I’m a big fan of swearing. Not in the derogatory, directed-at-you kind of way (“hey, fuck you!”), but as verbal marker to underline key concepts, create emphasis, and express passion. It certainly doesn’t work in every environment nor should it, but there are plenty were it does.
The first place where I’ve found it to be useful is between coworkers (“fuck, that’s awesome”). A team of British researchers found a while ago that profanity at work can help build solidarity and release stress. Couldn’t agree more. When people feel comfortable enough to let their emotions bare with the use of profanity, I’ve found the resulting atmosphere to be so much more relaxed and pleasurable. It’s not the profanity itself (although I adore “fuck” as one of the most versatile words in the English language), but what it says about the knitting of the culture.
The second place I’ve used profanity to great effect is at conferences where you feel you know the audience enough to loosen your tie and want to create a mental dog ear for an idea. Of all the presentations I’ve given, I’ve generally had the most positive feedback from the ones that carried enough passion to warrant profanity and it’s been very effective in making people remember key ideas (“they sell fucking shoes”).
It seems that profanity can work as a record button for the brain. It brings people to the edge of their attention as they’re trying to figure out whether they’re supposed to be offended or inspired. And then the content warrants the emphasis, the idea seems to stick better and longer and with more affection.
As with any tool, it can certainly be misused and applied to the wrong audience. But you can cut yourself with a great steak knife too. Use profanity with care and in the right context and it can be fucking amazing.
Dhrumil
on 20 Aug 08hell yes
Paul Barry
on 20 Aug 08May I be the first jackass to say I couldn’t fucking agree more.
Dhrumil
on 20 Aug 08You know who curses the best? Fucking Gordon Ramsey. That player has his game right.
Juan Pablo
on 20 Aug 08Well, Im not a big fan of that kind of language, but I’ve heard and see some of your conferences and it make sense and works very good, creating the right mood or just feel your passion when speaking. Keep fuck* doing it
Ólafur Nielsen
on 20 Aug 08I love characters who are able to loosen up heavy corporate meatings just by acting little bit like idiots and swear.
You can just see how the tight-up folks get nervous around people behaving like that, fucking love it :)
DHH
on 20 Aug 08Gordon Ramsey is indeed fucking awesome and he pulls off his sailor mouth with being so incredibly spot on. Love that he’s working in a business as stuffy as Michelin-stared restaurants and still manages to keep it going.
Dave Greiner
on 20 Aug 08Couldn’t agree more David, profanity has got to be the best ice breaker out there. It instantly says you’re comfortable enough around that person when used in the right context. Context being the key there.
John
on 20 Aug 08I don’t really mind the occasional expletive, but it honestly reminds me more of my days amongst the framers and brickies when I worked construction jobs as a kid. I hope workplaces I’m in are scores of levels above that atmosphere.
Frankly, I think your doing your own intellect a disservice by using fck all the time (or Smurf, for that matter).
It may *work, but there’s more elegant ways to go about things. Spaghetti code, grenades and chainsaws work too, but usually there’s a better approach for things.
Kevin Thompson
on 20 Aug 08Definitely an interesting take on profanity in the work place. Although I don’t think anyone would stop me from using profanity in our offices, I know of at least a few people it would make very uncomfortable. Obviously there’s always exceptions to the rule, but as with most of your writing, it’s definitely something to keep in mind.
Also, I think you found Zappos’ new slogan. “Zappos – We sell fucking shoes!”.
beau
on 20 Aug 08I’m fucking offended by all the profanity
Tim
on 20 Aug 08@David
I understand what your saying and to some extent agree that swearing can make things a little more casual (which is a good thing).
But when you, yes you, give presentations and on the presentation deck have the f-bomb … that’s a different story.
Putting the f-bomb on a slide is completely intentional, planned, and unprofessional … even if presenting to a group of friends.
Just my 2 cents.
DHH
on 20 Aug 08Tim, I’m always curious to learn more about the nature of resistance to profanity. So as I read it, it’s worse to write down profanity than to speak it aloud? That the visual impact is more offensive than the audio impact?
In any case, you point out that almost regardless of the audience, you’re going to have someone who doesn’t like it. So you have to be willing to trade and balance the positive response with the negative. I generally am.
Leandro N. Camargo
on 20 Aug 08Fuck yeah! Actually I already did that for some years in an ex-workplace, when I wasn’t working at home. It’s ptretty cool casting some profanity words and expressions in the middle of your coding sessions and your coworkers doing the same. It’s a cool work environment indeed.
Anonymous Coward
on 20 Aug 08Zappos also sells regular shoes.
Quix
on 20 Aug 08“Profanity is the attempt of a lazy and feeble mind to express itself forcefully.” – anon
Not a fan of the profane, at the office or elsewhere. Pointless and mindless. Anyone can do it – and what’s so special about that? Ultimately, profanity makes you look (and sound) like a tool.
Instead of a profanity, why not try to say something original and/or witty?
ML
on 20 Aug 08I think it’s also that profanity comes from a place of passion. It shows you care about what you’re talking about.
If you just try to glue on curse words to something you don’t really give a shit about, it just seems tacked on and gratuitous. But if you actually care, it can be a great symbol that you’re really into what you’re saying.
John
on 20 Aug 08When I was in grad school, getting a PhD in English from Harvard, I got a chance to give a lecture on Milton’s epic poem “Paradise Lost.” There were maybe 400 undergrads in the audience.
I refered to Adam and Eve’s post-fall sex - quoting the scholar John Hollander, I think - as their “first fallen fucking.”
Since I quoted a scholar, it was legit.
