Fireside Chat: Richard Bird, Jim Coudal, and Carlos Segura Matt 27 Jul 2006
18 comments Latest by Geoff DiMasi
[Fireside Chats are round table discussions conducted using Campfire.]
Design: Then and Now
We gathered three design veterans (and old friends of 37signals), Richard Bird, Jim Coudal, and Carlos Segura, ‘round the Campfire to chat about “Design: Then and Now.” Topics included their roots/influences, what it’s like to sell your own products, dream projects, control freaks, the loss of craft in design, and how they used to walk five miles to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways.
About the chatters
Richard Bird’s R.BIRD & Company, Inc. is a New York design consulting firm with more than 20 years of experience in brand identity, consumer product packaging, and corporate ID. R.BIRD also sells limited edition, abstract art at Lavaluva.
Jim Coudal’s Coudal Partners works on television, print, identity, interactive, and brand development projects. Coudal also operates Jewelboxing, a source for custom DVD and CD packages, and The Show, home to limited-edition live performances on CD.
Carlos Segura’s Segura, Inc. is a multi-faceted design and communications firm that specializes in print, collateral, and new media communications. Segura also sells fonts at T-26 and custom designed blank CDR’s and cases at 5inch.
Sample quotes
Jim: “[Designers are] reworking old styles instead of making new ones. Eventually we’ll be nostalgic for yesterday or this morning.”
Richard: “Craftsmen are history. Including the likes of Muller-Brockmann, George Lois, Paul Rand and so on. The new design ‘leadership’ are those who draw attention through shock and awe.”
Jim: “Don’t tell anyone but it’s a big improvisation. And anyone who runs a creative firm and tells you differently is lying to you.”
Carlos: “Out ‘cooling’ someone is just a simple, easy, and empty thing to do.”
Richard: “[In the 80’s,] graphic design was a well-respected profession. Our point of view was sought out. Clients competed for our attention. There was a great deal of mystery around what we did and why.”
Carlos: “I’ve had only 6 good clients in my career. I define [a good] one as ‘allowing me to do what they hired me to do.’ I try very hard to do the same when I hire someone.”
Jim: “I truly believe my greatest mistakes are ahead of me. Something to look forward to.”
Full chat transcript after the jump.
| Matt | When did you start designing? Any amusing stories about your first gig(s)? |
| Carlos | i’ve got 1 |
| Carlos | when i got started doing this |
| Carlos | my goal was really to be a drummer in a band (that I was in for 9 years) |
| Carlos | i had 3 duties… 1) drummer, 2) drive the truck, and 3) tell people where we were playing. |
| Carlos | during that process, (i had NO IDEA) i was doing "design", i got known for doing some pretty cool flyers |
| Carlos | similar to what is done today for raves |
| Carlos | long story short… |
| Carlos | when i quit the band, one of my first gigs was as a "keyliner", and when the guy asked if i had experience |
| Carlos | i said yes |
| Richard | Exactly, Carlos. I, too, was my own first client. Promoting a rock’n’roll band in which I was a member. Without realizing it, I was learning the art of graphic design. |
| Richard | Pretty soon, I’m doing the same thing for friends, friends of friends, et cetera. Still, didn’t really feel it was any kind of calling. |
| Carlos | well, the first job i had was to keyline a catalog |
| Carlos | and he gave me a blue pencil and told me to mark it up |
| Carlos | i asked why a blue pencil |
| Carlos | another guy said because the camera does not "see" it |
| Carlos | since i did not know that |
| Carlos | i got fired on the spot, since he knew i had no clue what i was doing. |
| Matt | hah |
| Jason | Carlos, didn’t you used to design the security liners for envelopes? Wasn’t that one of your first jobs? |
| Carlos | yes, |
| Carlos | the second job i had was designing the return addresses for bank deposit envelopes |
| Carlos | i then moved "up" to design the patterns inside the envelopes |
| Carlos | that was the most i’ve learned at a job |
| Carlos | it still serves me to this day |
| Matt | what year are we talking about? |
| Carlos | 1972 and on |
| Jim | I edited a magazine that I started in college but it never occurred to me until I was in the middle of the first issue that it needed to be designed. So I swiped a bunch of ideas from The Village Voice and Punch Magazine and Esquire and… |
| Jim | that was pretty much that |
| Jim | once I got a hold of the optical headline setter I was hooked |
| Matt | jim, what year was that magazine? |
| Jim | I guess 83 |
| Jim | "Fallout" |
| Matt | true or false carlos: when you played drums, you had a pair of platform shoes that had a fishbowl inside the heel? |
| Carlos | true |
| Jim | hehehe |
| Matt | LOVE IT! |
| Jason | Richard, what about you? |
