Blogging journalist killed in Iraq 03 Aug 2005
21 comments Latest by Joe
“When you read this, keep in mind that for various reasons — not the least of which were safety concerns — the piece only scratches the surface of what is happening here,” wrote Steven Vincent recently on In the Red Zone, his blog detailing life as a journalist in Basra, Iraq.
Vincent was found today shot to death. He had recently been sounding the alarm about insurgents infiltrating police units in Basra. The AP reports that the gunmen who killed him may have been riding in a police vehicle.
His recent blog post on The Naive American detailed a discussion between an American captain and an Iraqi woman over whether or not cultural values are truly relative.
Collecting himself, “But should we really get involved in choosing one political group over another?” the Captain countered. “I mean, I’ve always believed that we shouldn’t project American values onto other cultures—that we should let them be. Who is to say we are right and they are wrong?”
But Layla would have none of it. “No, believe me!” she exclaimed, sitting forward on her stool. “These religious parties are wrong! Look at them, their corruption, their incompetence, their stupidity! Look at the way they treat women! How can you say you cannot judge them? Why shouldn’t your apply your own cultural values?”
It was a moment I wish every muddle-headed college kid and Western-civilization-hating leftist could have witnessed: an Air Force Captain quoting chapter and verse from the new American Gospel of Multiculturalism, only to have a flesh and blood representative of “the Other” declare that he was incorrect, that discriminations and judgment between cultures are possible—necessary—especially when it comes to the absolutely unacceptable way Middle Eastern Arabs treat women. And though Layla would not have pushed the point this far, I couldn’t resist. “You know, Captain,” I said, “sometimes American values are just—better.”
21 comments (comments are closed)
Darrel 03 Aug 05
But should we be involved in choosing? Shouldn’t we be enabling them to choose? We can’t even choose in our own best interested over here on our own soil.
Alex Cabrera 03 Aug 05
Damn shame, I enjoyed reading his work.
mrod 03 Aug 05
“Western-civilization-hating leftist”
It’s sad when anyone looses their life but a statement like this yanks this guy of all his intellectual credibility.
“Freedom is never given, it’s taken” T.E. Lawrence
NotMROD 03 Aug 05
“Western-civilization-hating leftist” seems pretty right-on to me. You couldn’t possibly be offended by this (Republican or Democrat) unless you fall into this group. The author isn’t calling all Dems WCH Leftists, he’s talking about the PC BS guilt-purveyors at the FAR LEFT. Just as those at the FAR RIGHT are a$$holes, so are those at the FAR LEFT.
Did you read the article? Did you miss the irony? Darrel obviously still doesn’t get it (first comment.) The whole point is we’re trying to be Sooo PC, when in fact the oppressed would prefer us to just clean house. Don’t mistake the insurgents and fanatics for the Iraqis, when you see a protest of 1500 people demanding foreign troops to leave Iraqi soil, you’re not seeing the 7,000,000 people huddled in the city whispering, “please don’t go.”
Time to start “Getting Real” about the situation over there.
YayUS 03 Aug 05
I agree NM, we’ve tried to fight this war so politely. It’s absurd. We keep hearing about all of the Iraqi civilian casualties, note to world, they are being killed by insurgent/terrorist car bombs, not Allied troops.
Civilian casualties are a fact of any military action, it’s sad, but true. The fact of the matter is, you would have far less civilian casualties over the long haul if you would just bite the bullet and use OVERWHELMING force. The initial numbers would be horrifying, (which is precisely what the US Gov’t is trying to avoid) but it is certainly much easier to kill roaches with a fogger than it is with tweasers.
Jacob 03 Aug 05
mrod: Why?
Do you deny that there are leftists who hate western civilization? I know there are. Does this mean that all leftists hate western civilization? No. Vincent’s desire to have “Western-civiliation-hating leftists” witness the exchange in no way reflects on leftists in general. Don’t imply that it does and attempt to discredit him on the false implication.
ek 03 Aug 05
So please enlighten us NotMROD, what exactly would “‘Getting Real’ about the situation over there” entail? How do you even begin to “clean house” when you have no idea what’s dirty and what’s clean?
As for the bit quoted from one of Vincent’s recent posts, I hardly think that religious parties have a monopoly on corruption, incompetence or stupidity. Unfortunately for Layla, those labels can be applied to many standing governments, religious and otherwise.
And though I feel a little weird disagreeing with someone who’s died doing something that he believed in, I think Vincent was being something of a “muddle-headed college kid” himself in believing that it would be possible for us to impose our values on the Iraqis — whether we wanted to or not (he should have asked the Brits how much luck they had with that).
The only way to impose values is via a strong dictator like, say, Saddam Hussein who, ironically enough, was probably the most progressive leader in the region when it came to gender equality.
So why was it that we went in there again?
ek 03 Aug 05
The fact of the matter is, you would have far less civilian casualties over the long haul if you would just bite the bullet and use OVERWHELMING force. The initial numbers would be horrifying, (which is precisely what the US Gov�t is trying to avoid) but it is certainly much easier to kill roaches with a fogger than it is with tweasers.