It sure made the students sit up.
Greg
on 20 Aug 08Some other people I know (recent college grads) have decided they need to stop swearing since they are now adults. Fuck that. I will take any vindication I can get, but you are definitely on the mark here.
Jesper
on 20 Aug 08As long as profanity or cursing is a) directed at things that wouldn’t be able to be offended as well as b) applied productively, c) in moderation and d) respectfully, it’s okay.
Used as a tool: yes. Used to be a tool: no.
Greg
on 20 Aug 08Wait, quick question… got any research about drinking on the job? Please please please.
Jon
on 20 Aug 08I dont mind profanity once in a while, but a lot of the time its just lazy writing or speaking. Havent sworn since grade 2, guess I grew out of it.
Andreas Gehret
on 20 Aug 08I see what you mean and still agree to John: It may work some times, but it might not the best way to transport or create a passionate mood, and certainly you’re not doing yourself or your cause a favour in front of most audiences.
DHH
on 20 Aug 08I love the charge against profanity as being unoriginal. Most words and phrases uttered are unoriginal. In fact, in many contexts, picking profanity is indeed the original and witty choice.
Also, I don’t think there’s anything categorically mindless about profanity. I usually pick it with care and deliberation. Exactly because it is a tool of rare usage, I tend to think it generally requires more mind and point.
That’s not to argue that profanity can’t be used in both a pointless, mindless, unoriginal, and unfunny way. Certainly can, but so can most other phrases, words, and sayings. There’s nothing inherent about the profane that makes all usage fit in such a constrained box, though.
aimee.mychores.co.uk
on 20 Aug 08Hmm, seems a bit risky to me. You’re almost certainly going to get it wrong and offend some people at least some of the time. A person can be offended without necessarily looking/acting offended.
Anonymous Coward
on 20 Aug 08@Quix
People who knock profanity are generally being aloof. Witty is always appreciated, but there’s no virtue in censorship for censorship’s sake. Especially considering that most verbal teetotalers replace the selected jargon with something more PC, but equally intended.
“Darn it” means the same thing as “dammit,” but the narrow minded seem to prefer the former to the latter.
Marten
on 20 Aug 08Eighteen comments and no-one to cite Boondock Saints yet?
GeeIWonder
on 20 Aug 08I swear a lot—everybody does.
I do find, though, that it’s one of the single best indicators of the level of education. People often use it because they can’t think of the word they want to use, or out of a sense of impotence.
Anyhow, Carlin, Bruce and others did this bit best. There’s really no need to fight the 4 letter words or words you can’t say on TV battles—those were won long ago.
Besides, there are much better, much less trivial, words that can sting or accent far more effectively and are far less blunted at this point. ‘Whoreson’ is a great modifier but ‘Zed’ is brilliant.
Swearing can certainly be exploited to bridge gaps and situations. But just because the union rep flies in wearing a jean jacket instead of a suit, don’t believe for a second he’s not taking a private jet home.
Frankly I find such manipulative condescension at least as offensive as the words in question.
Darren
on 20 Aug 08You my friend are my hero for today!
Not only do I strongly agree with you but Its awesome to see it on such a “respectable” site. Being an a 13 year veteran of the US Navy not only do I talk like a dirty sailor but I’ve been known to make a dirty sailor blush.
Not only does it put others at ease (in the right environment) but it opens them up to you because they feel they can say anything.
I have over the years gotten allot of comments on how being a potty mouth can be very contagious to those around you.
DHH
on 20 Aug 08Another argument for profanity being witty is stand-up comedians. It’s a rare find to find any who doesn’t swear liberally during every show. And yet somehow, they still make people laugh their asses off.
Could certainly be that stand-up comedians appeal to a very narrow audience, but I don’t really think so. Perhaps it’s just more expected in that context. Which of course is another argument for profanity being original in other contexts (since it’s not what’s expected).
D. Lambert
on 20 Aug 08According to Lewis Black, “Fuck” is a punctuation mark. :-)
Sergio de la Garza
on 20 Aug 08I agree with you that “fuck” is such a versatile word. i wish we have someting like “fuck” in spanish language… hey now that i remember we have “chingar” haha and we can used it as an action verb, pasive verb or an adverb just like fuck :D
a webo!
regards
Dennis Eusebio
on 20 Aug 08When its paired with intelligence and wit I don’t mind it.
Andy Keep
on 20 Aug 08I whole heartedly agree. I’ve used profanity mixed with extreme politeness to emphasize the importance of something.
For instance, I was going to be cancelled from a flight to a city I’d never been to, meeting friends whose phone numbers and addresses I didn’t have (I was in college and none of us had cell-phones back in the day). I was very, very polite, up until they the end, when I explained, again politely, my situation, and then added “Basically, if I don’t get on this plane, I’m fucked.” for emphasis. Moments later my boarding pass was being scanned and I was on my way.
Bill
on 20 Aug 08I learned all I know about versatile words from George Carlin :)
Chris Bailey
on 20 Aug 08David, and others, maybe you’ve heard this awesome audio bit on how versatile the word fuck is, this is a must listen.
As they say, use it more often, and “it will identify the quality of your character” :)
Daniel Higginbotham
on 20 Aug 08This is an excellent essay on profanity and taboo language by linguist Steven Pinker:
http://www.tnr.com/currentissue/story.html?id=246c0071-a9cd-46e2-a665-c6e61a45377e
Jonathan
on 20 Aug 08Profanity can be effective if rarely used. I rarely swear, but when I do, it absolutely grabs peoples attention. It means I’m serious. It means I’m not going to brook any pansy attitudes.