| Richard | I got my first professional gig as a graphic artist completely by accident. I was in New York to do some recording with the band. The band leader suggested I bring my portfolio of drawings (I studied studio art) and see if I could find a job to help out with rent. So, on Monday I headed to an appointment with an employment agency and missed the door, accidentally walking into a small husband/wife graphic arts studio. They were frantically busy. I was hired on the spot. Didn’t have a clue what it was all about. Not really. |
| Richard | That was 1977. |
| Richard | I spent every spare hour I had there in the darkroom, on the board, reading, et cetera. That was my real education. |
| Jason | RB — wow, what a great story. |
| Jason | The one thing I take away from all of your stories is that great things usually happen by accident. |
| Carlos | i agree |
| Jason | Too much planning and you plan your way *out* of opportunities. |
| Jason | I’ve often felt plans are like blinders. Look this way and only this way. Who needs that? |
| Jim | I concur |
| Jim | later I was working at a tv station |
| Jim | ch 32 |
| Richard | (Jim: for me, it was radio.) |
| Matt | question about influences: |
| Matt | Did you have people who influenced you when you began? How have your influences changed over the years? Now that you’re more experienced, do you find you get your inspiration from within instead of from outside sources? |
| Jim | I always looked up to Carlos |
| Carlos | ahhh |
| Jim | and I guess once I discovered Brockmann I had a direction to follow |
| Jim | I get influence from film and art and stuff |
| Jim | try to bend other stuff into design rather than necessarily looking at other designs |
| Jim | lots of record covers and magazines were important too |
| Carlos | i was influenced by Japan for visual input and body language, UK for type direction |
| Carlos | there were many "teaching" tools back in the day that are in essence gone now |
| Carlos | one good example are paper promos |
| Carlos | today, they are full of tricks and special effects |
| Carlos | devoid of "teaching" |
| Carlos | but, back then, they were full of tips and techniques |
| Carlos | primarily because you really had to know your shit |
| Carlos | or you were out |
| Carlos | but also |
| Carlos | they were good trend spotters |
| Jim | def |
| Carlos | the best example of this is the book called "The Pocket Pal". |
| Carlos | this was originally a international papers promo |
| Carlos | it is now a classic book with it’s own website |
| Carlos | very helpful |
| Jim | esp relevant to print production and printing techniques |
| Carlos | a lot of things that designers are involved with today are often done improperly. |
| Richard | Craft is a big problem. |
| Jim | yup |
| Carlos | the preparation of files for print is a great example |
| Richard | I drive myself crazy with the poster ads on the trains. |
| Richard | So many things "wrong" in so many dimensions. |
| Jim | 1 out of every 5 student layouts has poorly handled typography |
| Jim | you can’t be a carpenter without knowing how to drive a nail |
| Carlos | I learned all i know as a "stripper", and while it was all "analog", it still applies |
| Matt | Is it the rise of computers that’s killed the ‘craft’ of design? |
| Richard | No doubt. |
| Carlos | true |
| Jim | C |
| Richard | Nobody "touches" type any more. |
| Carlos | the problem is even deeper though, because the tasks like kerning, leading and trapping are completely missing from most efforts |
| Jason | Let me jump in here, just to take the other position… |
| Jason | Maybe today’s design is just a different kind of design |
| Jason | Like digital music isn’t Mozart |
| Jim | shoddy is shoddy |
| Carlos | i don’t agree |
| Carlos | there are rules |
| Carlos | and not in the "old school" way |
| Jim | totally agree |
| Carlos | just that there are proper way to handle type |
| Carlos | old or new |
| Carlos | part of the problem is the schools and what they (don’t) teach |
| Jason | You could argue that most people making music today can’t read music. Is that a bad thing? |
| Carlos | that is not the same thing |
| Jim | you can’t toss thousands of years of trial and error out the window just because your assistant got a copy of indesign |
| Carlos | right |
| Carlos | and |
| Carlos | you can be a good designer and not have "training" (as i am) just like you don’t have to read music to make it |
| Carlos | but |
| Carlos | there are ways to do it right |
| Jason | I agree, I was just curious about your take. I definitely see and feel the loss of "craft." |
| Jason | I think Carlos will agree — we get what we deserve. |
| Jim | yup |
| Jason | We want everything faster and cheaper. |
| Jason | There’s no time for craft in most projects. |
| Jason | Craft is seen as unnecessary cost these days. Isn’t it your jobs to stick up for it? How much craft do you push back on and say "we *must* do this right?" |
