Push optional data entry as far back as you can 09 May 2006
35 comments Latest by ritesh kumar singh
A friend recently asked me to beta test his new product. I’d heard about its development over the past few months so I was curious.
When it was finally time to sign up for the beta I dove right in. Well, I wanted to dive right in but the signup process was 5 steps of heavy forms with all sorts of questions that just didn’t seem relevant at the time. I’m sure they were relevant to the engineers who built the product, but they weren’t relevant to me. Why did they need to know which school I went to? Why did they need to know my gender?
That signup process solidified my long held belief: don’t ask for it if you really don’t need it. And I mean if you really don’t need it. There’s a world of difference between “nice to know now” and “need to know now.”
We’re staying true to this as we build Sunrise. Sunrise is about people. People have all sorts of data associated with them: phone numbers, email addresses, companies, job titles, addresses, etc. You know — everything a vCard can have. Lots of fields and lots of data. But how much of it do we really need to know up front? Just their name. And that’s all we’re asking for.
If a field is optional consider leaving it off the page during the add process. Display it on edit, but hide it on add.
When you build an app that requires data entry, think hard about how much you really need now. If you don’t really need it now then don’t ask for it now. There’s always time to fill it in later.
Sunrise Sidenote: For those who are wondering when Sunrise will be released, we don’t know. We recently decided we didn’t like where it was going and we threw most of it out. We’ve started on what we think is a significantly simpler and better Sunrise. We’re making good progress. We went through a similar process when we designed Backpack — we tossed about 2/3rds of the app out and focused hard on simplification. It worked then and we believe it’s working great this time as well. We’ll provide more information when we’re ready to share it.
35 comments so far (Jump to latest)
Tom 09 May 06
Sounds like you tried signing up for fluxiom.com
Glenn Davies 09 May 06
CRM - Customer Relationship Management
CMR - Customer Managed Relationships
Sunrise - will be different.
Thanks for the update!
Ryan McMinn 09 May 06
I try to look at optional and required data the same way, as a selfish user. Will the user get direct value out of entering the info?
Some signups ask me for marital status, yearly income or my phone number. In most cases giving that info only helps the site and doesn�t directly improve my experience. If it�s not going to benefit the user directly I don�t include it.
Having a bunch of optional fields is just a little less annoying then making them all required, they are still a barrier to entry even if you can skip them. If your signup form is more than one page it might need a re-evaluation. (And a side note: unless you are Hotmail of Ticketmaster you probably don�t need a CAPTCHA).
Travis 09 May 06
I battle with this issue often. One aspect that’s not addressed in the post or comments above is the issue of why you need the data (required or otherwise). I definitely lean towards keeping registration forms as small as possible. But suppose you’re creating an ad-driven site and you therefore want as much demographic info as possible to be able to target ads to the user. Sure, you can leave extra fields off of the reg. form and hope they fill it in later, but they probably won’t. That’s where you have to try and strike a balance between the minimum data required and asking for so much info that they don’t even want to register at all…
Daniel, Rogue Connect 09 May 06
This certainly rings true for the most recent update to Rogue Connect. Previously, our application form had been 4 pages long. Analysing server logs we found that a good quarter of those who started the process, never finished it.
Our most recent version is 2 pages long, and only has 1/4 of the questions. We’ve cut it down to the integral ones. Some of them are optional fields, but with the quality we’re after they’re very telling fields and 99% of the people who get membership did fill them in.
Ken Walker 09 May 06
Um, how about an update on the Backpack calendar, too? :)
Paul Thrasher 09 May 06
That’s funny, I was procrastinating from working on my registration page to read this. Maybe I don’t need their zip-code up front. I’m trying to keep it very minimal but it’s hard when your app depends on a few extra columns from the db. Thanks for the tip!
I’ve seen a few sites that simply ask for email and password, which is pretty nice. There are also those sites that hold all your preferences in a cookie until you actually register. Pretty slick.
Paul Thrasher 09 May 06
That’s funny, I was procrastinating from working on my registration page to read this. Maybe I don’t need their zip-code up front. I’m trying to keep it very minimal but it’s hard when your app depends on a few extra columns from the db. Thanks for the tip!
I’ve seen a few sites that simply ask for email and password, which is pretty nice. There are also those sites that hold all your preferences in a cookie until you actually register. Pretty slick.
Steve 09 May 06
Nice post. Always a pleasure to read.
This Sunrise thing sounds pretty cool. I love the idea of Plaxo but HATE the app. I’d like to see you guys get this right.
