18 Feb 2004 | CM Harrington said...

Painful!

What is going on with the Germans? First the BMW 7, then the 5, and now the Audi A6? Did someone replace their industrial designers with Folger's Crystals? Thank goodness the Mercedes designers have picked up the slack. Their current crop are far more handsome than either BMW or Audi. It's a shame Mercedes doesn't understand driver-centric design [as BMW used to]

18 Feb 2004 | Charbel said...

I love the outside of the A6, very similar to the new A8...but the inside doesn't look up to par with Audi standards..it looks kind of cheap for now...

18 Feb 2004 | Mike said...

I think it looks pretty sweet. I like how they ported the grill design over from the Nuvolari concept I loved that the moment I saw it. Too bad the lights aren't LEDs ;)

So where's the A3? Where's the BMW 316ti hatchback? I'll tell you where, they're stuck in Europe. The higher-end car makers really aren't taking advantage of the entry-level luxury sports hatchback market over here in the states. I think I might test drive a MB C230 Sports Coupe soon... does anyone own one?

18 Feb 2004 | Paul said...

I'm not nuts about that grille. The rear end is pretty tasteful and feels athletic.

18 Feb 2004 | Don Schenck said...

YAUA - Yet Another Ugly Audi. Suddenly, my Spyder doesn't look so fugly.

18 Feb 2004 | CM Harrington said...

In response to "Mike"...

Well, the 3 series Ti just didn't sell well in the US, and the typical American wants "bigger/more HP" [despite the fact that they don't know the difference between HP and torque], so I don't think the small Ti will ever come again to the US shore.

I don't own a C230, but I've driven it. The build quality isn't up to standard, and I couldn't see if they offered a manual transmission [the one I drove was auto... I hate autos], but it is nice *looking*. All things equal, I'd choose the Acura TSX [The American version of the European Honda Accord]

18 Feb 2004 | Mike said...

According to the Mercedes Benz US website, the C230 Sports Coupe comes standard with a manual transmission. It sounds promising, but then I realize that it will be the sole vehicle with a manual transmission in the entire US lineup...

Als, I find it odd that the BMW 325Ci Coupe has 17 lb-ft of torque less than the C230 Sports Coupe at 3500 RPM (175 compared to 192). Also, the C230's engine is only a 1.8L inline 4, while the BMW is running with the 2.5L inline 6 — so where did this extra torque come from?

I drove a 330i Sedan a few weeks ago, and honestly, I didn't like the interior. The dash and cockpit controls just didn't do it for me, even though the manual transmission was butter smooth.

JF, what's the the torque line like on your S4?

18 Feb 2004 | Benjy said...

18 Feb 2004 | One of several Steves said...

Wow. This is terrible. I literally cannot find an angle I like this car from. That grille is monstrous. The straight nose shot makes the car look like it's been pinched. The shape of the trunk lid is bizarre, and the chrome strip across looks cheesy. The bottom character line creates a bizarre shape with the rear deck, the lights don't really fit (you're right; Audi should have with the other lights).

The interior is getting too cluttered and busy compared to Audi's usual oustanding standards. But this is a major step backwards, as far as I'm concerned.

It will be interesting to see it in person. I wasn't wild about images of any of the latest-generation BMWs, but I really like all of them in person.

18 Feb 2004 | Benjy said...

I think the overall design of the new A6 is fine, but I'm not sure that the new grille design--which I understand will be the new corporate face of all Audis--works well with American-sized license plates. Here's quick mock up I did after researching the differences in plate sizes. The proportions are all off and the elegence of the front end is severely compromised.

While the Germans may be straying in regards to their design excellence, the Swedes and Italians deserve some props. My two new favorite car designs are the new Volvo S40 and the Maserati Quattroporte.

18 Feb 2004 | Don Schenck said...

From my Spyder, I see a lot of grills.

:-)

18 Feb 2004 | ~bc said...

I've always thought the A6 was the ungainly one of the audi sedan lineup. The A4 had the strongest presence, then the A8 was just all out, with the A6 lacking direction in the middle. To swoop a lot (A8) or to swoop on top, and counter balance with angles (A4)? This A6 seems to strike more of a balance than before.