| Jason | You guys are the leaders. If you don’t inject craft who will? |
| Richard | Of course, we inject craft, it’s just not noticed by the client. We could produce the same "idea" shoddily and it will go. |
| Richard | In other words, the craft of design is no longer so much a differentiator. |
| Jim | right |
| Carlos | there is a belief that "craft" is an automatic task that comes bundled with the "computer". It IS NOT. But because of it, it is being forgotten, ignored and worse yet, dismissed as "old". |
| Jim | the kids can buy the equipment for a couple grand |
| Jim | but here’s the important part |
| Jim | they’re BETTER editors |
| Jim | the know it intrinsically |
| Jim | they breathe it |
| Jim | and sometimes you can see that sort of thing in design too |
| Richard | Right. Craftsmen are history. Including the likes of Muller-Brockmann, George Lois, Paul Rand and so on. The new design "leadership" are those who draw attention through shock and awe. |
| Richard | I understand what you’re saying about mastering the tools, Jim, while there are many who claim to, very few actually do. |
| Carlos | very few |
| Jim | jason would you say that by and large the cleanest best looking sites most often have the cleanest best looking code? |
| Jason | Jim, I think people that want to build beautiful things on the outside also want to build beautiful things on the inside. |
| Jason | So those that really care care about both in and out, surface and code. |
| Richard | Love that - inside/outside - thing, JF. That’s a good thought. That’s a curse and a blessing. |
| Carlos | perhaps because i am a type guy |
| Carlos | this part pains me the most |
| Carlos | and i see it everywhere |
| Carlos | even the "pros" (clients and firms) are guilty of it |
| Jim | the great work with type stands out even higher for lack of competition |
| Matt | Carlos, you once said, ‘The early nineties was a very energetic period in graphic design as a whole, and there was plenty of acceptance to go around for different points of views.’…The idea of good/bad design cycles, in the same way there are economic boom/bust periods, is interesting. What was the best/worst era of design during your career? What kind of era are we in now? |
| Jim | I think the mid 80’s were important for attitude and bold layouts in advertising anyhow |
| Richard | 80’s - best of my experience. Graphic design was a well-respected profession. Our point of view was sought out. Clients competed for our attention. There was a great deal of mystery around what we did and why. |
| Carlos | the period we are in now is one of reservation |
| Carlos | especially in type |
| Jim | the beginning of the "ironic" voice |
| Jim | agreed carlos |
| Carlos | "helvetica" is in, and has been for some time |
| Carlos | we can’t wait to copy each other |
| Carlos | i think that sometimes our colleges define how good you are based on how good a copy you can make |
| Jason | Really interesting point, Carlos. |
| Jim | reworking old styles |
| Jim | instead of making new ones |
| Carlos | right |
| Jim | eventually we’ll be nostalgic for yesterday |
| Jim | or this morning |
| Matt | sounds very similar to music these days where remixing, mashups, sampling, etc. are growing in popularity. |
| Jim | interesting point |
| Jim | searching for authenticity |
| Carlos | right |
| Jim | things seem so temporary |
| Jim | we try to emulate stuff from the past that "mattered" |
| Jason | We’ve seen this from time to time with our products. Someone was so excited that they copied Tada List. |
| Jason | But what’s exciting about a copy? That’s saying "I don’t have anything new to offer." |
| Carlos | the US car industry is a great example |
| Carlos | trying to re-live the good old days |
| Jim | its everywhere guys |
| Jim | cars, music, movies, music |
| Matt | they all influence each other too obvs |
| Jim | its like paying an old song in a commercial |
| Jim | push button for emotion |
| Matt | heh, when i hear "lust for life" on a carnival cruise commercial or janis joplin selling mercedes benz, it makes me crazy. wtf? |
| Jim | ‘(we sound like a bunch of old grampas) |
| Jim | grrrr fucking kids’ |
| Richard | flibidy-floo |
| Carlos | this lack of respect for craft blends into the landscape and the by product is that things start to NOT matter. They are seen as "old". |
| Carlos | we need to change that |
| Carlos | don’t apologize for it |
| Carlos | some people actually look up to us |
| Matt | i think it’s good for kids to hear people stand up for what they believe in. don’t give up the fight. |
| Matt | ok, shifting gears: Between T-26, 5-inch, Jewelboxing, The Show, and Lavaluva, you’ve all got your own products you’re creating and selling. How’s that compare to doing normal client work? Is that something you’ve always wanted to do? Or did it result out of a frustration with the typical client-designer relationship? |
| Carlos | both |
| Jim | both |
