreements where you just needed your ID card (like the US/Canada or US/Mexico), but getting around in your own backyard made getting a passport a smart thing to do. Especially when the largest country geographically in the EU, France, is smaller than probably about half the states in the US.

Darrell, valid point about the media impressions. Many Americans think crime is more severe than it actually is. Is it because they're stupid, or is it because the TV news media still hold to an "If it bleeds it leads" philosophy?

I'm not going to debate whether MM's point is a good one or not. Delivery of a point does matter. And, despite the fact I'm definitely a lefty and among the first to piss and moan about the many things I find wrong about the States, I find the left's reflexive "everything about America is bad" whining to be just as tiresome and stupid as the right's reflexive "America is the greatest place on earth" chest thumping.

05 Nov 2003 | Sergio said...

Well, being a Mexican who travels to the US with relative frequency, I'd have to say that yes, Americans in general lack a lot of education. As has been mentioned, that has nothing to do with being stupid. Just undereducated. But a good education tends to be the basis for critical thinking.

That aside, the amount of people in the US who ask me stupid questions about Mexico baffles me. A lot of them think that the country really is like it appears in Robert Rodriguez movies. That and "Wild On" constitute the extent of their foreign education. I'm not talking about all Americans, but the reality is there.

Another interesting thing is that Americans vacation like they colonize: Without mingling. They come to Mexico because of the beach and the sand, and then do their best to go to US-People-only parties or otherwise spend as little time as possible getting to know the people/culture of the place they're visiting. That is not the case with most european tourists.

I'm not trying to bash Americans here. I'm just stating an impression. This kind of stuff is why they're not very well regarded overseas either.

05 Nov 2003 | Jocke said...

I dont get it. The passport thing. Could it really be true? I have met tons and tons of Americans when I was travelling around Europe. I know you are numerous but it really sounds strange that 92% dont own a passport. I have no way of checking if this is true but I seriously doubt it.

05 Nov 2003 | Don Schenck said...

God Bless America, where Michael Moore and Ann Coulter can both live. Not bad for a "stupid" country, eh?

05 Nov 2003 | MrBlank said...

And where fiction can get an award for best documentary.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

05 Nov 2003 | Jason said...

Saw him at one of his recent speaking engagements where he gave that same quote as well as putting the Canadian student with the lowest grades he could find against 3 American students with the higest grades he could find in a geopolitical quiz. The Americans lost and missed some (IMHO) appallingly easy questions. Then during the Q&A section someone challenged his National Geographic stats but no one (including Moore) could figure out what his point actually was, other than perhaps National Geographic has a political agenda or something.

I don't really appreciate his generally insulting our group intelligence, but even the people at a Michael Moore speech seem to be unable to make a better showing.

05 Nov 2003 | Jason said...

Fuuny, both sides are using the same Heston speech transcript to say the other side is lying.
http://michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

I've got to side with Moore on this one, his main point being that the Denver NRA convention was still held after many people including the mayor asked them not to come (and offered them refunds on space, etc.). The argument that they had to still have it because it would be against their bylaws not to seems pretty week.

05 Nov 2003 | Chris said...

If we accept that Americans are under educated, what would Moore's solution be? Most assuradely a bevy of programs run by the government, that very same government that completely screwed up primary education in this country in the first place.

I'm not convived Moore even bvelieves half the crap he spews anymore. He is an entetainer, the Rush Limbaugh of the left, and should be taken about as seriously.

05 Nov 2003 | Darrel said...

MM comment on the passports was in reference to the fact that not a lot of us get out of the country which was in reference to the fact that that may be the reason we lack a better understanding of the world as a whole.

That's not an accusation, or an insult, or anything like that...just an observation.

There's no need to defend 'america' by stating 'but we're so big!' or 'but I've been to Canada!' type comment.

Mr. Blank...that link is just dreck. It's full of items like...

Ben Fitz also noted that Bowling's editors didn't bother to research the events before doctoring the ads. Horton's second arrest was not for murder. (The second set of charges were aggravated assault and rape).

Yes, how dare MM accuse a murder for performing second murders when, in fact, he only raped someone.