I do see the slight similarity to the Camry, but many cars now a days can be compared as such. Part of it too, is that the Camry was advertised on TV in that exact shade of red (the commercials where the guy drives all over the city and no one else is around). Makers of sedans look to not alienate anyone, and take their design chances in coupes, like Minis and TT's

As for the grill, I felt an allusion to the Bentley grill, with that badge-like shape. Daimler - Chrysler has had this shape of late, as well (ie Crossfire). I like it. And the shape compliments the body swoops well.

18 Feb 2004 | Gabriel Bridger said...

Mike - I drove the MB Sports Coupe last Fall at a Mercedes driving program. Here's my take on it in comparison to my MINI: The MINI vs the C230 Sports Coupe. Long story short - don't bother.

18 Feb 2004 | Gabriel Bridger said...

It seems as if Audi is searching for some design language to take it to into the next 10 years and is ending up with a look that simply isn't cohesive and certainly isn't as profound as what we saw 4-8 years ago. I'm sure this will raise the ire some of you BMW design critics but for my money the A6 absolutely fails where the new 5 series succeeds.

Granted Audi has a lot going for it. The A4 Avant is an incredibly good looking car and the A8 is simply sublime but even that will be changing with the introduction of the tall vertical grille currently seen on the 12 cylinder model.

18 Feb 2004 | Steve from Denver said...

Off Topic, but I'm mad. I'm driving I-25 south in my 97 A4 and hit a huge rock from the T-Rex construction project. Flattened 2 tires and destroyed both rims on the driver's side. Almost $1,000 in damage (2 new rims and 4 new tires). I'm still pissed, and I'll probably still be pissed tomorrow.

I can hardly hold my lunch when I look at my A4 now with the mini-me spare on the front and a black steel rim on the rear.

Back to the topic at handno, I dont like it.

19 Feb 2004 | ek said...

It's a sad day when Audi is taking design cues from Saturn. If I were Saturn, I'd get my lawyers on the phone. ;-)

Unlike most here, though, I actually like the front. I do prefer the headlight/taillight treatment JF linked to, but all told, I think the front of the car is very nice.

To Mike and CM, the Germans are about to make a huge push into the bottom-end of the luxe market.

BMW's 1-series is just about ready to go, Audi is bringing over a 5-door (it's a hatch) version of the A3 in the near future, and Mercedes is about bring the A-class Stateside, along with one or two models from their Smart marque (and remember that Mini is owned by BMW).

On the C230 — as someone else said, don't bother. That car is a POS and a serious poseur-mobile.

19 Feb 2004 | david said...

The A6 design isn't great...but then, the current A8 exterior is damn near perfect, so I'm sure the company will pull out of it.

On a side note: does anyone else see some similarity to the Saab 9-3 in the dash? [Comparison: 1, 2]

Other recent designs that I really like: the Quattroporte and S40 (as mentioned above), the Saab 9-3 cabrio, the Mercedes E-series (sedan and wagon), and the BMW 6. Oh, and the new Toyota Solara.

19 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

I think it looks fantastic. Gone is the sleepy, conservative design of older Audis. It draws from their Nuvolari concept from a few years ago.

New, hip designers like Chris Bangle (who designed the new 5 as well as others) & J Mays (of 'new' Beetle fame and Ford) are bringing in fresh and edgy designs back to mainstream.

Why is everyone 'raising a stink' about the new BMW 5 series? I think it looks amazing. Better in person than in the magazines and 'net.

For a good read on new auto designs

Now, why can't we have our german diesels back in the US?

19 Feb 2004 | Mike said...

Eh, that A-class looks like a souped-up golf cart.

The info everyone gave was great, but I think I might still drive the C230 for the heck of it.

I'll you one thing though, Mercedes' UK site is awful. Drop-down navigation for the whole site isn't doing anyone any good.

19 Feb 2004 | pb said...

I think the new 5s are even worse in person because they have so few good lines, goofy head/tail-lights, droopy shoulders, etc. The 7s are more compelling.