| Carlos | but it is a personal goal to control my destiny |
| Jim | that’s totally it |
| Matt | So the ideal is no client work? |
| Carlos | YES!!! |
| Jim | to give ourselves the room to be picky about when and if we take client assignments |
| Carlos | ditto |
| Matt | gotcha. |
| Richard | So, everything comes full circle… We began as our own clients and will end (survive) that way. |
| Richard | Some of the most exciting work I see today is in Industrial Design. If I had to start over again, I might go that way. |
| Matt | RB, what industrial design excites you? |
| Matt | For all: Any dream clients? Specific design/redesign job you wish you could do? |
| Jim | I have always wanted to try and work on JUST ONE THING for an extended period of time |
| Richard | Focus… that’s a great thing. |
| Jim | just take the time to make ONE THING PERFECT |
| Jason | Jim I love that idea. |
| Jason | What freedom — to just work on one thing and nail it. |
| Matt | any one thing in particular? |
| Jim | I dunno, a film, a magazine, a house |
| Richard | So much of client work doesn’t allow focus. In fact, it discourages it. And, certainly, doesn’t reward it. |
| Jim | exactly |
| Richard | That’s a great point, Jim, in so many ways. |
| Richard | Years ago, it was not so unusual to be working with one client on one thing for one or two years. That doesn’t happen any more. Our attention and focus is fragmented. |
| Richard | So, the results show it. |
| Jim | if I was a contractor I could go home open a beer and say "I built that this month" |
| Jim | I’m always doing 20 things |
| Jim | I like to think I do them well and I get a rush from Full Panic Mode |
| Matt | def something to that though i wonder if it could also be a grass is greener thing. perhaps once you have just one thing to work on you yearn for the variety of diff projects. |
| Jason | Something I find interesting though… Each one of you guys owns and runs your own business, yet you’re still looking for ways to run it the way you want to run it. What’s holding you back? You’ll never have more freedom than you have now. |
| Jim | we have employees and mortgages and tuitions |
| Jason | "Our…" "Not any more…" This all sounds very unfortunate. Isn’t it up to you? You run your business. |
| Jim | or does the business run you? |
| Jim | don’t tell anyone but |
| Jim | it’s a big improvisation |
| Jim | and anyone who runs a creative firm and tells you differently is lying to you |
| Jim | or lying to herself |
| Jason | Yeah, that’s why we got out of the client business ;) |
| Jim | :) |
| Jason | I guess in many ways Jewelboxing, t26, and 5inch are those side projects that allow you to do it the way you want to do it. |
| Matt | re: improv…i’ve been seeing comedians live quite a bit lately and i find there seems to be an 80/20 mix that the best ones go for: 80% established material and 20% untested or improvised material. i wonder if there’s something to that sorta formula. keeps cycling in some freshness but have enough trusted material to keep you afloat. |
| Richard | Our approach to initial ideation is a lot like that now… allowing untested ideas into the mix. It’s actually been quite successful. |
| Matt | RB, you seem to experiment with new processes and ways of working. do clients respond to that? or is it tough to convince them that stuff matters? |
| Richard | Clients love new processes as long as they don’t have to buy it ;) |
| Carlos | true |
| Carlos | btw… With T26, it was good to contribute to the industry and change the category. I feel proud of that. |
| Matt | CS, what’s been the biggest impact of T26 on the industry? |
| Carlos | wow |
| Carlos | there were really a lot |
| Carlos | and since it’s been 12 years now |
| Carlos | they seem to be forgotten |
| Carlos | giving credit to designers, permitting relaxed licensing, allowing service bureaus to use the font for output, donating funds to non-profits (AIDS), displaying spreads for each font, creating a "music video" for each font, our limited edition font kits, and many many more, are just a few of the innovations T26 put on the market. |
| Jim | for me personally the most fun is learning something new |
| Jim | running your own thing gives you that freedom |
| Jim | and it’s powerful |
| Matt | JC, what are some new things you’ve learned recently? |
| Jim | we’re working on this photo project and we’re creating a way to do the backdrops digitally |
| Jim | most of the learning comes with the goofing around |
| Jim | which is essential; |
| Matt | Carlos, what’s your dream client or (re)design job? |
| Carlos | anything car related |
| Carlos | i recently started CarType.com and I LOVE IT |
| Carlos | i need to find a way to make some cash with that |
| Matt | What car-related design is most exciting to you right now? |
| Carlos | well |
| Carlos | again, i love type, so i especially like the relationship of how type is used on cars, from the readability of the speedometer, to the engine numbers stamped an the frame, and what they mean |