I'm not arguing MM couldn't be a bit more thorough in his fact checking, but that doesn't make the movie fiction. I don't know if it belonged in the documentary category, though. Either way, the movie wasn't really about taking sides. Maybe I just interpreted the movie differently than everyone else, but I saw it is a long string of semi-related rhetorical questions. I don't think he ever came out and said guns are bad, for instance. I don't know if he even thinks they are. I think he thinks we seem to have an infatuation with them. And, if you ask anyone outside our borders, they'd probably agree.

05 Nov 2003 | Mephisto said...

America and Europe have their idiots and their intellectuals - the difference is that Europeans are forced to communicate with other cultures while Americans dont. It the larger picture, Europeans are forced to learn more about themselves not other outside nations (like the U.S.). Americans learn only about the places they live and not even. I know people who live in Chicago suburbs that have gone in the Loop maybe twice in their lives. But most Greeks I know (I am Greek) have traveled Greece multiple times and know Greece.

05 Nov 2003 | Jonny Roader said...

Over the years this forum has provided ample proof that human intelligence is very much alive and well in the US.

But I have to say that *everyone* I know who has spent considerable time in America (or among Americans) comes away with an abiding impression that, yes, you are largely ignorant of the world outside your borders and that, yes, your educational standards seem pretty bloody low.

It's just one crappy example, but I remember being asked (as a recent graduate in the subject) to leaf through the Eng. Lit. work of a prospective 4.0 student during a three-month stay in New York. I couldn't believe what I was reading: it was shockingly poor, the kind of work you'd expect from a bright 14-15 year old in the bog-standard British comprehensive school I went to.

But don't worry, 'cos as we cut back on our own education and social programmes here in the UK we're catching you up rapidly! Soon our children too won't be able to point to France on the map, and will believe that the Second World War was between the US and Germany! Rule Britannia! ;)

05 Nov 2003 | Mike said...

the difference is that Europeans are forced to communicate with other cultures while Americans dont.

This is a most important point - While travelling in Europe I had the chance to attend some academic conferences, and had my eyes opened while watching the French, Italians, Spanish and Greek academics discuss the fishery situation in the Med. Just getting around the language differences to accomplish what North Americans (may) take for granted must have a profound affect on the development of the way people think and act.

05 Nov 2003 | JF said...

But I have to say that *everyone* I know who has spent considerable time in America (or among Americans) comes away with an abiding impression that, yes, you are largely ignorant of the world outside your borders and that, yes, your educational standards seem pretty bloody low.

Do you think it's always been like this? Did Europeans feel this way about Americans in the 50s? Or, is this a new revelation?

05 Nov 2003 | 8500 said...

I've always heard that the US primary eductation (k-12) is lacking when compared to those of European countries but our secondary and graduate programs are far superior. Hence many foreign students come to the U.S. to attend college and get their doctorates etc.

05 Nov 2003 | Jonny Roader said...

Do you think it's always been like this? Did Europeans feel this way about Americans in the 50s? Or, is this a new revelation?

I've no idea, but what I can say is this: people of my parent's generation seem to have a generally positive view of Americans. Growing up during the war, the US seems to have been idolised as a land of plenty for my parents in particular. The USA still symbolises a decadent, exotic way of life for my mum!

At the same time, I don't think the fact that you stayed out of the war until 1942 or whenever went down too well with many people from the UK old enough to remember the fifties.

But then again, there is still a tremendous respect for the fact that you did at all, and the contribution and sacrifice the USA made is taken very seriously.

I mention these factors simply because these are the impressions I've been left with. If pushed, I'd say that 'ignorant Yank' notion is a deceptively recent notion.

05 Nov 2003 | brian said...

Making sweeping generalizations of 292 million people seems kind of ridiculous to me.

05 Nov 2003 | Don Schenck said...

Michael Moore is ... is ... well ... he lacks any, ANY, credibility because he IMMEDIATELY dives into ad hominen attacks and is generally "over the top".

I recently read something he wrote *to fellow liberals*, and it was the first time I read or heard something by him that actually made some sense, was not offensive, and perhaps could sway me.