I don't like the A6's grill either. Makes it look unsleek, unsporty and slow. The rear works on occasion but has a few angles that, as a poster mentioned, are saturnesque.

The only Mercedes that has any character at all is the SL, which is terrific.

19 Feb 2004 | ek said...

Mike, seriously now, don't do it. The C230 is absolute garbage. Buying one is like sticking a sign on your back that says "look at me, I'm a loser who'll buy anything with Merc badge on it." It is the Hummer of compacts.

The car has ZERO redeeming qualities. Really.

As for Bangle and BMW's recent generation of designs, I think they can be summed up in two words: Flash intro.

Superfluous, self-indulgent, and outdated the second they hit the market. BMW fans the world over are breathing a sigh of relief now that Bungle has been politely kicked upstairs where he won't be able to do any more real damage.

19 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

I guess I'm alone in enjoying Bangle's designs. I think the new 7, 5, and Z4 are wonderful. I have driven all three and they are so much better looking in person. If I wanted a 'rounded' vehicle I wouldn't look much past a Ford Taurus. Every other sedan out there is a derivation of that design anyway. I felt the past A6 was a bit anemic in comparison to this new one. Then again, the A8 is boring as well.

What is wrong with an edgy design to mix it up a bit? Bangle lent a hand with the Mini and it looks fantastic and is a success despite what stodgy old Mini fans expected BMW would do to it.

To each his own.

19 Feb 2004 | Gabriel Bridger said...

Chris K: BMW has recently announced that they are bringing their acclaimed inline six diesels to the US in the coming years.

EK: I'm sure those of us who love the new 5 series could go on for hours discussing it's virtues and why it's incredible work but it would be rehashing a tired argument. It's worth noting that Bangle didn't design the Z4, 5, 6, or 7 series. BTW 6 and the 7 were done by Adrian van Hooydonk who has just been promoted to BMW design director position.

19 Feb 2004 | Benjy said...

Chris K., VW sells a Jetta diesel here presently.

As for Chris Bangle's designs, they do take some time to get used to. I've always loved his Z4 because I think that his edgy style works best on a sportier car. I also like the new 6 series, which I got to see in person at the Chicago Auto Show a couple weeks ago.

The 7 is growing on me, as is the 5 series. I ripped the 5 series a new one when its design was debated here month ago, but now that I've seen a few on the roads and got time to study it at the auto show, I'm starting to like it. Except for those damn headlights...

19 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

GB: If Bangle didn't directly sketch/draw/model these designs, they certainly have his signature all over them. As part of DesignWorks USA - I'm sure he lent his ideas.

The new 5 has polarized the automotive press. This means its good in my eyes. Like a good movie - some hate it, some love it.

Spoke with a VW dealer this past weekend and they are expecting the V10 TDI Touregs in June (if not sooner). This will be one hot SUV (which I may have to consider) with 552 lb-ft of tourque. Rumour has 0-62mph in 6.5 seconds. Too bad the diesel price premium will be atrocious.

19 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

Benjy: I'm aware of the TDI Jetta (basically the only foreign diesel passenger car sold in the US as of right now) - what I meant was BMW diesels, and Merc diesels. I miss the ol' 240 and 300D Mercs. I had an '84 300D that lasted 312,000 miles before I retired it. That's engineering! It got great gas mileage and loved long highway stretches.

19 Feb 2004 | hp said...

I personally am underwhelmed with the new A6. I would not say that it's bad but I would not say that it's great either. The interior bothers me more as it seems to have lost some of the clean looks one has come to expect from Audi. Still, I'll wait to see it in person.

As for recent BMWs, I have to say that I like them all although I will admit that certain elements could benefit from improved execution. Personally, I prefer the new 5 Series and X3.

On the diesel issue, I think that the European carmakers are waiting for the new rules for much cleaner diesel fule to kick in to bring their high tech Euro engines over here. The same reason is holding excellent FSI and similar engine technology from being available in the U.S. On this topic, I have to say that BMW 330d is an incredible vehicle and by far the best one in the 3 Series lineup with the exception of M3. I use one when in Europe and absolutely love it.

Speaking of design, I personally prerfer unconventional design, which is why I really like the second generation of Renault Megane especially the berlina edition.