But to use it simply as a tool to make people remember “they sell fucking shoes”? Please. Profanity isn’t a pneumonic device to be used by managers and directors, it’s a way of communicating distinct and abrupt emotion.
Ultimately, I’d rather see profanity used less than more in the workplace, and use it only in the most intense of circumstances… otherwise you really begin to lose its effectiveness, and you start becoming the potty-mouth manager who is remembered more for the words used, than the ideas communicated.
David Reese
on 20 Aug 08I find it separates ‘my people’ from people who i won’t jive with anyway. Finding out somebody is opposed to “that kind of language” is something like finding out they LOVE developing in visual studio: a good sign that we’re on different planets. They probably won’t like, or moreover won’t get, what I’m saying anyway.
Alejandro Moreno
on 20 Aug 08@Sergio, how could you forget the many uses of “chingar?” And you also forgot about “madre,” like in madriza, madrear, madreado, et cetera. ;o)
David Christiansen
on 20 Aug 08Couldn’t disagree more.
Nathan
on 20 Aug 08I hate to say it, but you guys are getting very repetitive. (i.e. http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/17-swearing-at-work-boosts-morale). I love all your products and Rails, of course, but every time you’re interviewed it seems like the same topics are discussed (lately, the venture vs. product debate). Maybe it’s my own fault for saturating myself with the content as each one does target a different audience (i.e. svn blog post vs. conference keynote). Anyway – personally would love to see a lot more technical posts.
Tanner Christensen
on 20 Aug 08I fucking love it when professionals swear.
Scott Williams
on 20 Aug 08It’s analogous to a highlighter, best used when you want to draw attention to something. But when you highlight half of a page, nothing is important any more.
Dan
on 20 Aug 08I am always impressed by those who show the self-control, discipline, and respect to refrain from using profanity. To me, it usually sounds about as sophisticated as tacking “lol” onto every other sentence. But much less polite.
I think it’s a rather sad irony that (in my experience) often the same people who show what borders on obsessive care not to be offensive about an age, a race, a gender, or a belief-system, are the ones who show no consideration or common courtesy for those who don’t enjoy hearing sexual crudities spewed in amusement, or the name of Christ bludgeoned in anger.
Hyrum Tanner
on 20 Aug 08Profanity does not endear people to you, unless it lowers you to a baser level that they need you to be at to start to care about what you’re saying.
A lot of people find profanity offensive. There have been a lot of studies done as to why this is. Typically, it’s because profanity either makes you feel empowered by the way it allows you to belittle other people (thus offending those people), or refers to bodily functions or fluids which people find unappealing for obvious reasons.
As long as you’re being offensive, why don’t you show pornographic images or come to work naked? No doubt it would be more “pleasurable” and “comfortable” for you. The reason of course is that it doesn’t matter if it’s pleasurable or comfortable for one person: it needs to be that way for everyone there.
When you’re with your buds, and you can feel confident that everyone will appreciate your vulgarity, then fire away. But at work, this will almost never be the case. Use of offensive language or anything else offensive in such a group environment is selfish and can often be a form of sexual harassment.
Merle
on 20 Aug 08Our culture is beginning to circle the drain.
DHH
on 20 Aug 08Nathan, most people aren’t like you. They haven’t heard every interview or read every interview we’ve done. Thus, the ideas are new to them even when they feel old to you.
If ideas could only ever be presented once, they probably wouldn’t make it very far. Ideas reach mass audiences by repetition, slight variation, and different channels.
If you feel that you’ve absorbed all there is to absorb, then give yourself a pad on the back and find another source that feels new to you (while it might feel old to others). No hard feelings at all, promise ;)
Matt Gorecki
on 20 Aug 08@John, I worked as an wireless internet installer for quite some time and I did a lot of installs on building under construction. It was always more comfortable and stress free to deal with the framers and brickies. Unlike most office environments where everybody puts up a facade of so-called decency. Most people just need to relax a little bit and not take offense to every little word.
Justin
on 20 Aug 08I can’t argue that profanity at a conference talk can make peoples’ ears perk up. However, why is that? Do we recognize profanity as an audible marker that something important is about to be said? Or is it because such words are considered taboo, and thus when one hears such being used from a podium over the PA system the automatic reaction is a measure of surprise at hearing it?
If it’s a matter of surprise, is the use of profanity for such purposes an example of masterful speaking ability or a cheap shock tactic?
Is it possible to be as memorable a speaker, to express equal passion, or establish an equal level of comfort without profanity as with?
If profanity is not the only method to accomplish the stated goals, then what ultimately is the message that you are trying to convey to your audience by choosing to use profanity? Is it simply a matter of convenience?
DHH
on 20 Aug 08Justin, underlining a key point is one aspect, but using profanity for personal enjoyment is another. I have more fun presenting when I do it in a manner that’s closer to how I normally speak amongst friends. Which includes the occasional use of profanity.
Steven Ametjan
on 20 Aug 08Cursing in a presentation has definitely made it stand out in my mind more than presentations sans cursing. In fact, 5 years after one class in college, I can still remember exactly what was going on when my teacher exclaimed “If you’re going to hint at the f-word, just fucking say it!”
NICK
on 20 Aug 08Someone once told me that swearing is a sign of ignorance and I have to agree with them. Throwing a swear word out in a time of anger, happiness or fear is just simply the easy way out. Rather than actually articulating your thoughts to the people around you it’s much easier to blurt out swear words. It’s efficient yes, but the people around you deserve more, they should be communicated to effectively and swearing in my opinion is not a good example of effective communication.
