20 Jul 2004 | Brad Hurley said...

Leaving a dress shirt untucked just looks too self-consciously hip to me. People who try to look cool rarely do. The men in the photos in that NY Times article just look lame.

Some designers make dress shirts with straight bottom hems, which look great either tucked in or left out. Patagonia's All Wear shirt is a good example. I just bought one of these myself and can vouch that it looks perfectly respectable (while retaining that desirable touch of unconventionality) when it's left untucked.

20 Jul 2004 | Jeff said...

> Leaving a dress shirt untucked just looks too
> self-consciously hip to me.

Same here. I've never understood where the whole "sloppy = hip" thing came from. Not that I'm terribly refined in this regard - I'm usually rather unkempt and unshaven, myself - but I don't consider myself the slightest bit fashionable either.

I'm usually just tired.

Why someone would actively try to go for that "look" is beyond me.

20 Jul 2004 | but that's just me said...

I think it depends on the guy. Most guys are not going to be able to pull off the untucked dress shirt look without looking like a complete slob. You have to have the whole look going. You can't just untuck your shirt and expect to be Mr. GQ. Oh, and it helps if the shirt is ironed, which seems to be a roadblock for a lot of guys. ;-)

20 Jul 2004 | One of several Steves said...

Some shirts I wear out, even though they're fomrally not for that. Some shirts I wear in. Some get both treatments, depending on the pants I'm wearing and the mood I'm in that day.

I would say that a shirt untucked from a suit, or even just pants and jacket, is as close to inherently wrong as anything can get. With more casual pants, or jeans, it all depends on the guy and the setting.

20 Jul 2004 | JF said...

I'm so not a fan of the tuck. Time and a place (w/ a suit), for sure, but otherwise, be comfortable and untucked.

20 Jul 2004 | Dan Benjamin said...

Un-tucked shirts are absurd.

If you need any help in selecting the appropriate shirt, please review this document.

20 Jul 2004 | Azul said...

Eh, depends on my mood, the cut of the shirt, and if I don't mind getting mistaken for 10 years younger than I really am (27).

When it's important to have my cell phone and/or Leatherman on my belt, though, the shirt always gets tucked in.

20 Jul 2004 | Clark MacLeod said...

Depends on where you live too.

I seldom have to wear business attire but had always tucked in all my shirts. After visiting Singapore where no one seems to tuck in their shirt (except those wear business attire) I have stopped. When you live in the tropics it's just far more comfortable.

21 Jul 2004 | Mark said...

Once something becomes fashionably hip, it really can't be considered a "pennant of rebellion" anymore, can it?

For me, I always tuck in dress shirts. Other long sleeve shirts (like denim, or lightweight cotton) or golf / polo shirts I'll usually leave untucked if wearing on the weekend.

21 Jul 2004 | Horton said...

This is an interesting shift in terms of fashion: business-class styles moving from Southwest to Northeast in the US. I think a lot of the push-back I hear from some of you has come and gone on the West Coast. WCers don't wear suits, we always like jeans, and the only fashion requirement to get ahead in most businesses is to look neat. Most of the hot shirt companies are tailoring their gear so they don't hang long, don't have severe tails, and don't wrinkle. I have noticed a move toward man-made fabrics again in high-end shirts. Most guys are avoiding sloppiness with the look, and it's the laggards who try it with the wrong kind of shirt (read:Dockers).

Men will wear whatever gets them compliments from women, and this is a Hollywood style that most guys can work.

Dan, your rules for a good shirt read straight out of "How to Not Screw Up." Trends come and go, this is one of them. You play safe, others play the game.

21 Jul 2004 | David S said...

One more vote for untucked. I don't feel very comfortable when I'm wearing a shirt tucked in mostly because my range of motion feels a bit constrained.

Of course, I'm always wearing jeans + dress shirt.

21 Jul 2004 | Don Schenck said...

I prefer to wear a suit, yes, tucked-in shirt. Nice necktie.

An aside: I do not wear jeans outside of my property.