19 Feb 2004 | One of several Steves said...

Count me as a fan of the Bangle-directed designs from BMW as of late. When design is becoming more important to cars than ever, you have to be bold and have a distinct signature. Especially in the increasingly crowded performance/luxury segment. BMW was in danger of getting stale - as Mercedes has been for years; the new E-Class is a bit better than the former grandpamobile, but still not all that compelling - if they simply evolved their existing designs. They took a bold leap forward, and being polarizing is often a good thing when it comes to design, because it inspires passion for the brand. No one is getting into impassioned discussions about what a Mr Potato Head/train wreck the Kia Amanti is (I saw one review say it's what would happen if you mated an E-Class and a waffle iron).

And I'll give credit to Audi for that with the A6. While I can't find much of anything I like, it is bold and daring. Bold and daring is always a risk (see the Fiat Multipla for the downside of risky design), but it's what helps set you apart.

Playing it safe almost always gives you crap. Like the hugely overrated J Mays and his stultifyingly dull Ford Five Hundred.

19 Feb 2004 | Gabriel Bridger said...

The Ford Five Hundred - interestingly one of the only cars with no one around it at this year's Chicago Auto Show.

19 Feb 2004 | ek said...

Wow, I guess someone's been passing around packets of ugly flavored Kool Aid. Oh well, I guess there are those who like Flash intros as well.

Here's the thing; fungus grows on you, design shouldn't have to. And the point of car design is not to polarize public opinion, it's to sell cars. BMW owners are passionate about their cars because they are, in most cases, the ultimate driving machines in their segments — not because they have Dame Edna headlights or trunks that could double as Harrier landing pads.

And it's not just that the 7 and 5 series are ugly, they're poorly executed. The gap between the rear decklid and body on the 7 is as wide as the Grand Canyon and the proportions are all wrong on the 5. But the worst thing about both has to be their interiors. I wonder if the people responsible for the 7 ever thought to themselves: "if we need to actually include a pamphlet to explain to valets how to start the car, maybe it's a little too confusing?" (a primer for valets is included with every 7-series). And the 5s interior is just a mess — no cohesion, poor material quality, and poor panel fit, particularly on the doors. And, worst of all, they've made a fundamental shift away from being driver oriented, which used to be a BMW hallmark.

"Edgy" design does not excuse shoddy design and no one ever kept themselves from buying a car because it was too beautiful.

And please don't try to absolve Bangle of this train wreck. Saying that he, as design director, was not responsible is like saying the conductor of an orchestra is not responsible for his group's music because he's not the one playing the instruments. He set the tone and the direction and the responsibility lies at his feet.

The one thing we all seem to agree on, though, is that the Ford Five Hundred is absolute crap. What makes it all the more sad is that the original concept for the Five Hundred was beautiful. What in the world happened?

19 Feb 2004 | hp said...

It seems that Ford decided to make Five Hundred be VW Passat -like but bigger and with worse proportions and that putting a weak engine in would make it irresistible. Mercury Montego (if that's what it's called) is even worse with that grille.

19 Feb 2004 | One of several Steves said...

Wow, I guess someone's been passing around packets of ugly flavored Kool Aid. Oh well, I guess there are those who like Flash intros as well.

It's that open-mindedness of yours that I've come to love, ek. If you don't like it, it must be wrong. (By the way, it's perfectly possible to hate flash intros and like the new BMW design direciton. Oddly enough, they're not related.)

I'm not saying they're perfect cars - few are, although the 3 Series comes close. I can find details in pretty much every car on the market that don't work. But the overall effect of the 5, 7 and Z4 (and especially the new 6) works very well for me.

And the point of car design is not to polarize public opinion, it's to sell cars.

And, funnily enough, BMW is doing just that, both in the overall line and in the 7 Series, which is outselling its predecessor. (Too early yet to gauge the 5 Series, but anecdotal evidence of the number of them I'm seeing already out here in southern California seems to indicate that BMW is not having trouble moving the metal.)

And I disagree with the implication that poliarization damages sales. I remember 20 years ago when the Ford Taurus came out with a radical design that was very polarizing - and proceeded to outsell every car on the market for a very long time.