John
on 20 Aug 08@DHH:
“I usually pick it with care and deliberation.” Riiiiight. lol. And how is using the same word to mean multiple things not unoriginal or mindless? The words profane and expletive are drenched with meaning that infers a lack of thought and/or respect.
And my 4 year old giggles at naughty words… I respect a comedian who doesn’t have to resort to vulgarity/taboo to be funny. It’s a higher level of funny, imho.
@Matt Gorecki
I wasn’t talking about offense, I was talking about atmosphere. I’m not offended by stupid people or a messy office, but I don’t really like working around either.
Mark
on 20 Aug 08I would argue that it’s not the use of profanity that works, but rather it’s the show of raw emotion and feeling behind the word that gets the attention and / or comfort of your audience.
The “getting real” aspect is telling things as you really feel them, and not hiding under a bucketful of fancy consultant language or political correctness. The highlight of your emotion can be accomplished in any number of ways—raising your voice, banging your fist on the table, body language, tone, intonation…
It’s the transparency that people appreciate (and want), not the profanity necessarily.
Stephen
on 20 Aug 08I personally don’t trust someone until I hear them drop an F bomb. Of course there are other factors but if I’m honest, this puts me a lot more at ease with someone most of the time.
It lets me know for the most part that I’m dealing with someone who is most likely not putting everything they say through some kind of calculated filter.
I’ll admit that used in excess, it can also be a sign of a lack of intelligence, or even some hyper-emotion. I would rather deal with either case over someone who is trying to put up a BS front any day.
JR
on 20 Aug 08You are so fucking right.
Seems to me that profanity is one of those things that is deeply embedded in American culture yet is “despised” by the mainstream. “Despised” in quotes because it’s really just a superficial use of the term.
Just look at our good, clean politicians. Behind closed doors they are known to say word we wouldn’t even feel comfortable saying as web monkeys.
That being said I think it’s all about context. “the iPhone is pretty fucking amazing, man” will probably go over much better than “mom, you make the best fucking turkey.”
So for those of you absolutists, it’s called making adult choices.
David Fendley
on 20 Aug 08Dhrumil: Fuck yes he does!
StartBreakingFree.com
on 20 Aug 08A lot of people will think this is stupid, but you are right.
I’d never thought about the “mental dog ear”, but it does work. I used it in a talk last week without knowing it.
Marc
on 20 Aug 08Not sure if this fits spot on to this post, but last weekend I’ve been to a concert right here in Hamburg (Germany) from a band called “Deichkind”.
Knew them before and I expected it to pretty “heavy” but what went on there literally blew my mind. They were so outgoing, so freaky, so different from anything that’d ever seen before (perform live). The crowd just went fucking crazy and I found it to be pretty stimulating, alive and refreshing to see so many people act in such a different way then they would normally do if you met them in the streets or at work.
So, I’d like to share this link with you, which gives you a pretty good impression. Lyrics are in german, but the show pretty much speaks for itself:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x67/porkyvcodex/?action=view¤t=deichkind_live.flv
Watch ‘till the end – its worth it. :-)
Anonymous Coward
on 20 Aug 08Personally, cursing comes off as immature and hackish. But that’s just me.
Douglas Neiner
on 20 Aug 08David. You have a great brain, and I love RoR. I love 37 Signals, your products, and many of your philosophies. However….
The premise of this blog post is ridiculous. If it is true, then it is an embarrassing reflection of our society. What you think boosts morale only takes you and your fellow man further down a moral decline.
What I love about those who habitually swear, is eventually they can’t really say much more than one word over and over for emphasis. F-this, and F-that. Revealing a stunning vocabulary of 5 or so choice words mixed in with ordinary conversation.
As evidenced by the many supporting posts, this world accepts far more than it ever used to. I respect your knowledge of computers and business, but will never respect your foul language nor will I find it generating camaraderie in any way.
Justin
on 20 Aug 08DHH: (” but using profanity for personal enjoyment is another”)
I think it’s interesting to analyze why we do / feel the things we do.
So just to humor me, what exactly causes you to derive enjoyment from the use of profanity? Does it feel edgy? Are you intending to associate / disassociate yourself with certain segments of society? Does it cause a response from your listener(s) that you enjoy?
As an exercise, how would your interaction amongst friends change if you forced yourself to not use profanity for a day? Could it be equally enjoyable?
Even more interesting, could you make your next talk equally captivating, comfortable and passionate as you usually are without the use of profanity?
Mark Richman
on 20 Aug 08This reminds me of Bob Saget…mostly because they roasted him last night on Comedy Central. Saget is one of the dirtiest comics around, and unless you’ve seen his act, you’d never expect it. My opinion of him generally follows the theme of the roast – that being, Saget’s the least funny guy on TV. I tend to agree, and the profanity is clearly a crutch for his lack of wit.
If you can pull it off, take the fucking Lord’s name in vein once in a while. It’s like taking a good long shit that comes out clean.
Don Schenck
on 21 Aug 08Wait wait wait …
“Anonymous Coward” says cursing is immature? Anonymous Coward??? ANONYMOUS COWARD??
HA HA HA HA. Too. Fucking. Funny.
dusoft
on 21 Aug 08Don Schenck: haha, maybe he just fucking forgot :-)
Jared
on 21 Aug 08I think passion definitely helps makes presentations effective and memorable, but being passionate does not require profanity. I bet you can still give great presentations without the profanity if you are still passionate. Plus you will come across less immature and more professional. Of course being passionate without using profanity might be difficult at first…
Mark
on 21 Aug 08Oddly enough though, all your profanity did was spurn more profanity used recklessly and without any of the real warrant you point out in your post.