| Richard | Recent interests: Back in 1978, Todd Rundgren and I were the only people on the planet (maybe) writing 3D software on an Apple II. Over the last 3 years or so, I’ve been revisiting design in 3D. |
| Jason | Here’s something I’m genuinely interested in… When’s the last time any one of you were a client? What was that experience like? |
| Jason | One thing I’ve realized is that being a client is hard. |
| Jason | I learned it when I hired some people to work on my house. It’s tough to trust people that can have so much impact on something that’s yours. |
| Jim | never a client, really |
| Jim | not in the design or ad biz |
| Richard | Oh, geez. I’ve been a client of architects a few times. One very bad experience, one very good. Bad experience: the designers simply didn’t listen to requirements. Good experience: very collaborative. |
| Carlos | i’ve had only 6 good clients in my career. I define one as "allowing me to do what they hired me to do". I try very hard to do the same when i hire someone. We are "clients" in our daily lives more often than we care to admit. |
| Jim | C and J and R |
| Jim | are you control freaks? |
| Richard | I don’t want to admit it, but way too often. Yes, a control freak. Only recently did my own Mother admit to me that my grandfather said, "Little Ricky’s gonna have a hard time when he grows up… He wants everything to be just so." I was 5, maybe, at the time. |
| Jim | hehe |
| Carlos | i admit it too |
| Carlos | but |
| Carlos | i do not apologize for it |
| Carlos | i am more open to permitting people to grow than you’d think |
| Carlos | i just expect a lot |
| Carlos | common sense is not so common any more, so I feel like i am often disappointed with basic human behavior. |
| Jim | I try to hide it, sometimes successfully |
| Richard | Yeah, expectations are high. |
| Matt | i don’t think you can do what you guys do w/o being a control freak. |
| Matt | and i don’t think it’s necessarily a bad quality. |
| Richard | Certainly. Some of the most respected designers in any discipline are known to be "tyrants" and perfectionists. |
| Jim | I don’t take over jobs |
| Jim | I just never give them up to begin with! |
| Matt | heh |
| Matt | SHIFT: How much do you separate your work from your life? Has that balance changed over the years? Is your goal to integrate them as much as possible or keep them separate? |
| Carlos | it has changed in a big way for me |
| Carlos | i worked 24/7 for years |
| Carlos | now (perhaps because I am older and sick of the bullshit) i take more time to enjoy what I believe i have earned |
| Richard | I’m a slob at home… and there’s little evidence of what I do for a living. That’s not at all a conscious decision. |
| Richard | Meanwhile, I’ve measured every centimeter of our office in some way. |
| Jim | keep the working hours and locations separate |
| Jim | i’ve made a decision that I WILL NOT work at all when I’m home w/ the fam |
| Jim | work is too dominant in my life |
| Carlos | it is in mine too |
| Richard | Like Carlos, I work way too hard and too long. So, I don’t too it at home by default. |
| Jim | but I don’t feel stuck, just a bit unbalanced |
| Jim | having 3 kids is making a difference |
| Matt | i bet! |
| Matt | Last one…What’s been your biggest mistake? What did you learn from it? |
| Carlos | i now search for greater importance in the jobs i take |
| Carlos | i feel like it all is for not sometimes |
| Matt | CS, how do you define "importance"? |
| Carlos | how do I define "importance"? i define it as not doing something for the simple sake of it, and in hopes of making a real difference in the category that I am working in. Even better, if i can do something that will be a positive and helpful solution. Out "cooling" someone is just a simple easy and empty thing to do. |
| Jim | I waited forever to start my own thing |
| Jim | wasted 3-5 years |
| Matt | JC, what was holding you back? |
| Matt | fear? |
| Jim | fear |
| Jim | laziness |
| Richard | Biggest mistake is ongoing. Somewhere along the line, I’ve become aware of risk. In best of times, the concept of risk never entered my mind. Just go with the flow and things happen. I’d like to recapture that. |
| Jim | I truly believe my greatest mistakes are ahead of me |
| Matt | JC, u sound optimistic about that. as perhaps you should be. |
| Jim | something to look forward to |
Richard Bird art directing in 1979:
18 comments so far (Jump to latest)
Coudal 27 Jul 06
Thanks for inviting me guys, it was a fun discussion. Reading it over now I think I ought to say that I do realize that I’m as guilty as anyone of robbing the past to design the present, esecially when to comes to typography. My current torrid affair with Avant Garde Gothic is an indictment all by itself and even when I find myself ‘cheating on my steady’ it’s more often than not lately to sneak off for a quick rendezvous with Didot.