Yes, striking design does increase the risk that it won't be accepted. But Detroit's done a good job of showing over the last 30 years just how far safe design gets you. (Granted, Toyota kinda throws that argument off-kilter a bit, but they win so many points on quality and reliability that dull doesn't cost them anything.)

I wonder if the people responsible for the 7 ever thought to themselves: "if we need to actually include a pamphlet to explain to valets how to start the car, maybe it's a little too confusing?"

Agreed that that is a major flaw with the 7 Series. Owners shouldn't need a two-hour class before driving their car home. Definitely a case of getting starry-eyed with the possibilities of technology. (To their credit, they've been paring back the iDrive on the 5 and the 6 series, but it still seems to be trying to cram too many basic functions into an elaborate interface.)

19 Feb 2004 | ek said...

The residuals on the 7 are, as the kids say, "teh suck." If you want a 7, just make sure you're ready to take a bath, because you will.

All the American manufacturers are pretty good at moving metal too (boy, do I see a lot of American made pick-ups, SUVs, and minivans on the road, not to mention Ford Tauruses and the like), does that mean their cars are great?

And it's not safe design that has the U.S. manufacturers screwed. It's their crappy quality, utter lack of attention to detail, and their wholly unsustainable infrastructures.

You made the point beautifully yourself: look at Toyota. It gets no blander than that and yet they're world beaters. Same with Honda — just one step behind Toyota on the vanilla meter. Yet both are rocking.

19 Feb 2004 | Gabriel Bridger said...

70K plus luxury cars always lose enormous amount of their value. The issue is well known in the industry and doesn't only affect BMW but also Audi, Mercedes, and Jaguar.

It's like housing values for 10 year old McMansions in the suburbs - no one wants to buy something 2nd hand when they can easily afford something new and to their exact specs.

What's the car with the best resale value of all BMW made vehicles - the $17,000 MINI.

19 Feb 2004 | ek said...

True, but the losses being seen by current generation 7-series owners is well beyond the norm for cars in that class.

19 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

Geez ek - have you sat in a new 5? I have test driven a 545i and it was fantastic. It retains BMW's legendary road feel (albeit somewhat numbed from the E39) and the power delivery was awesome. I still maintain that the original E34 w/ 4.0 & 4.4 V8s are amongst the fastest cars from 50-80mph (think on-ramp).

The fit and finish, to me, were up to BMW standards. The proportions are spot on. The new 5 is taller (hence more headroom), yet they mask this by lowering the "skirt line" a bit. The interior was much more exciting than the E34 and E39s of the past. The iDrive was simple to operate after you experiment a little. The new heads-up display was very useful (since I am a leadfoot).

I know sales figures are no indicator of great design - but my dealer can't keep them on the lot (mainly 525s and 530s). Stick a 3 litre diesel in it and sign me up.

20 Feb 2004 | One of several Steves said...

All the American manufacturers are pretty good at moving metal too (boy, do I see a lot of American made pick-ups, SUVs, and minivans on the road, not to mention Ford Tauruses and the like), does that mean their cars are great?

Well, leaving aside for the moment that you're changing the terms of the discussion midstream (your original point was that "the point of car design is not to polarize public opinion, it's to sell cars"), sales doesn't automatically equal a "good" car. (And I'll also set aside for a moment that one person's definition of a good car is vastly different from another's - few would dispute that a Ferrari Enzo is a "good" car, but if I'm looking to haul around a family of five, it suddenly isn't so good anymore.)

Yes, there are a lot of American cars on the road. There are also a whole hell of a lot less of them than there used to be. Especially when we're talking literal cars, and not trucks and SUVs, which is the one thing the Americans can still sell reasonably well. When the Big Three have gone from having 75-80 percent of the market 40 years ago to barely 50 today, they are not doing well.

Toyota and Honda are a bit of an exception to the rule, as I mentioned, given how far ahead of the crowd they are because of quality and reliability.

And, by the way, 20 percent drop in value for a two-year-old car is hardly "taking a bath." Most carmakers would kill for those sorts of residuals.