But call our entire nation stupid? Say it to my face.

05 Nov 2003 | Darrel said...

"But call our entire nation stupid? Say it to my face."

Chill, Don. No need to do the 'double dog dare you school yard bully' pose.

;o)

05 Nov 2003 | ML said...

Lose the incendiary language and Schenck and Moore may actually kind of agree:

You want world peace? ... make everyone travel to other cultures. You *cannot* travel to foreign lands and remain racist/nationalist/wacko -- with a few notable exceptions

05 Nov 2003 | Don Schenck said...

ML -- and I'll stand by that comment until I die.

But ignorance and stupidity aren't the same thing. Most Americans -- I honestly believe -- aren't *willfully* ignorant.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm heading home in my Saab (Sweden) and enjoying a Camacho (Honduras) on the way.

And who says I'm not multi-cultural? :)

05 Nov 2003 | mikes said...

if public schools didnt suck, there'd be no market for private schools!!

05 Nov 2003 | TheDon said...

The context in which the quote was taken is probably very important. His comments about passports may seem irrelevant but that certainly depends on the context it was taken from, doesn't it?

Here in Canada one of our issues is that it costs less to travel to other countries than it does to fly from the East coast to the West coast, so many Canadians suffer from ignorance about their neighbours because travelling is too costly. Perhaps Moore's comments were suggesting that too many Americans aren't travelling as much as they should or as much as he'd like them too in order to learn more about the world they live in.

06 Nov 2003 | indigenous said...

they asked if I had to carry a gun around all the time because of all the violence. And they were serious. They see a few Al Capone movies and think this is the way Chicago is.

Maybe it wasn't Al Capone movies they saw, maybe it was Bowling for Columbine ...

06 Nov 2003 | Don Schenck said...

See some movies and think that's how Chicago is?

Isn't that rather ... dare I say ... "stupid" of them?

:-)

06 Nov 2003 | Don Schenck said...

ML -- one more thing: Go to my blog and read my short essay entitled "CAFE, Context, and Community". You may be shocked.

06 Nov 2003 | Toby said...

He's pandering to the British (and European) perception of Americans. Ironically, most of these views were formed from American media (hint: we exaggerate our flaws for the TV, it's called comedy and drama). Anytime I drink with a Brit, I hear the same damn criticisms:

1) Americans drink shite beer! (I'd agree the mass-produced stuff is shit, but the regional and micro-brews are exceptional.)

2) Americans are rubbish 'cause they don't play football/American football sucks! (Yeah, and you don't play Lacrosse, does that mean you suck? They can't seem to appreciate that we have a different culture and prefer out own sports.)

3) Rugby's better than American Football -- look they wear pads and [h]elmets. (While there is plenty of pawing and grappling in Rugby, nobody hits like a football player. Little known fact, before colleges began supplying helmets, Theodore Roosevelt almost banned football due to the alarming death rate. Anyone who believes football is a 'pussy' sport has never played the game. Australian Rules Football, however, puts every other sport to shame.)

4) Americans are brutish and dumb. (This? Coming from the land of the soccer hooligan? Puhleeze.)

5) American atheletes are fat and stupid! (True, baseballplayers, can get chunky, as it is more of a game of technique. Football linemen, too, but they need to be big -- part of the game. However, few soccer players are in as good a shape as our the average running back, for example. The "American" sports -- Hockey, Basketball, Football -- have some of the most physical atheletes out there.)

6) Americans don't got Passports, because they are arrogant, self-centered, and do not appreciate world culture. (Um, our country is so large, varied, and cheap to travel through, that, yes, most folks forgo European trips to explore their backyard. European 'backyards' are so damn tiny, you need a passport to get from one to the next. I have a passport, but have only been able to afford to leave the continent once. Let's see you find Peoria on a map, bub.)

And a note to British travellers: Yes, America is different and it is not like home. Get over it.

There, I feel better. Sorry for the long post.

06 Nov 2003 | Toby said...

Indigenous...

A black friend of mine travelling in Germany was once asked if he was a freed slave. No shit. Apparently they just saw Amistad. While touring France, a friend from the University of Montana was once asked if she carried a six-shooter everywhere.