Jason Santa Maria 27 Jul 06
What a fantastic chat. Thanks for sharing! It was not only motivational but inspirational.
ML 27 Jul 06
Have a suggestion for a future Campfire chat? Post it here. An ideal suggestion would include 2-3 participants and a specific topic you’d like to see them discuss.
Bird 27 Jul 06
Thanks, too, for the invite. How fast an hour goes by in Campfire, a real productivity burner ;)
(btw, I had no intention of implying that Muller-Brockmann, Rand, or Lois were “history,” as in no longer relevant. Quite the opposite, of course.)
Cameron 27 Jul 06
Thanks for the chat, it really helps to see it from the perspective of someone who has been doing this for years. Sometimes I wonder if the first year of working for yourself is the hardest. I guess its all the same, you just get used to it!
Mark Boulton 27 Jul 06
Fascinating. Inspiring. Wonderful to be able to share your thoughts with us.
Mark Boulton 27 Jul 06
Fascinating. Inspiring. Wonderful to be able to share your thoughts with us.
Josh Williams 27 Jul 06
Love it. Good stuff fellas. The Fireside Chats are one of the best segments I’ve seen at SVN.
I’d love to hear a conversation with Jake and Jacob of SkinnyCorp/Threadless, and perhaps Rob (or one of the other guys) from Etsy discussing community-driven online marketplaces.
Jeff Croft 27 Jul 06
Great chat. Very inspiring. Thanks so much to all three of you, and thank you, 37signals, for doing these. They’re really great.
Seth Thomas Rasmussen 27 Jul 06
Richard,
“Back in 1978, Todd Rundgren and I were the only people on the planet (maybe) writing 3D software on an Apple II. “
Is that the same Todd Rundgren that didn’t want to work, but rather bang on the drum all day?
Bird 27 Jul 06
Seth, Yes. Same guy. Todd and I both owned the first and last graphics tablet that would interface with an Apple II, made by Apple. Todd was an early pioneer in “computer graphics,” starting his own company aptly named, Utopia Software, Woodstock, NY. His paint program (can’t remember the name of that) was the only program available at the time that supported the Apple graphics tablet.
benny 27 Jul 06
A very good question, Seth, I am curious of that as well =)
And a quick look at Wikipedia answers yes.
JOe 27 Jul 06
“shock and awe”? I had no idea Donald Rumsfeld was a craftsman and design leader!
Cheshire Dave 27 Jul 06
Another very engaging discussion. I’ve been in the business for some 15 years (also getting into it by accident), but since I’ve usually been part of a small (or one-person) design department and haven’t been involved in many design organizations, I don’t often get a chance to hear other designers talk shop. I really like the informality of the Fireside Chat structure.
I’m intrigued by the notion of beautiful inside/beautiful outside in terms of web design (and whatever else applies). I’d love to see a discussion about that. The only person I can think of at the moment to include would be Patric King. Maybe Jon Hicks? Jason Santa Maria?
Ismo 28 Jul 06
I’m 23 years old. I’ve been ran my own business something about 10 years now.
Jim: “or does the business run you?”
My brains stopped when I read Jim’s quote. I just noticed, that “freedom of working” is just an illusination to me.
Work and life balance:
I have 8/8/8 -rule which means 8 hours working, 8 hours friends/home/alone, 8 hours sleeping.
I don’t follow that everyday. But in long-run Yes.
Geoff DiMasi 29 Jul 06
If you want to read some further thoughts on beautiful inside/outside, check out the biography of artist Robert Irwin. He would spend a great deal of time making his painting surface (wall, canvas, etc.) perfect so that it was a solid piece.
Much like caring about good code and good design, at the same time.
It is:
Seeing Is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees: A Life of Contemporary Artist Robert Irwin by Lawrence Weschler
He currently crafts the most incredible site-specific installations. If you are interested in craft, you should also check him out…