20 Feb 2004 | ek said...

To Steve, huh? I read your post a few times and I still don't see a point.

To Chris, I have a huge amount of respect for the engineering and driving dynamics of the new 5. I think it's still the best in its segment and I very much doubt that the new A6 is going to do anything to change that. It's just the bits you can see in the new 5 that suck.

But hey, that's just me. There are plenty of people in the world who think Windows is a great operating system too (btw, coincidentally, I'm pretty sure iDrive is Windows-based — what a surprise).

20 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

Given the alternatives to me, Windows XP is the best operating system, to me. I'm happy that OS X has made Macs much more popular these days - but given that my employer has over 20,000 desktop PCs with Windows installed (not counting thousands of servers) it is in my best interest to know and use Windows evey day. BTW- my first PC ever was a 1984 Mac (512K).

It's funny you bring up windows because I was just wondering the other day why is it that almost every blog/design/css-based site I visit has an empowered Mac user preaching the superiority of their Mac? I'm all for both operating systems. What can a Mac do that a Windows XP machine cannot? Both OS's are so similar (GUI-wise) it is scary. I have had my hands on a recent Powerbook G4 w/ OS 10.3 and it was nice but nothing on it would make me switch. Besides, I have so much money invested in Windows based software - a "switch" is out of the question. An equivalent laptop alone would cost me over $3000 (mine was $1500).

I have had Windows XP installed since the retail release and I have not experienced any major problems. If you previously used 95, 98, or Me - it's no wonder you "switched."

Sorry to go off topic but I have been wondering of late - what can Mac OS X do for me that XP cannot? I would like to hear a valid argument.

20 Feb 2004 | JF said...

More news on the New A6, including these tempting nuggets:

"Audi will also launch a short-wheelbase coup based on the A6, although the Nuvolari-inspired two-door will be sold as a model in its own right, like the rival BMW 6-series and Mercedes CLK."

"At the top of the A6 range, Audi is planning a two-pronged performance car attack. Ingolstadt engineers are believed to be developing a twin-turbo 500bhp V8 for a new RS6 to take on the E55 AMG, plus a 5.0-litre V10, powered by a detuned version of the Gallardo engine, to slot into an as yet un-named, super-sporting model aimed at the BMW M5."

20 Feb 2004 | One of several Steves said...

Interesting that Audi is going to go right at the M5 like that (preliminay specs for that one are a 5-liter V10 with 500 hp and something like 380 lb-ft of torque - all in a normally aspirated engine, whereas Audi apparently is having to go turbo to get that sort of power). Figures like that are amazing considering how 10 years ago 250 hp was a pretty far up there.

The Germans are engaged in a lot of interesting chasing each others' tails the last few years. Which is a good thing for car buyers.

EK, the only point is that in your shifted terms of debate, the fact that there are a lot of American cars on the road means nothing. The idea that American cars must somehow be good or successful because there are a lot of them is belied by the fact that there are huge amounts less in terms of market share than there used to be.

On the Mac/Windows issue: I used to laugh at the Mac adherents going on and on about the superiority of their OS when System 9 crashed more often on me than XP. It's a relgious debate, with a lot of fanatics (especially on the Mac) side, with both fighting battles that are ancient history (it's been 10 years now since Windows was *that* far behind Mac, and Mac has been compatible for a software base for apps that 80 percent of people use 80 percent of the time for quite a while now). Of course, few religious adherents let facts get in the way of holding on to their set notions.

20 Feb 2004 | ek said...

As someone who uses both an XP box and a Mac everyday (and who exclusively ran NT/XP for years) I'm no Mac zealot.

But if, after using both Mac OS X in its current incarnation and Windows XP in its current incarnation, you can't see the superiority of OS X, I guess I'm not surprised that both of you like the new BMW 5-series.

I think Fallon (BMW's US agency) should go with a new tagline: "the new 5 — for people who think Windows is cool."

It's not about one OS doing something the other specifically cannot do. I mean, a Kia is as capable of getting you from point-A to point-B as a Bentley. It's about how it gets you there.