Stephen G.
on 21 Aug 08I agree with your basic principle: words have a lot of power. We all know that how you say something can be just as important as what you actually say.
But really, the underlying concept you’re describing here is nothing novel. You mention that “profanity can work as a record button for the brain”—so would taking a dump in a jar on stage during your next presentation.
All attention getting techniques have pros and cons—just because someone recalls the words you say does not guarantee that they will associate it favorably with you or the product or position you’re pushing.
If the thought you are expressing requires “fuck” tacked to the front or back to make it stand out in someone’s mind, I think the real problem is with the bad ideas you’re trying to pedal.
David C.
on 21 Aug 08I think the title of this post “Profanity works” is great because it got me to read it. Great post dude. If I may, I’d like to contribute this caveat…
Profanity works as long as you have the personality to back it up.
David, I saw your presentation. You’re confident, you know what you’re talking about and you have charisma. When you curse, it’s cool. This is why people like Gordon Ramsey or John Stewart get away with it too. But a lot people (especially corporate types) don’t have the personality to carry off a properly placed F-bomb in public. For those folks, awkwardness may ensue.
Mark
on 21 Aug 08Bingo.
Emily
on 21 Aug 08Also, as Mark Twain noted: “Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.”
Damon Cali
on 21 Aug 08Nothing carries more impact than a toddler dropping an obscure obscenity. For grownups at work? Words is words.
John H
on 21 Aug 08In other news, sex sells, men like chase scenes and big explosions, children like fuzzy animals and women like BIG DICKS!
Gotcha!
Eherm… Food for thought:
As more and more people use swearing in day-to-day conversation, the shock value wears off.
As the shock value wears off, you’ll have to resort to more and more shocking! behavior to “express yourself effectively”.
Then you have start replacing Art with Marketing Driven Commerce.
Using a gun, doesn’t make you a bad-ass. Using swear words doesn’t make you George Carlin OR Bob Sagget.
Marty Cohn
on 21 Aug 08@Quix – I heard a different version of your quote.
“Profanity is the refuge of inarticulate cocksuckers” – Not so Anon.
Thomas Messier
on 21 Aug 08@Quix
“Ultimately, profanity makes you look (and sound) like a tool.”
Guess that’s a matter of opinion. Some would say that refusal to use profanity makes you look like a tight-ass. I certainly don’t think it has anything to do with being unoriginal, uneducated, or lacking in creativity.
Sean Gallagher
on 21 Aug 08This article is beautiful. I couldn’t agree more… their approach is slightly different, but look how well this office gets along through their common love of profanity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJJL5dxgVaM
But all jokes aside, that ad (made by DDB Chicago for Budweiser) underscores the whole conversation.
Jonathan Olivier Brun
on 21 Aug 08In a letter that Mordecai Richler’s son was writing to a lover, he used the f-word three times. Mordecai, upon reviewing the letter, said, “You should only use the word fuck once, it has more impact”.
Amen.
mark
on 21 Aug 08Couldn’t disagree more. Resorting to profanity is simply a complete lack of creativity.
Keith Dahlby
on 21 Aug 08@Greg re: drinking on the job
Strictly scientific: Ballmer Peak
I hope the irony is not lost on the various commenters trying to squeeze as much profanity (or vulgarity?) as possible into their comments. The point isn’t to offend or see what you can get away with, but rather to communicate a specific idea or emotion as effectively as possible without compromising or reaching for unnatural vocabulary that might come off as supercilious.
Nat
on 21 Aug 08My favorite part of the comments here is the people who drop by to leave a tired and chiding “profanity is for uncreative people” comment, apparently not noticing that the exact same sentiment has been expressed in the comments maybe twelve times already.
Apparently disliking swearing also leaves you entirely unable to appreciate irony.
Silly Goose
on 21 Aug 08Profanity in the workplace is nothing short of immature and unprofessional.
Anyone who agrees with this article is a mindless dote with a sheer lack of mental stamina to muster up something intelligent to say.
Chad Crowell
on 21 Aug 08Couldn’t get through all the comments, so forgive me if someone said it already, but I think the best presentations and talks, and even general high fives are best expressed when you feel you can be yourself. I think people will tune in if they feel they are getting someone’s true feelings and one way to do that is to let your real personality shine through. If you are a cursing man, so be it. If not, that’s great, too.
Kris Khaira
on 21 Aug 08Profanity is fucking immature.
William Smith
on 21 Aug 08This is the exact moment the folks at 37 signals Jumped the Shark. The shear arrogance of your post reveals how you disrespect your audience and your customers. The premise here is that unless your value system accepts crude sexual anglo saxon slang, you should not listen or participate.
There is a great saying in Hollywood “Just because you have a hit doesn’t mean you are a genius.” I for one am gleeful that you are making the same mistake of many other arrogant fools.
JF
on 21 Aug 08William, that’ll mark at least the fourth time we’ve jumped the shark. Once in November of 2005. Another time in March of ‘07. Once more in June of ‘08. And now today!
Mathew Patterson
on 21 Aug 08@JF Maybe you can start putting lasers on the ‘frickin’ sharks to make it more of a challenge.
Loic
on 21 Aug 08Swearing can break the ice in a group when used appropriately.
I use it with students for example… never on the first day, just wait a little.. and do it once.
Keep doing it and it loses its impact. I think Ramsay overdoes it.
I think more than swearing people like straightforwardness.