I had a friend who always, I mean always wore a three-piece suit. Well, two-piece, because he never wore the jacket. He was in a wheelchair. *sigh* Michael Hauenstein, the finest person I've ever know, Rest In Peace (ALS, 1998).

21 Jul 2004 | Don Schenck said...

Michael Hauenstein, in case anyone cares.

21 Jul 2004 | p8 said...

Without a jacket I think it's ok untuck a suit. With a jacket it looks too sloppy to me. Especially with the rounded shirt that that guy on the second photo is wearing.

I think t-shirts shouldn't be tucked in just like you don't tuck in a sweater or jacket.

21 Jul 2004 | Nick said...

Especially when worn with shirts embroidered down the front, I can't help but think of the formal outfits in the Philippines, the Barong Tagalog. Per Brad, it's a straight bottom hem, always untucked, although never, ever wrinkled. Ultra comfortable, especially when its tropically hot and humid.

21 Jul 2004 | waynep said...

> Leaving a dress shirt untucked just looks too
> self-consciously hip to me.

Funny, I have similar feelings about suits, self-importance. They scream "trying to sell you something, anything!"

I wear highly pressed khakis and dress shirts (un-tucked) to work. Worn with really nice shoes, few have ever complained. A tucked shirt with a necktie is for weddings and funerals.

21 Jul 2004 | Brian said...

I often wear an untucked dress shirt with jeans; it's the most comfortable ensemble in my closet. But I would never go untucked in a suit, wool pants or chinos, which is part of the reason I try to avoid them. The problem for me is, at 5?10?/140 lbs., most shirts are simply too big around, leaving too much fabric to bunch up at the waist. If my fellow Americans continue to get fatter, I'm going to have to start having my shirts custom-made, which is really cost prohibitive.

21 Jul 2004 | shawn said...

who cares? do we lead such shallow lives that this is some major social concern? how i dress doesn't impact who i am nor what i do. i think people have too much extra time on their hands.

if someone can't look past my choice of dress...i'll get to know someone else.

21 Jul 2004 | but that's just me said...

You know, sometimes it's nice to break away from topics of "major social concern" and just ponder the small stuff. Otherwise you end up with ulcers.

By the way, from a woman's point of view, a dress shirt untucked with jeans...very nice. But no tie. That's just silly.

21 Jul 2004 | pb said...

Why is the untucked shirt absurd?

21 Jul 2004 | Brian Andersen said...

Untucked with anything else than a suit - simple as that.

Good-looking jeans and a nice untucked shirt is probably one of my favorite things to wear - for work too. Casual, yet serious.

And shawn: when we're talking about shirts we can get away with not talking about terrorism. The less important things we talk about, the more evolved a society we are :D

21 Jul 2004 | Al Abut said...

I'm curious about the designers take: do you dress up or down for client meetings, interviews, etc? As lame as it sounds, sometimes I worry about dressing up too much and coming across as a formal corporate dronebot. Heh, then we wonder why creatives start ranting about being taken seriously... :)

21 Jul 2004 | bdl said...

And what about those freaks who tuck in t-shirts?

21 Jul 2004 | Brad Hurley said...

You know how you occasionally get served at a restaurant by a waiter who wants to be sure you understand that in real life he's a poet or an actor, or one that drops a few witty, intellectual remarks to be sure you know that he's not just some dumb hunk? I feel like these guys with their shirttails out are trying to do the same thing. They're saying, "hey, I'm not really a corporate drone, I'm a nonconformist."

I have little respect for that kind of behavior. I've always been more impressed by men and women who can slip fully into their various uniforms and identities without feeling the need to broadcast a disclaimer that "this isn't really me." These people are secure in themselves. They can let their individuality come through in their personality; they don't feel compelled to advertise it in their appearance. And in the end, that makes them much more cool and hip than someone who's trying to make a point by leaving his shirttails out.

21 Jul 2004 | Chason said...

Some of us just think it looks better out and aren't trying to make a statement?

21 Jul 2004 | Don Schenck said...

But Brad ... what about guys like me? I not only dress well, but I constantly have to drop witty comments so I'm not mistaken for just "some hunk".

