10 Feb 2005 | Ryan Sims said...

Right on, Jason. There's seems to be a lot of discussion about this going on right now. I couldn't agree more with your insight.

10 Feb 2005 | Dan H said...

Yes. In my experience, managers above me have taken on clients and continued work with clients we really shouldn't have been working with. "Working with" being a key thing of a business-client relationship.

And No. I think managers get scared... is that ever a good excuse? No, but it's that whole "Never turn down a gig" motto for musicians or actors... If you turn someone down, maybe other people wont come to you anymore.

Some companies have the ability to turn down some customers, others might not believe they can afford it. I agree with you totally JF, but not every tech firm is as elite as yours. But every company can learn from the "working with" and "hire" the client lingo... it kinda goes with what you said here about being open and honest with clients.

When you've got clients you trust and who trust you, openness and honesty can't help you say things like "Hey, this particular project isn't up our alley." ...I get sick of promises being made to clients to keep them on our company choo choo by offering "complete solutions" for "all your I.T. needs". We really just end up doing work we don't like, at mediocre (or worse) quality for the client, and never really build a good relationship with them.

But, I'm gladly not a manager. So, I'll just do what I can for now. Sigh.

10 Feb 2005 | JF said...

When you've got clients you trust and who trust you, openness and honesty can't help you say things like "Hey, this particular project isn't up our alley."

Another myth -- you "get" clients as if they are assigned to you. Nope. You pick them like they pick you. If the right ones aren't coming to you, then go to them. Be proactive. Find the right matches. There are a zillion clients out there. Surely you can find a few that you like and that like you. It's only hard when you think it can't be done or it only applies to "elite" companies.

Easy? Not always. Possible? ALWAYS.

10 Feb 2005 | Jim Coudal said...

The surest way to be overworked and to love it is to not "hire" clients at all, but to build them. At CP, we love doing great work for open-minded and generous clients and we've been lucky enough to have had a string of loyal ones who are also friends. But at the very heart of any work-for-hire relationship is an inequality.

In our view, there is only one way to control your own destiny and unlock the value of your creativity and your experience. And that is to have an ownership stake in the product you're applying them to.

10 Feb 2005 | Dan said...

...Im almost always asked this question: How do you deal with bad clients? How do you make them get it? My answer is always We dont work with bad clients.

...[G]ive as much thought to the clients you work with as the people you hire and the spending decisions you make. Youll be better off in the long run because of it.

Let me ask you this, Jason... have you ever had an experience where everything adds up in the beginning, but then somewhere along the line, suddenly and drastically everything changes? Which is I guess to say, have you ever followed your own advice and been wrong?

10 Feb 2005 | Dan said...

Oops, that second paragraph was supposed to be italicized too. =)

10 Feb 2005 | JF said...

Let me ask you this, Jason... have you ever had an experience where everything adds up in the beginning, but then somewhere along the line, suddenly and drastically everything changes? Which is I guess to say, have you ever followed your own advice and been wrong?

Of course, but you have to stack the odds in your favor up front. You have to do everything you can to put yourself in a winning position.

10 Feb 2005 | Jeff Croft said...

Jason-

I totally agree with your concepts, but how do you offset this with a need to make money, for smaller freelancers or firms that aren't having their doors beat down by clients? In other words, if the end of the month is nearing and I can't pay my bills, do I still turn down a client because I have a sneaking suspicion he's the 'wrong" kind of client?

10 Feb 2005 | JF said...

What I'm suggesting is Plan A. If you put everything you've got into Plan A and Plan A doesn't work then you go to Plan B which is taking whatever you can get. However, I don't think people put enough of their energy behind Plan A to even give them a chance.

10 Feb 2005 | Jeff Croft said...

Makes sense -- you're probably right.

10 Feb 2005 | A. Casalena said...

Could you give an example of this, perhaps?

Replacing whoever the client was with an X of course. I'm just especially interested in how you decline such a client. Have you ever had one insist that they wanted to hire you anyway? Ever had any downside to doing this pro-actively?

10 Feb 2005 | JF said...

An example of what? Saying no?

You just say "Thanks for considering us, but I don't think we're the right group for you at this time. If you'd like I'd be happy to recommend some other design shops we respect that may be able to help you."

And be done with it. If they ask why, I'll respond with specific reasons.

Whenever I get an RFP that is over 10 pages (sometimes over 5) I send this right away. A really long, specific RFP if often a red flag -- it signals that there's already been too many decisions made. Too many sign-offs. Too many political battles invested to be open to change. I could be wrong, but that's what experience has taught me.

10 Feb 2005 | Dan H said...

JF: Sorry, was supposed to be "can" not "can't". Big difference. Oops.

You do explain the whole "get" thing well... definitely it comes down to how easy and expensive it is. I guess managers in my shop aren't willing to do that. It's the whole scared thing.

P.S. Hi other Dan, I'm Dan H. What's your last initial? :)

10 Feb 2005 | JF said...

You do explain the whole "get" thing well... definitely it comes down to how easy and expensive it is. I guess managers in my shop aren't willing to do that. It's the whole scared thing.