Ken Rossi : CivilNetizen.com 09 May 06
I need CRM software for my product business. I was hoping this came out already but I would rather them spending time making something useful then the usual bloatware.
Dave Churchville 09 May 06
Sunrise is definitely intriguing…possibly because I can’t figure out which aspect of CRM it’s going to tackle with just a name :-)
Thanks for posting these little tidbits, though, it’s definitely building my interest - CRM is one area of my business that I’ve been looking for some alternative to the typical “capture a bunch of customer data and spam them”.
CoryS 09 May 06
We’ve struggled with users asking the basic question of if we’re gonna ask for it, we should ask once and not play games with making them add more over time. Seems like there’s a fine line between knowing what’s needed upfront v. what’s needed to be an active worthwhile participant in a community. Look forward to seeing how you tackle it.
Um... Bob. Bob... Jones... 09 May 06
Hmmm… Whenever I feel I’m being asked for too much information, I always just lie.
Matt Turner 10 May 06
Just when i’d got the domain ‘earlymornings’ 37signals talk about a product called ‘sunrise’… I better hurry up or people will just think i’m copying!
Gotta say, it sounds very cool though, and I really agree about the form fields thing. For example I went to get Solaris and they wanted everything but my passport number, nearly all ‘required’.
James 10 May 06
Don’t forget to include at least the option to add more data up front. Simplicity is very nice but can be taken too far. If I am ready to add a bunch of data I don’t want extra screens in the way (Simple add screen + edit screen).
Consider Javascript that allows you to hide portions of data entry forms; these can be expanded to allow for optional data entry. A containing div can be styled so that it is obvious that the contained data entry forms are optional and don’t need to be filled out (for when a user has disabled Javascript).
Matt Lee 10 May 06
Jason,
Will Sunrise have some way to easily import data? I’d find it pretty handy to be able to dump my existing address book to a file and import that…
Don Schenck 10 May 06
Jason — your product names remind me of those Back-To-The-Land children of the early 70’s, with names like “Star” and “Moondancer” and “Bliss”.
Oh … wait … I dated a girl named Bliss in high school.
Anyhoo … how about a “Name Our Product” contest some time??
Just a (probably dumb) idea …
Edmundo 10 May 06
I think that anyone involved in software development (and that’s including static websites, games, etc. anything that is technically software) should at least remember two clich� quotes:
Just because you can, it doesn’t mean that you should.
…and…
There is a time and place for everything.
—-
Let’s see… if Campfire was about talking in a group, then sunrise must uh… help you with your morning somehow. I know… it’s an alarm clock, isn’t it?! (Trying to start some 37s rumors here…)
Nice names you guys come up with, though, really. They’re simple and yet they somehow define what the application is. Do you come up with your own names or do you work with some marketing person or do you have people with marketing? Any advice on coming up with names?
JF 10 May 06
Nice names you guys come up with, though, really. They�re simple and yet they somehow define what the application is. Do you come up with your own names or do you work with some marketing person or do you have people with marketing? Any advice on coming up with names?
Thanks. We come up with the names. They just pop into our head and we go with them. Names are important, but they generally aren’t worth spending a lot of time and money on. Pick one you like and move on.
We don’t have a marketing department.
Ben Rowe 10 May 06
A site I’ve come across recently is www.librarything.com. It’s the easyest sign-up process I’ve come across. And no, I don’t work for them.
You are now officially big 10 May 06
Stop saying that you are small when you can afford to throw away code left and right.
Vishi 11 May 06
Nice.
One advantge of less is that you can throw away what you have built and start again with out a lot of pain.
The Voice of Reason 11 May 06
Does it bother anyone else that the Getting Real approach can mean throwing away 2/3rd’s of a product? Or that release dates end with “we don’t know”?
Just seems kinda strange that a company can claim that throwing away a ton of code isn’t a complete waste of time.
I love 37s apps. I use them every day. There’s no disputing your process works for you. But when does Getting Real start to fail? When you’ve thrown out the third version of an app?
I mean no offense by this rant. Just looking for clarification on how you resolve this according to Getting Real.
PK 13 May 06
It requires a lot of courage to scrap something after investing a considerable amount of time and effort.
No wonder they are still able to pull of products that work, a perfect example of getting real.
I think answer is in the question itself.
Would it be wise to build something that you know is not right? Or invest time in producing something that works.
There are loads of products out there in the market today coz some people compromised and invested more time on building products that are not right. ( read crappy)
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