It's a curse, I tell ya.

*COUGH*

21 Jul 2004 | Arne Gleason said...

I have some summer shirts that are clearly designed to be left un-tucked, and if its Friday and hot outside, I do (definitely qualified by shirt, time, place and occasion).

22 Jul 2004 | SH said...

"The less important things we talk about, the more evolved a society we are..."

Here, here!

22 Jul 2004 | Don Schenck said...

Sarah, you know I love you ... but I believe it's "Hear, hear", as in "Hey everybody, hear this!".

I could be wrong, but knowing me ... probably not.

:-)

22 Jul 2004 | Arne Gleason said...

"The less important things we talk about, the more evolved a society we are..."

Sounds a bit worryingly like something the Captain would say to Montag in F451, but as everything I say it utterly unimportant Ill add my Here, here! here.

22 Jul 2004 | Arne Gleason said...

I believe youre right Don, but now my Here, here here falls down oh well, Ill run away and live to err another day (probably less than a minute from now actually).

22 Jul 2004 | SH said...

No Don, you're right, I realized that after I posted. It was late! I'll never again comment after midnight.

22 Jul 2004 | Don Schenck said...

Still love me?

22 Jul 2004 | SH said...

Oh of course, Don. It takes a real man to put me in my place. ;)

23 Jul 2004 | shawn said...

i never once said we should endulge ourselves in talks of abortion or terrorism. it has NOTHING to do with the level of seriousness of a topic. but the idea of a shirt being untucked being a big deal is not only absurd, but plain silly.

like i said, why does this matter? whether someone tucks in a shirt or not doesn't change who he/she is. it's not like a jeckle and hyde syndrome. when they wear a suit they are very nice, well educated and mature...oh, but leave that shirt untucked and wear some jeans...and the person's dirt or a bum?

that is the basic ethos behind this whole story and conversation. the simple fact that some people can't look past how a person dresses is idiotic.

i'm not saying neglect your personal hygene. but, if anyone met me on a normal day, they would see me in jeans and a t-shirt. and, i'll probably have a bit of scruff on my face. but, what they don't know is that i'm upper management in our company.

why should i show up to work everyday in a suit? will it make my job easier? will i be more successful? no, of course not.

side note:

why is it that anytime someone makes a remark about something shallow being less than pertinent to society...kids always assume they want to talk about "high moral" issues-like terrorism or politics? not everyone is an activist, folks.

23 Jul 2004 | Arne Gleason said...

Shawn,

Your commentary on the functional importance of appearances has me thinking. Thank you. And to think it was spawned from such a shallow question (What the Tuck?).

I vaguely recall a story someone once told me told me. I'll do my best to recount it here:

An old philosopher is seated at the back of a forum waiting for what he anticipates will be an entertaining debate.

A group of youth from one school enters the forum to take their seats. The old philosopher, on seeing their elaborate grooming and expensive attire, grumbles a disapproving affectation (loud enough to share his condemnation with the audience).

Almost immediately after, the youth of another school enter the forum. They are scruffy, un-bathed and dressed in rags. On seeing this, old philosopher grumbles Even greater affectation.

27 Jul 2004 | Andrew said...

So that's one tuck, and one no-tuck.

31 Jul 2004 | Kathleen said...

It's after midnight so I shall try to be very careful. :-) @ SH.

While reading this, particularly shawn and Arne Gleason, I am reminded of Ayn Rand's description of the appearance of author Lois Cook in the book 'The Fountainhead'. I think the character's last name is Cook, if you know the book you'll know who I mean. ;-) sorry, it is after midnight.

02 Aug 2004 | lover said...

37WhatNotToWhere.com

14 Aug 2004 | james said...

I wear em out at work in a retail store. Not long tails but a medium length shirttail - I like the freedom of movement and the way it feels, and make sure my clothes are well pressed and neat,pants are either jeans or nice khakis. Its so prevalent with guys now, at my daughters wedding there were quite a few guys there with them out, from teens to mid forties- But none in a suit jacket with em out. I can't see myself in a suit with untucked tails. However some can pull it off.