I'm more afraid of having the wrong job than no job. When you have the wrong job, you 1. don't want to go to work. 2. you don't have time to find the right job. 3. you can't even take on the right job if you find it because you are busy with the wrong job. There's a significant opportunity cost in taking the wrong job.

Yes, sometimes you have to bend, but strive for this.

11 Feb 2005 | Elizabeth Z. said...

Jason writes:

When I speak at design conferences Im almost always asked this question: How do you deal with bad clients? How do you make them get it? My answer is always We dont work with bad clients. ... And I dont use that to squirm out of an answer. I mean it.

Dan asks:

Let me ask you this, Jason... have you ever had an experience where everything adds up in the beginning, but then somewhere along the line, suddenly and drastically everything changes? Which is I guess to say, have you ever followed your own advice and been wrong?

To which Jason responds:

Of course, but you have to stack the odds in your favor up front. You have to do everything you can to put yourself in a winning position.

Which sounds like Jason is saying "we don't work with bad clients; OK but we do".

So why present an idealized version of the truth rather than simply saying, "we try very hard to be selective with our clients; most of the time we're successful, but not always." Is it speaking to a crowd? Being treated like a guru? Feeling you have to something profound or contrarian?

And of course there's the question still on the table: when you try to be selective with your cients, but things change for the worse, how do you then deal with the clients?

11 Feb 2005 | hartmurmur said...

How do I get on the list of "other design shops" for the clients you turn down? :)

11 Feb 2005 | Douglas said...

> So why present an idealized version of the truth?

Aim high - you might not get there but you'll probably get higher than if you aim low in the first place.

And JF doesn't need to talk about the negative side - there are plenty of people to do that for him ;)

Douglas

11 Feb 2005 | JF said...

So why present an idealized version of the truth rather than simply saying, "we try very hard to be selective with our clients; most of the time we're successful, but not always." Is it speaking to a crowd? Being treated like a guru? Feeling you have to something profound or contrarian?

I was speaking for myself. We don't work with bad clients. That much is true. Then someone asked about what happens if you absolutely need to work with a bad client or else you can't eat and I said, well if you have to go to Plan B then you go to Plan B. I don't want people to starve to death!

So, shoot for Plan A above all else, but if you are going to DIE then, yeah, Plan B.

11 Feb 2005 | Eric said...

well, you can see a sample of a $2,500 visual spec right here.

There is new functionality illustrated that would only come about after numerous database changes and updating probably every product-record (for bullets)

And, unfortunately, even the simple suggested changes like bumping up the font-size on the product title or relocating the "sizing help" link was too
much work for the client. sigh.

11 Feb 2005 | Larry Burningham said...

My company has been around for 5 years and we just saw the light about firing clients. We always operated that the more revenue the better things were. Wrong. Let me tell you why.

The more you take on and the more these bad clients eat away at your time, the more it forces mistakes. For example, our bad clients got pushed off to our under performing associates. This in turn created more problems and put false value in employees who were not pulling there weight.

My partner and I realized after crunching the numbers that we generated 65% of the revenue. So we showed the door to 3 employees. Problem solved. NO!

We then created a list of great clients, borderline and must go. We fired several immediately. Then we met with the borderline clients and instructed them our guidelines for work. Amazingly almost all the borderline clients got it. They appeciated our needs and made the necessary adjustments.

Since doing this, we have generated more revenue and landed more large accounts. We also have more time for choosing the right hires. Oh yeah, we go home at 5:00 now, instead of 7:00

Here is our simple rule. Patiently demand the respect you deserve.

11 Feb 2005 | Jason Santa Maria said...

I am starting to come to some of these same conclusions. There have been times where I was only a day away from Plan B when sticking to my guns paid off. One of the greatest things is being able to respect your clients as much as you want them to respect you.

11 Feb 2005 | Tom K said...

My company has been around for 5 years and we just saw the light about firing clients.

We're 3 years old and we know we need to do this; we just tend to panic and end up having some bad clients on the go most of the time so we can hit targets and pay salaries. Of course the knock on effect makes it harder to meet the targets for the next few months as you deal with the horror... and the vicious cycle continues.

I'm wondering how you fired your bad clients. What did you say to them? Did you just call up and say, "you're fired!"?

I like the RFP rule. What other warning signs do you look out for to give you a good heuristic of who's going to be a good client / bad client? I'm sure everyone here has had a few 'seem nice at first but actually turn out to be related to the devil' clients.

One key group we know to be cautious with: the innocent start ups who pin all their hopes on the website doing all the work for them. Typically they've spent 6 months dreaming up wildly complex functionality for their site, but only about 10 minutes thinking about how their business will actually work.

11 Feb 2005 | JF said...

I like the RFP rule. What other warning signs do you look out for to give you a good heuristic of who's going to be a good client / bad client? I'm sure everyone here has had a few 'seem nice at first but actually turn out to be related to the devil' clients.

Maybe I'll write up an entire post about this in the next few days, but another red flag for me is when someone requests that we send "10 copies of the proposal." To me that means POLITICS and too many cooks in the kitchen. Too many decision makers almost always leads to a bad project.