And Steve, I still don't get your "point." When did I say American cars are good? It's you, and now Chris with his XP post, making the argument that scale somehow has something to do with quality.

And, finally, on the German manufacturers chasing each others' tails on the power front, I wish they'd start chasing the Japanese manufacturers' tails on reliability instead. "German" and "reliability" have not been usable together in the same sentence in a long while, that is unless the sentence also included the word "sucks."

21 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

Give me concrete examples of how Mac OS X is superior "out of the box" (as in bought off the shelf as is) to XP? You say you're not a zealot - but your language reeks of it.

Is OS X "prettier" - mmm - arguable. I can download a skin to make XP look like OS X. Don't claim an OS is better because to some it is more asthetically pleasing. Praise an OS's reliability, scalability, usability, and compatibility. If you claim it is indeed superior - prove it. I can do everything I need to do both at home and at work on an XP machine.

I spoke nothing of XP's surperiority in sales. I agree, majority just not justify or prove superiority. The only way OS X would be 'superior' is if it could perform tasks that XP could not do.

As for German autos and reliability - if you had read an earlier post by me - I had an '84 Merc 300D that lasted for 312,000 miles with only the piston rings and suspension joint replaced out of wear. No other major malfunctions occured. Turn the key, wait for the glowplugs, and fire. Thousands of times over. No problems.

21 Feb 2004 | Gabriel Bridger said...

Some how I knew that this would turn into a Windows vs. Mac debate ;)

Anyway EK you're right the original 7 series was iDrive was based on Windows CE. However the new version in the Rolls Royce, 5 series and 6 series is based on Unix.

As an avid proponent of Apple products and their design philosophy I've always found lots of common ground when comparing them to MINI and BMW. Both command under 5% of the overall market yet receive way more press and accolades than that would have you believe. They both use highend engineering to create a brand that stands apart from other manufacturers of commodities like Dell or GM. And they are both staunchly independent companies.

Interestingly I spoke recently with a BMWNA exec who told me that many of them are well aware of the comparisons made between the two companies and appreciate the sentiment. He went on to say that many of the execs (including BMWNA president Tom Purvis) use Apple Powerbook laptops exclusively.

21 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

So I guess I'll be shunned if I transport my new HP laptop (which looks every damn bit as good as ANY Apple) in a Mini Cooper?

So what if they use Apple Powerbook laptops exclusively - so does my fiance's grandmother. Apple sticks bits and pieces of Unix code under the hood and suddenly it is superior?

I guess Mac users have to stand their ground given that they spent twice what any XP user would have to spend on their hardware.

Why won't Apple allow competitors to build hardware for OS X so that the pricing will come down? Then they would really have a handle on the market. Otherwise - speaking overall - it is still merely a niche market.

I want someone to prove to me that OS X is superior. I have not heard one bit of information to prove it. So what if CEO of this that an the other uses one. What does it prove?

We have a mix of Unix, Lunix, and Windows servers where I work. Each has their merits. None of them are 'superior' to antoher.

21 Feb 2004 | hp said...

ek,

What do you make of those of us who use exclusively OS X and like the new BMW design?

22 Feb 2004 | Chris K. said...

So I humored you Mac zealots and visited the new Apple store in town. The salespeople proceeded to give me their spiel on how Mac has zero viruses vs. Windows' plethora of viruses. I reminded them that Mac is still a niche and if one were a hacker would they bother with the little kid on the block or beat on the bully.

Anyhow - I was impressed by all their flash (talk about Flash intro) but their sales pitch screams of style over substance. They too could not prove to me what OS X could do vs. XP.

One of their pitches was reliability. They pushed the fact that Apple makes the hardware and software. Well, I reminded him that Microsft took on the task of building an OS for a multitude of hardware. What if Microsoft made their own hardware (as in whole computers, not their fantastic peripherals)? Would it be more reliable than it already is? Undoubtedly. Would they 'advance' more - absolutely - instead of worring about every little driver that comes out for every little peripheral device. In this respect I think Microsoft has done a wonderful job.

I just wish Mac zealots would stop harping ad nauseum about how much better their OS is and accept that their bad experience with Windows 98 was bad, but things have changed since then for Windows.