Wow, I bet you have one of those yellow ribbon magnets on your SUV, right?
My goodness, to equate the Iraqi people with cockroaches … what really is there to say to that one, but let me give it a try.
What you seem to be missing is that, as things stand right now, it’s very nearly impossible for us to tell the difference between civilians and “the enemy” in Iraq. So I’m not sure who exactly you’re proposing we use “OVERWHELMING force” against, but if you know the answer, I suggest that you give the folks at the Pentagon a call.
Hell, why don’t we just nuke the freaking place — you can kill even more roaches with a nuke than with a fogger, right? That’ll show ‘em roaches not to mess with us!
Dan Boland 03 Aug 05
My goodness, to equate the Iraqi people with cockroaches � what really is there to say to that one, but let me give it a try.
I think the cockroaches comment was an analogy in scope, not in the character of the Iraqi people.
All I know is that I don’t know shit about the war, nor have I met anyone who does, to talk about strategy or “what we should do” in any worthwhile way. I can only wish it had never happened, and that it will be over soon.
LB 03 Aug 05
Allied troops should never have been allowed to go into Iraq in the first place - the US have done so purely for their own selfish gain (oil). They continue to do so for financial gain (‘rebuilding’ contracts).
There are plenty of countries out there with dictators that could do with sorting out - but it’s of no interest to the US because theres nothing there for them to take.
Anonymous Coward 03 Aug 05
There are plenty of countries out there with dictators that could do with sorting out
Then when will the rest of the hundreds of countries in the world step up to get the job done? Oh yeah, they won’t. “Never again” until next time.
Alex Cabrera 03 Aug 05
Allied troops should never have been allowed to go into Iraq in the first place -
Really? I don’t know if you understand much about how the world works, but who granted the US permission to go? I hear “illegal war” this and “illegal war” that, but who is this omnipotent organization that decides what wars are just and what wars aren’t?
the US have done so purely for their own selfish gain (oil). They continue to do so for financial gain (�rebuilding� contracts).
A simple look at current oil prices and basic supply/demand economics prove this point at best idiotic.
Furhtermore, maybe this soulds harsh, but this country would not survive without oil. Should we build technologies that lessen our dependence on them? Of course. Can we achieve this in the next year, 5 years, decade? NO. So you know, what’s wrong with fighting for oil?
There are plenty of countries out there with dictators that could do with sorting out - but it�s of no interest to the US because theres nothing there for them to take.
But you don’t believe that. If we went to war with NK there would be protests in the streets saying our economic policy drove them to war and that it’s the US’s fault. If we try to invade Cuba we’re the imperialist pigs that are trying to crush the last utopian bastion of communism.
No, you’re pissed at the Iraq war because Bush is the one that conducted it. I don’t see you on your little blog bitching about Kennedy got us into Vietnam or about how, ccording to Ossama himself, Clinton’s retreat in Somolia insipired bin Laden to strike the United States in the manner that he did.
The world isn’t pretty. In fact, it’s downright fucking ugly.
Darrel 03 Aug 05
I don�t see you on your little blog bitching about Kennedy got us into Vietnam
Yea, why aren’t more bloggers bitching about 30 year old conflicts instead of these pointless current events?
abr 03 Aug 05
Darrel: Ouch! That’s sharp. :)
Alex Cabrera: So the world is running out of oil, and the US (or, to be fair, any country) can’t handle it — does that really mean one country should be allowed to murder (“fight”) the other?
chris 04 Aug 05
So you know, what�s wrong with fighting for oil?
I wonder what our troops would think if they were told they were fighting for oil…
And as for the guy’s blog, that settles it! I’m convinced! Layla probably represents all of Iraq as well as I represent all of America, so I’m sold. Rest easy, all. We’ve been just.
ronseld 04 Aug 05
No more war!
sloan 04 Aug 05
“Then when will the rest of the hundreds of countries in the world step up to get the job done? Oh yeah, they won�t. �Never again� until next time.”
But we let genocide continue on again and again too. We had Rumsfeld shaking Saddam’s hand after gassing 80,000 Kurds with weaponized gas that we gave him (US companies).
The problem is, military action NEVER reflects even the best of intentions. Its war. Its never good. Can you name a war where things turned out great? THAT was the hubris of Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and many others. Even a “victory” is the slaughter of people on all sides. This administration was way too glib entering the conflict and unprepared for the realities of nation building in such a fragmented region.
Could there have been a better result? Sure, and I am sure there could have been worse results as well. The question is what should be done next and what the vision for the future of the region is and WHOSE vision that is.
You can quibble over the corruption in Iraq, our contractors, our torture of prisoners, the whole thing. In the interim, there is mass suffering and no end in sight and no plan in place.
Menno 05 Aug 05
Yes, and sometimes so-called ‘American’ values are utter crap. But if they’re yours, you’re never going to see the difference. So which are you supposed to impose?
Not much; if it was your oil to begin with. Otherwise, it’s an armed robbery.