My point: the average European's view of America comes from the movies and TV. It helps them maintain their view that America must be an inferior place. (Another minor rant: one of the goals of the Lewis and Clarke expedition was to prove that North American flora and fauna were not "inferior" to those found in Europe -- at the time, European naturalists believed that the North American 'air' was less conducive to 'proper' lifeforms.)

06 Nov 2003 | Kire said...

All I'm going to say is that, as a Canadian living near the American border, I'm scared as hell of you people.

I lived in Washington DC for four years. I see your news.

And it's been three years since I've set foot in the USA. And goddammit, I'm not going to for a very long time. Odds are I'll get labelled a terrorist and thrown in one of your horrid jails which breed more and more crime.

Glad he's not on the sinking ship,
Kire.

06 Nov 2003 | pek said...

Good for you, Kire. There are enough pussies in the US as it is.

08 Nov 2003 | Colin said...

Argh... You're all arguing the wrong bloody point. It has nothing to do with who's better, who's got more freedom, who's got a more tarnished past, etc.

As a Canadian living in a town which vacationing Americans seem visit in droves, let me put this to rest once and for all: Neither myself, nor my fellow Canucks, nor most of the civilized world dislikes Americans, or thinks you're uneducated boobs.

I have had nothing but pleasant experiences with American tourists. You guys are very polite, you stop more often at crosswalks than anyone with a BC license plate, and I've figured out that "uh-huh" really is a colloquialism, and not as rude as it initially seems.

So what's the real issue here? Well personally, I dislike the current US government, and I dislike the major US media outlets.

I'm not going to delve into why, nor am I going to argue that such-and-such a country's leader/media is better/worse. I hate Global TV here in Canada too. There, now no one's feelings are hurt. Or everyone's are, who cares?

But the constant drone of Bush/CNN are grating after a while. I swear, hearing the words "terrorist attack" on TV means nothing to me anymore-- the word terrorism has been so diluted by the government and the media that it really has no shock value anymore:

Terrorist strike in Israel, Terror threat level is orange, Bush uses {insert international summit here} to urge support in the war against terror... Bleh! What terror level is the US on these days? I don't know, I haven't checked in ages, and Extreme Makeover is still on TV, so it must be fairly low.

I met a nice guy up from San Diego at the local pub the other day. We chatted outside over a smoke, and did the usual Canadian/US stuff. ("Hey! You have Marlboro... Can I have one? Wanna see the giant, infected lung on a Canadian pack of smokes?", etc.)

He was there with a friend, drinking and playing pool. Towards the end of the night, I noticed his friend had left, and was being harassed by a couple of regulars whom he'd struck up a conversation with:

Regular: "What's the capital of Edmonton?"
San Diego: "Huh?"
R: "The capital of Edmonton!"
S: "I don't know. What?"

And so on. As I was leaving, I ran into him outside, still being chided by the regulars. I mentioned to him he should ask them what the capital of San Antonio was. Guess what! They didn't know, but they took a couple of good stabs at it-- including Dallas.

So what's the point of all this? Am I bringing this meandering post to a close? Yes. The point is, dislike the media, dislike the government, but quit arguing about the people. Neither the media or the government speak for the majority of them.

Ignorance knows no borders. Now play nice.

Colin

08 Nov 2003 | zutman said...

oh all this silliness.

michael moore had his main facts staight: the amount of gunshot deaths AND people in jail in the US of A is staggering. the rest of his 'documentary' doesn't matter,. to me at least. it was nice viewing, though.

BTW, about Geopolitics & all that muck: If the US wants to convince the rest of the world, they have to start with the most difficult countries: France and Iran. The rest is easy. Invading Iraq was/is silliness.

(from Holland; no. the capital is not Copenhagen. thank you very much. next please!)

09 Nov 2003 | JTSpencer said...

Wow, you managed almost thirty posts before this degenerated into the standard interweb Left vs. Right, US vs. Europe, Them vs. Us type arguments.

A thought on all the anti-American feelings going round at he moment: People look to the democratically elected leaders of a country as a fair representation of it's people.

10 Nov 2003 | warren said...

Bzzzzz.