Robert Einspruch
on 21 Aug 08I almost never use the word “fuck” but can’t stop saying the word “fucking”. I don’t do it to be provocative, profane or call attention. Sometimes it is just the natural adjective or adverb. Maybe DH is on to something.
dan
on 21 Aug 08I would compare using profanity to smoking cigarettes around other people who want to breath clean air. It’s just not classy or courteous. It is too easy to use profanity. So, to me it shows lack of self control/discipline. There are better ways to get attention.
William Smith
on 21 Aug 08Jason, your product is just fine. The reason why it is clear this blog is jumping the shark is that you are posting more and more link bait to your blog. First you publish some posts slamming Apple, which is sure link bait. Now you are planting a flag in the sand stating the F-word is not only good but preferable in business meetings and conferences. Why not politics, religion and abortion? You have some very good and some silly things to say on your blog. Just put a bit of a filter on it. Resorting to desperate measures to build traffic is obvious.
GeeIWonder
on 21 Aug 08There are better ways to get attention.
Indeed. Fauxhawks and fruity cling shirts come to mind. ;)
(j/k as this probably also applies to me)
Gary R Boodhoo
on 21 Aug 08sounds like a lowest common denominator solution to me, but will try it at the design review tomorrow when I refer to my colleagues as “cunts” – you know, just to provide a mental dog ear for my brilliant idea.
What’s next? punching people in the face to get the point across?
Hard Core
on 21 Aug 08Swearing??? You guys are so old school. Where I work we like to reveal the nut sack or the old corn hole to emphasize something. Nothing like a quick flash of skin to activate thinking at a higher level.
Stephen Jenkins
on 21 Aug 08“The reason why it is clear this blog is jumping the shark is that you are posting more and more link bait to your blog.”
I’m sure they are making a fortune off the single Deck ad in the top corner… In some ways, this blog proabably costs them money, they could be “selling” these ideas in a book, or some “customers only” forum. They are sharing to build community, generate discussion, and perhaps gain some new customers. If you don’t like this post, don’t read it.
Sam
on 21 Aug 08Ah, but if you cut off Malchus’ ear, he’ll never be able to hear the Gospel, Peter.
Sam Figueroa
on 21 Aug 08Being offended by profanity is just a self created problem. They are still just words. And what constitues as a profane word changes with culture all the time. Nobody gets offended these days if somebody says ‘breast’. In the 19th century it was just about as ‘offensive’ as ‘cunt’ is today. I’m not saying I accept people throwing around heinous insults to awe others.
Profanity as an expression of personal emotion or passion is totally OK. That’s what they are. Just say it out loud and experience how good it feels.
“Fuck, yeah!”
Nigel Legg
on 21 Aug 08Hugh (I think) Ratner – owner and chairman of a high street jewellry chain – stood up at a Confederation of British Industry Conference to explain the wonderful explosion and growth of his business: “We sell crap.” The TV cameras and news crews were there, it was headline news on all that evening’s news bulletins, and within six months the company had been taken over and the name had gone. No one likes being told that the (admittedly cheap) engagement ring they just bought is crap by the guy they bought it from… there are times and places for profanity.
anon
on 21 Aug 08In the right setting, profanity works perfectly. In the wrong one, folks are going to judge you only for the use of your words.
It would be nice to be able to rid ourselves of the less enlightened…taboos are a refuge for small minded persons who accept everything as it is. I find the word fucking to be less offensive than rape, for instance, because the later implies something violent and nonconsentual vs. something consentual, enjoyable but ultimately crude. But society has deemed fucking to be the worse, and thus even in polite society one can get away with That Restaurant Raped Me With The Bill.
In the end, they are only words. Tools for communication. Words can’t hurt…sentiment can.
Its funny, I am nearing my licensure in the mental field, and even where the educated understand that words are just words—it is still taboo. Society has a hold on us that we can’t let go.
Beyond that, in my day job, I work with a lot of…how do you say…rightwing ‘Christians’. I note rightwing because I don’t find the term Christian to be bad…just folks that seem to attach themselves to specific words in the book that have nothing to do with anything and have been translated a dozen times before arriving at this word and focus solely on the tree and not the forest. (For the record, I attend church regularly…I have the strong belief we read from different books, but it looks the same when I’ve been invited…odd).
In my day job, I have been reprimanded for my use of the vulgar. It is strange, the topics these others bring up are far more offensive to anyone with the slightest of intelligence, yet the term Fucking, as in I’m So Fucking Happy Today, is enough to warrant a talking to by Human Resources. Yet, Fags Must Die seems to be acceptable (a gay friend who complained was told to ‘man up’...that unless ‘they’ stop calling each other this, how can others know what to call homosexuals…ignoring the portion about the ‘must die’ and the implied threats).
Individual words mean a lot to a lot of people. I work in a large organization funded by the local gov’t…even in our policy guides it says that first amendment rights will not be infringed upon so long as it isn’t a threat (implied or implicit) to others. Swearing is actually referenced….one can use it so long as it is not used against others. I’m So Fucking Happy is not a threat, while You Are A Fucking Idiot is considered ‘verbal violence against others’. As noted, this does not mean much…I’ve also found that the right ears hearing this can always claim to be verbally assaulted by the words. Interesting, because one of the individuals physically attacked my in my office and the reality of the situation meant I could not even defend myself (it was a rather large female…politically, a man is in the wrong even if he is only defending himself…and I need this position to be around for another year until I am properly in my new field). For some reason, HR latched onto the fact that while I had two welts on my face—I called this woman a ‘fucking cunt’ AFTER the first blow. They claim that the first slap (followed by throwing my computer off my desk) was unacceptable, but I pushed it further by using language that ‘offended’ this person. This is a highly unstable individual who has been counseled for her actions similar to this before but as it happens outside of the 1-year probationary time she is put on, the previous events are not able to be held against her (union). Almost always ends up with a 3 week suspension and the maximum probation (the last non-union manager that stood up to this was let go the next day).
