14 Jun 2004 | Birdman said...

$75/hr if it's an "opportunity"

14 Jun 2004 | Bob H. said...

The rates for looking over the shoulder are way too low!

14 Jun 2004 | wayne said...

$350/hr if final approval is by a commitee.

14 Jun 2004 | wayne said...

Oops... committee.

14 Jun 2004 | Bob H. said...

final approval is by a commitee.

Now there's a lifetime job!

14 Jun 2004 | pb said...

Designers *must* finally acknowledge that their clients want to have some involvement in their site.

14 Jun 2004 | Alex Taylor said...

"Designers *must* finally acknowledge that their clients want to have some involvement in their site."

I'm fine with that, to a point. But we need time to think, to work it out ourselves before we show the client! Over-the-shoulder work is like peeing in front of a live audience.

14 Jun 2004 | beto said...

Double those rates if you're dealing with anyone remotely close to the Government.

14 Jun 2004 | Darrel said...

I kind of agree with PB...if they WANT to help? Shouldn't they be helping from day one? And I hope they've done some work prior to coming to me.

14 Jun 2004 | but that's just me said...

I would make it at least $500/hr if a commitee is involved in the process in any way. Ugh...commitees.

14 Jun 2004 | Urbanchords said...

You should try school design....a government committee.

14 Jun 2004 | said...

I kind of agree with PB...if they WANT to help? Shouldn't they be helping from day one? And I hope they've done some work prior to coming to me.

No one is saying they can't be involved.

14 Jun 2004 | Darrel said...

...but yea, I get the joke. ;o)

14 Jun 2004 | Darrel said...

No one is saying they can't be involved.

...just that it'd cost them more if they are. ;o)

I get the joke...it's funny for those of us on this side of the fence. But it doesn't quite hold up under closer scrutiny. ;o)

15 Jun 2004 | Allen said...

There are clients who I start on a standard rate, only to find they want it right now, decides to watch over my shoulder while I work, then insists that they should help. Finally they tell me that they've workd on it first. (usually in reverse order for me)

15 Jun 2004 | Mike Gale said...

Then there are:

1) While we were talking I saw how disorganised you are = time taken for a clean job X 3 and price-per-hour factor = 1.25 X (previous price)

2) The committee takes 2 weeks to answer even the simplest question, so I gotta start my brain again (time X 3)... (Especially hard when there's a lot of program code in there!!!)

People. Don't you love them.

Give the customer interactive tools to define some parts of the job. Shield them from parts they don't understand BUT make damn sure they know that this stuff is going on. A hard balance.

15 Jun 2004 | Stuart said...

That is just SOOOO true!!

Clients: can't live with 'em.... etc.

15 Jun 2004 | Darrel said...

So...is this thread about bad clients or bad project management?

;o) ;o)

15 Jun 2004 | jarv75 said...

Double the rate if the client "has an Msc in ebusiness" and just "doesn't have time to do it themselves".

15 Jun 2004 | wayne said...

Committee: The biggest issue with committee approvals is that the two week delay with response doesnt always move the launch date relatively.

Over The Sholder: I have found that a very involving brainstorming session at the outset almost completely relieves this.

15 Jun 2004 | Camilo said...

And you have to double your fees if your clients have wonderful concrete requirements such as make it more emotional or I want it to be like the sound of rain falling. Uh?

15 Jun 2004 | Scott M. said...

Love it!

15 Jun 2004 | Caleb Jaffa said...

I recall having a big deadline for a demo of web based training. Our partner that had gotten the initial demo contract came to "help" me put the pieces together. I ended up spending the day telling him things like that to copy and paste I had not used the menu, nor the "right-clicky" menu, but had used these magical keyboard sequences to perform these tasks. Needless to say I endured him till he left at 5:00 around when I needed to call it a day, after which in no time at all I got more done than I had all day.

15 Jun 2004 | Silus Grok said...

I have a similar method... I call it the PITA factor (Pain in the *ss), where I factor the difficulty of working with the client into the bid. The scale runs 0-10, where each point corresponds to a 10% increase in the bid (from 0 - 100% mark-up).

15 Jun 2004 | Darrel said...

While I've experienced all of this, I found that the simple fix is to have some good project management skills. Make sure there's a schedule. Make sure theres a task list for all parties. Make sure there is an approval method. Make sure you only work with one point of contact. Make sure any scope creep is contained immediately and put on a 'future bid'. Make sure any time delays are billed accordingly and that extreme delays result in termination of current project and implementation of new project (with appropriate fees attached).

15 Jun 2004 | Eric Martin said...

You forgot the most important one:
$800/hr if you don't find my business card funny

15 Jun 2004 | One of several Steves said...

While I've experienced all of this, I found that the simple fix is to have some good project management skills.