The capital of Holland is Amsterdam, but it's government seat is in The Hague.

- an american, in georgia.

10 Nov 2003 | jimbo said...

Cant anyone see the bigger picture here? - that guy schenk is the biggest wanker of all time.

10 Nov 2003 | warren said...

Jimbo, I think you may have out done him.

11 Nov 2003 | Don Schenck said...

Warren ... HOW DARE YOU? Jimbo can't touch me!

And Jimbo, PU-LEEZE ... it's S-C-H-E-N-C-K. If you're gonna try to insult me, at least get my name right.

And if you think you're going to insult me ... get in line! Heck, my own wife (of 25 years on Nov. 10 thankyewverymush) can do better than that.
---------------------------------
In the end, Michael Moore = Rush Limbaugh.

They are both *entertainers*.

13 Nov 2003 | rigent said...

Though I agree with a lot of Moore's points of view, I really hate the way he goes about promoting them. He's such a sensationalist, 'bowling...' was an entertaining doc but there was so much about it that was almost tabloid.

I guess he feels like he needs to make these kind of statements to get people's attention, to agitate, and of course to sell books. Pity, it's good to stimulate discussion, but I don't think the right kind of discussion starts off with, 'americans are stupid...'

14 Nov 2003 | rjk said...

Check this site for the actual number of passports issued in the U.S.

http://travel.state.gov/passport_statistics.html

U.S passports are good for 10 years. Do the math. (If you can.)

Looks like about 20 percent or more of the population has passports. So Michael is off by about 250 percent. Closer than a lot of what he says.

14 Nov 2003 | Jason said...

Don't forget:

1. Passports for kids only last 5 years.
2. Those numbers almost definitely include people that had to have their passports reissued because of loss or theft when they still would have been otherwise valid. Might even include name changes. That's a lot of people, it's hard to not lose something over 10 years :)
3. Those numbers are definitely trending up, even considering population growth, so any stats a couple years out of date would be a fair bit lower.

That said I'd guess the 22% based on the raw data becomes around 15-18% of people that currently have one that they could travel with. Still a lot higher than 8% tho, don't know how you'd get that.

16 Nov 2003 | Grad Assistant said...

A wise man once told me to look at the world from another person's viewpoint before you criticize what he does. Or maybe it was just Dr. Phil. No matter....

Why do most Americans (or Australians or Kenyans or Peruvians or Iranians or....) need to go to Europe? What will I learn that I don't already know from email conversations or reading books/magazines? Sure, I can soak up the "ambience" of a Parisian sidewalk cafe, but -- who cares? If I am a 52yo factory worker in Flint Michigan, a 29yo janitor in Lawrence Kansas, or a 63 chicken farmer in Gadsden Alabama, how will that change my life in some meaningful way? The experience won't help my daily survival, job prospects, or any other circumstance of my life.

If we only look at the segment of the country that can really afford to go to another country and enjoy themselves, I'd bet the % that owns passports is pretty high (40-50%). For others, that's $2-5K that surely has better use here at home.

17 Nov 2003 | Outsider said...

It was a joy reading this particular discussion as a dutch exchange student from the Netherlands.

The comment I would like to make, is the following. We had a TV show dedicated to travelers once. The host would ask Dutch people on vacation in Spain to point out where they were on the map, and most of the people on the show were not able to figure out where Spain was. Do you seriously think they would leave in the people that do know? No.

The point MM is trying to make is not about that one person in Big Rapids, Michigan. Globalization represents the arising dominant culture and connects rising developments into one system. Even that guy in Big Rapids uses products made in other parts of the world, Europe, Asia, Africa or South-America. We, as inhabitants of the world, have a responsibility to be aware of and act upon what's not only good for us, but also for people in the less fortunate countries.

19 Nov 2003 | andrei said...

it's not americans that are ignorant, it's media that makes news and serves info. when is the last time you heard anyThing about Canada or Mexico (our neighbors) outSide of accidents and disasters w/ human losses? how come More never speaks of that? cause he wants to be heard by them and published.
prostitute is not a profession, it's way of ones life - GO w/Money!!!