Still not convinced.

23 Feb 2004 | One of several Steves said...

But if, after using both Mac OS X in its current incarnation and Windows XP in its current incarnation, you can't see the superiority of OS X, I guess I'm not surprised that both of you like the new BMW 5-series.

One, and I know this is a hard concept for you to grasp: The BMW is a car, the Mac is a computer, and the two have nothing in common with each other.

Two, please find where I said anything about OS X, period. I pointed out how I laughed at the Mac zealots during System 9, which was every bit as buggy and crash-prone as any Windows system (I still experience it all the time, since one of the Macs here at the office is still OS9). I deliberately didn't say anything about OS X. In large part because I think that it is a fabulous operating system. As Unix always has been.

And Steve, I still don't get your "point." When did I say American cars are good? It's you, and now Chris with his XP post, making the argument that scale somehow has something to do with quality.

I'll try it one more time:

You started off saying, "And the point of car design is not to polarize public opinion, it's to sell cars."

I pointed out that the 7 Series is selling *better* than the old 7 Series, and that anecdotally, it appears that they're having no difficulty selling the new 5 Series out here in Southern California.

You countered with: "All the American manufacturers are pretty good at moving metal too (boy, do I see a lot of American made pick-ups, SUVs, and minivans on the road, not to mention Ford Tauruses and the like), does that mean their cars are great?"

You're the one who brought up sales, you're the one who used "great" in connection with American cars.

My point simply was that using your own terms of debate (which are constantly shifting, by the way), you can't even judge American cars as a success because their sales have been plummeting for decades when based on market share (gross sales are up because the market's bigger). And since you first brought up sales as some sort of mark of success, the 7 Series is doing quite nicely.

24 Feb 2004 | James Daniel said...

I just wanted to chime in on the upcoming Audi a6 and the new look of Audi in general. Way to go Audi!!!!
I love that great big grill!!!
Plus all of the electronic gizmos!!! and of course Quattro!!!!!
when you look in a rear view mirror there will be no doubt at
what is hot on your tail!!!!

26 Feb 2004 | Mike said...

Don Schenck Your Spider is Gross, quite possibly one of the ugliest cars ever mad, and it gets shitty reviews, don't even come close to looking as pretty as any Audi, get a life.

26 Feb 2004 | Don Schenck said...

Mike ... it's S-P-Y-D-E-R. And while it's not Boxster, it's zippy, sticks to the road like a 6-year old's hand on flypaper, and still gets over 32 mpg.

Unlike, say, your minivan.

:-)

01 Mar 2004 | BillyP said...

I am fine with the new styling (although I don't love it). My dissappointment is with the lack of progress to directly compete with BMW. Here are my issues:
- No aluminum (and therefore no reduction in weight toward the 5 series nor a shift in the weight distribution more towards 50/50)
- No mention of the DSG transmission (they aren't going to have it only the TT are they?)
- Pedestrian looking wheels
- No turbo options
Maybe its just because of the shift in the exchange rate that these goodies hurt profits.

01 Mar 2004 | Mr Laine said...

In my opinion the new Audi A6 looks slightly too nose heavy, (the front grille is way too pronounced, but could be fixed by minor adjustment), otherwise it looks ok.
From inside it looks that the boys at Audi have used all their money to fail at the design of the front grille and have nothing left for the interior of the car. Hideous and cheap-looking design especially around the LCD screen (even their old A6 looks more up-to-date than this). Cockpit panel looks like it was partly stolen from some American car (60s to 80s).
What did those guys do with all that money that was supposed to be used to DESIGN?
Why make this marvellous car look so ugly? Kissing wont make this frog turn to a prince.

03 Mar 2004 | Eamon said...

I like my Prius.

05 Mar 2004 | TC said...

Does anyone think it looks like a Volvo?

17 Mar 2004 | David said...

I think it looks brilliant i think audi has gone for the right new look. (take a look at some of the ugly bmw's now there something ugly to talk about.

17 Mar 2004 | David said...

P.S. looks a bit like a rover 75 at the side

30 Jan 2005 | compatelius said...

bocigalingus must be something funny.