Generally a good rule (and good suggestions that follow), but the best preparation in the world can't always overcome clients who refuse to follow the schedule, the task list, the approval processes, can't keep a single point of contact to save thier lives, and cannot comprehend how their changed requirements have any affect on scope. There are some clients who are literally incapable of following process. And so you need to find ways of getting things done in spite of that.

No, I don't speak from painful experience or anything...

15 Jun 2004 | but that's just me said...

PITA...hehe...I thought I was the only one who said that.

16 Jun 2004 | mark said...

1000 standard fee for "making the logo bigger" once youve completed the web site

ARGH!

mark

17 Jun 2004 | Akusi Kansui said...

"There are some clients who are literally incapable of following process. And so you need to find ways of getting things done in spite of that."

That's where some "pre-qualifying" of the client comes into play.

NOTE: Ideally, you'll want to "screen" your prospects to make sure they're a good fit for your company and/or personality if you'll be their POC/designer/director/etc before you do your REAL more in-depth interview, where you find out more about their company, vision, goals, blah blah blah yakkity smakkity, and develop the list of content items you'll need (w/ the customer in front of you or on the conf. call) before u get started on the project, during the site construction, and/or after the launch in some cases. If you're doing SE submissions for example, sit down and develop some keywords with them at this time. Also, if they have some sort of vision of their site, sketch a rough or two in front of em. Make em feel like they're a part of the project from the jump, and you won't have to deal with "shoulder surfing", or what I like to call "BABYSITTING". By doing little stuff like this, although a little tedious, in their mind they'll feel that whatever price you quote after this point (since you haven't done the proposal yet at this stage, since you're gathering all the data now) would be worth it.

If the client dealt with those el cheapo designers (i.e. e-lance hoes) in the past, more than likely they'll start to see that you are a REAL professional. Why? Because those other guys never took the time to get to know the client and his or her business/organization. Those OTHER guys, I bet, just said "well, give me your current brochure, flyer, and business card, and I'll have it done by the end of the week!" Or just ask a bunch of questions that don't give you a solid creative direction that SHOULD be congruent with the site's TRUE goal. But that's a whole nother thread.

Pretend you're the hiring manager for the HR department of some big company, and you're doing the "screening" interview. At some point, you may want to tell them what the customer should expect from your company (timely service, etc), and what your company EXPECTS OUT OF THEM:

--e.g. "For example Mr. suchandsuch, at a predetermined phase in the project, we may request that you send us certain elements of your site such as text copy, images, or critical feedback before we can move forward. If we don't get your feedback in a timely fashion, then that could cause a delay in meeting your deadline.

Which, ultimately, could result in additional fees from us, as well as delaying any benefits your company would enjoy by having this site launched on time.

Knowing this, do you think you would you have a problem with meeting our scheduled deadlines Mr Suchandsuch?"

Or something similar to the above scenario. Get them to agree with how YOU do business both verbally and in writing; have them initial next to this statement on your proposal/contract (make sure u point this out to them and explain it again).

If they start to balk at this point, maybe you should consider walking them? You'll have to decide if you really want to deal with this type of person because you have that JETTA payment due this month, or if you have the strength of character to tell them you don't think the project they're presenting would be a good fit for your company or whatever (make up something good. Just don't tell em the "truth" -- they suck and will give u a massive headache for very little dollars).

Just some pearls for ya'll. Had to fight like hell to get em.

-Akusi Kansui

17 Jun 2004 | One of several Steves said...

That's where some "pre-qualifying" of the client comes into play.

In a perfect world, sure. And maybe that does work for smaller companies. But, with even medium-sized organizations, the people who have to get the work done (like me) aren't terribly involved in deciding who we try to sell our services to, and certainly not in the decisions of who we do business with. So, my job as a manager is to make the best of the situation and get the work done while still making sure we make money.

And there are simply things you can't foresee until you're immersed in their culture. It's tough to tell until you start workign with someone that they are incredibly disorganized and dysfunctional.

Which is where finding different ways to get things done comes into play. You can have the best process in the world, but it will only work as long as people follow it. When they refuse, you have to start getting creative in finding ways to get them to follow it even if they don't want to, at least enough so you can get your work done.

17 Jun 2004 | Akusi Kansui said...

In a perfect world, sure. And maybe that does work for smaller companies......So, my job as a manager is to make the best of the situation and get the work done....

Understandable.

My commentary was focused on the one to two man design shops, where the designer frequently is the owner, project manager, etc.

28 Jun 2004 | Factory Joe said...

If you work for the government, you get paid: $1600/wk. ($40/hr)

If you're hired by Halliburton as a subcontractor to do the exact same job, you get: $8000/wk. ($200/hr)

Hmmm. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't government employees ultimately answerable to the public? Looks like war-profiteering is a good business model after all.

01 Jul 2004 | jeremiah said...

I have three companies I am doing design work for, and they are all organizations controlled by a committee that has to approve the work and it has been painful and exhausting.