The point is, instead of focusing on the actions of the others, words are used as the touchstone. Illogically. Profanity and vulgarity has a way of doing this in our society. I believe some vulgarities should be considered offensive for the very fact that they exist…I find the word Nigger to be offensive to the point that if someone references it, I may detach all other meaning from what they’ve said and focus on that word (as some may be doing with this). Should we be allowed to go into a meeting and playfully say ‘Nigger, Please’ when someone says something we disagree with. Around the right persons, it will endear comradity. Should we say that that those that disagree should ‘man up’ and get with the program.
I personally think words have too much meaning attached…then again, they are the principle means of expressing our beliefs and opinions and as such SHOULD have meaning attached. I’ve used a lot less profanity around my office over the last year…and while I believe that within my close group of friends, it is acceptable…it isn’t acceptable to everyone. If even one person is uncomfortable with it, I try not to do so. Nothing to do with ‘professionality in the workplace’...very few workplaces are 100% professional…it is accepting a norm that most of society has accepted and realizing that there are greater battles to be won.
Posting anonymously because I really don’t need certain words attached to my name. Hypocritical, eh?
Tom
on 21 Aug 08Sirs, I do submit for your consideration, according to “NOTE: We’d rather not moderate, but off-topic, blatantly inflammatory, or otherwise inappropriate or vapid comments may be removed. Repeat offenders will be banned from commenting. Let’s add value. Thank you.”
Swearing among the office dwellers seems more of an affectation, like we’re pretending to be loading dock roughnecks or something.
“Regarding your last budget proposal, Balthazar, I’ll just say your cunt of a mother sucks AIDS-riddled nut sack and I’ll fucking break your fucking pencil neck if you fuck with me again. Now, let’s move on to development, where our retarded fucking whores of programmers have lovingly balled the dog, no a multitude of dogs, once again.”
I dunno. Or maybe drunken-fratboy style
“Last months sales were a fucking blowout! Are you with me bro? FUCKING YEEEAAH!”
Or suppressed punk rock breaking out among suburban professionals:
“DON’T LIKE OUR UI?
FUCKING DEAL WITH IT.(slide transition) MOTHERFUCKER.”
Actually, I can’t wait for the Eddie Murphy effect (from Raw) as this spreads to those with a shaky grasp of language. (Imagine a broadly grinning fan on the street imitating his favorite parts of Eddie’s skit): “Hey, Eddie? Fuck you man … ha ha ha ha … Fuck you, Eddie.”
John Topley
on 21 Aug 08Can I submit a patch to Rails to get more profanity in there?
posts = Post.all_my_fucking_records_now!
LKM
on 21 Aug 08@Dhrumil: If I owned a restaurant and Ramsey came to my establishment, I’d have security remove him. Profanity is great, but Ramsey is just a fucking sociopathic asshole who takes pleasure in destroying people who actually do something instead of sitting on their fat asses and criticising everyone. No amount of profanity could possibly make Ramsey any better.
Dylan
on 21 Aug 08@LKM. Actually, I think you’re mistaken. Ramsey doesn’t take pleasure in “destroying people” quite the opposite. Ramsey takes pleasure in seeing people reach their full potential (and in doing so, his own full potential) and if it takes swearing to get through to them so they’ll sit up and take notice – all power to him.
V
on 21 Aug 08Fuck you, David!
Randy
on 21 Aug 08V, you used vulgarity in a fucking derogatory manner!
LKM
on 21 Aug 08@Dylan: If he thinks insulting people, yelling at them and calling them names helps them reach their full potential, he’s even more delusional than I thought.
Don Schenck
on 21 Aug 08@anon – who got hit by a woman:
You failed when you did not charge her with assault and battery. Depending on how recently this happened, you still may.
Violent people need to be charged and - if guilty - convicted and made to pay. Profanity is one thing; violence is a whole ‘nother ball game.
Keith
on 21 Aug 08Come curse in the south.
You’ll have a far different reaction. I’ve heard stories of people getting up and walking out on speakers who cursed. You curse on the phone in the south, expect a click. Around my office there are few greater offenses that cursing in professional life.
That said…David Sedaris always draws a great crowd and nobody walks out on him…so audience and expectation is everything! ;)
Gordon Ramsay
on 21 Aug 08You don’t know the first fucking thing about cursing, David. Your blog drivel doesn’t contain enough profanity to keep me awake after three fucking cups of coffee.
Fuck me.
Catalin
on 21 Aug 08think about “Seven words you can never say on television …” by George Carlin. :)
rapella
on 21 Aug 08There is a chapter on swear words in ‘The stuff of thought’ by Steven Pinker (2007).
Suggest you all read it, ‘tis fucking wonderful
Catalin
on 21 Aug 08A man can be offended by another’s man profanities when his territory is in danger, if you know what I mean ;)
A woman can also be offended by that man when she doesn’t find him attractive; or she can be offended when she finds him attractive, but the social circumstances would not allow her to have that kind of devilish sensations.
Or… finally we’re getting to the climax… she won’t be offended at all, but on the contrary, she’ll get sooo huoooorny like a fucking slut, drolling, itching screaming oh yea :)))))
david in portland
on 21 Aug 08Love the post. It’s right on in so many ways. And, am really shocked by the provincial reaction by some. Are we still in the 1950s?