11 Feb 2005 | Larry Burningham said...

I'm wondering how you fired your bad clients. What did you say to them? Did you just call up and say, "you're fired!"?

I basically inform them that we don't feel that we can provide the appropriate level of service because of their method of operations. I politely tell them that they are too demanding, unrealitistic and underfunded. Then I merely point out that we don't feel that based on this we can provide the quality of work we pride ourselves on.

Then I wait. Sometimes the client will want to meet to hash out new ground rules. The last time I did this the client asked me " What are you saying?" My answer. " You are disorganized and quite frankly a pain in the ass to deal with because of this fact. We like you but you are costing us money."

The result. He pleaded to stay with us and we establish new protocol, which he followed for a couple of weeks and then reverted to his old ways. Then we gave him the boot. I called and said " Please find another provider and we will assist in the transition." His repsonse? " I understand."

Our other rule is this: If the client calls screaming and swearing, ask him to call back and speak to the managing partner(me). If he then calls me back screaming and swearing, I inform him that no one comes to work to deal with that attitude and then inform them that next time will be the last time.

Sounds harsh but give someone enough rope and even the best intentioned person can hang you.

Remember people, you are in business for yourselves not for your client.

11 Feb 2005 | Max C. said...

" You are disorganized and quite frankly a pain in the ass to deal with because of this fact. We like you but you are costing us money."

I don't remember you ever calling where I work. ;0

11 Feb 2005 | Chris from Scottsdale said...

I had to fire a client once and it wasn't easy. Like some of the other stories, basically this client was completely unorganized, came to meetings unprepared, and always changed the project scope at every meeting (and throughout single meetings!!).

So one day I just put together some CDs with all of the stuff we had going for him that he had paid for and sent him an email outlining exactly why. Then I drove over to his office and talked to him about it for about 30 minutes.

The client actually told me that he was going to take this to heart and become more organized and from what I've heard, he has. But I know how difficult it is to change old habbits.

Anyways, it was a very good thing because my life was so much more relaxed after that. So much stress had built up during the encounters with that client that I could barely concentrate on my other projects.

11 Feb 2005 | Don Schenck said...

Hear, hear, Jason.

I once acquired a bad client. I knew after our second meeting, when they asked me to reduce my rate by 10 percent. I knew then, but I kept reluctantly supporting them for another year.

I was so relieved when the day came where we parted ways. We remain good friends to this day, but they were a bad client.

I've learned. It can be done. Patience and sticking to your core values will win the day.

12 Feb 2005 | Derek said...

It's a sign of a maturing business when you realize that you have to be selective about who hires you. As I wrote a couple of years ago about editorial clients from hell:

The same people who think nothing of asking an editor to accept half of what we normally charge would never expect to walk into a new car dealership and offer half the sticker price of an automobile.

Well, maybe they would, but they wouldn't leave with a car.

12 Feb 2005 | Tom Dolan said...

I fired a prospective client before we had even gotten through the project agreement yesterday and it felt more than great. He was such a wheeler-dealer he was sure it was just a negotiating ploy for a larger fee on our part and it took 5 emails back and forth (with him begging in the last two, obviously he had made promises to superiors he was about to be in deep crap about) before he finally realized that I was just saying, "No, really. Go away." Reason, he was just a jerk, the project had a big dog and pony show component, and my spider-sense was going off like a fire alarm. I feel much much better this morning. Listen to yourself when you get that bottom of the stomach feeling.

12 Feb 2005 | JF said...

BTW: I wasn't really talking about "firing" a client, I was talking about turning down work that isn't the right fit BEFORE you take it on.

14 Feb 2005 | Larry Burningham said...

BTW: I wasn't really talking about "firing" a client, I was talking about turning down work that isn't the right fit BEFORE you take it on.

I hear you, I just went off because client engagements start off like dates. Everyone is courting each other and then when money changes hands things start becoming real. By that time there is a contractual/professional obligation. But I agree sniffing them out ahead of time is ideal.

14 Feb 2005 | duff said...

Great post and thread, especially for beginning freelance web designers like me.

I've already noticed that there are A, B, and C clients:

• A clients love everything you do and give you 100% creative license and referalls galore


• B clients have some back and forth and are somewhat picky but still ok to deal with


• C clients ask for discounts, 17 revisions, and when all is said and done hate you and your business

Unfortunately I'm still learning how to recognize which category a client will fall into when I first meet them.

A related principle for employees (from Brian Tracy):
"Choose your boss carefully."

Right now I'm looking for more steady design work with an existing firm. I took a look back at my employment history and asked myself why on some jobs I produced like mad and loved my job and on other jobs got fired or hated my job. I discovered that THE crucial element that determined my success or failure on the job was how good of a manager I had!

I tend to excel when I have a manager that sets clear priorities and deadlines, and I have tended to have major problems at work when I have either super-laid-back "oh, get it done whenever" managers or strict taskmasters with no freedom to try various approaches. This round of job searching, I will choose my boss carefully....