I haven’t read all the comments and maybe someone has said this already, but profanity connects with a visceral, honest part of ourselves. I lived and worked in Paris for a number of years, spoke French day in and day out, was “fluent” if you can ever really be in a second language, but when I stubbed my toe, screwed something up at work, or really wanted to hate someone, I’d break right into good old reliable English expletives. My brain did this because I was having an authentic reaction right up from my toes and it came best using my mother tongue.
It’s that authenticity of expression that makes profanity useful and appropriate.
Derek
on 21 Aug 08George Carlin would be proud of this post.
bryanl
on 21 Aug 08I’m all about it too. Test All The Fucking Time (TATFT)
My rant last week during the Ruby Hoedown combined with a presentation along the same lines illustrate my point.
rvr
on 21 Aug 08yeah, i don’t think i ever heard a great talk or presentation and thought it was better for the cursing, or worse for the lack thereof.
you like cursing, fine. but this post smacks of rationalization/self-justification. there’s a lot of cursing in some segments of our society, a lot of people find it offensive, we’ll certainly disagree.
the bottom line, for me, is that it doesn’t seem to be dignified. when you behave in an undignified manner among others it fails to honor their dignity.
a good test is how we speak to children, as well as those we revere. if it’s not ok to speak that way to them, why to others? because you see them as less dignified or noble. i can’t think of any other reason.
otherwise, thanks for a lot of good, thought-provoking stuff. i just can’t get with you on this one.
John H
on 21 Aug 08Gee whiz David in Portland, can you please enlighten us some more!
Signed, Lonely in NC
PS STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY PROVINCE
anon
on 21 Aug 08@Don Schenck
“You failed when you did not charge her with assault and battery. Depending on how recently this happened, you still may.”
It had no bearing on the conversation, so I didn’t mention it. As I did mention, I work for a large organization funded by the gov’t. We have our own police force that have the same rights and duties as the state police. With the exception that they report to our president.
My first call was to alert them to what was going on…I was actually blocked from leaving my office unless I wanted to physically harm this person.
I demanded that charges be filed, but I was told to go through HR as it was a “he said, she said”. I actually tried the city police as I wanted to get a restraining order and was told it was not their jurisdiction as the others reported it first.
And again, HR made a bigger deal of my use of profanity than they did the violence…
Profanity is a great thing if you are not around prudes. Occasionally I use it in meetings with others where I need to kick ass…but anymore it is rare and the f-bomb is reserved for when there is a real fuckup that needs to be addressed.
SproutingSeed
on 21 Aug 08Why do people get so offended by words, especially when they are not used in a derogatory way? The ‘f’ bomb, at least to me in a professional situation, says “I’m really passionate about this”. What invokes more passion between “That is amazingly brilliant” or “That is fucking brilliant”? It’s not like saying “Your a fucking loser”. I mean really, it’s just a fucking word. I think the immature ones are the people who get offended by it.
rvr
on 21 Aug 08don’t get me wrong, i think dhh is a great presenter, and i’m not freaked out by the profanity. but it isn’t necessarily “prudish” to not appreciate the swearing, or to disagree about how well it “works”. i don’t know why people should be put down for having a different take on it.
anyway, i always saw it more as a way to broadcast a certain cool/hip vibe, and as part of dhh’s personality, than anything as profound as a well-honed speaking technique. i don’t think he’d lose anything by leaving out the swears.
i also think a lot of people are afraid to disagree for fear of not belonging to the group of people who are cool and hip enough to swear and know how useful it is.
username2
on 21 Aug 08Are there any cussers that are not offended by anything? What offends someone who swears? Does telling you to not use profanities offend you? Are you obscene because you are offended?
Steven Fisher
on 21 Aug 08I agree with both Jonathans above.
I guess maybe if you’re in a company of people who all frequently use profanity outside of work, profanity would be frequently used in the workplace, too. But I use it very infrequently outside of work, and am not about to add it randomly.
Am I offended? Well, I have a coworker who was ignorant in the extreme and used to swear constantly at his computer rather than learn what he was doing wrong. I think there it was a huge warning sign, but I was far more offended at the behavior than the word.
Generally profanity doesn’t offend me. Especially when used rarely enough that it stands out rather than being mere punctuation.
Steven Fisher
on 21 Aug 08I forgot to mention: I find the slogan “We sell fucking shoes!” brilliant, though.
David Andersen
on 21 Aug 08If you live your life in an attempt to avoid offending anyone, you’re not living much of a life. Even Jesus offended people.
Geoff
on 21 Aug 08@ML: “It shows you care about what you’re talking about.” Widespread use of profanity, without regard to the preferences of the people that must listen to it, shows that you care more about expressing yourself than you care about respecting and communicating with your audience.
When someone is listening to you, they are showing you respect. Willfully offending them in an effort to underscore your point is just plain disrespectful.
Would you curse in front of my grandmother? How about my 4 yr old son? If so, you are a hineyhole. If not, then why would you curse at an audience of folks that MIGHT include someone’s grandmother or (probably less likely) a 4 yr old son?
@ David Andersen: “Even Jesus offended people.” Jesus communicated ideas. I don’t believe the surviving transcriptions of his words include profanity.
Anonymous Coward
on 21 Aug 08This article made for a nice Wordle: http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/134613/DavidH%27s_Profanity
David Johns
on 21 Aug 08I think your theory is flawed. I don’t care what the studies show, would you want your 16 year old daughter coming home saying, “Dad you have got to meet my new boyfriend he has the filthiest mouth you have ever heard, wait until you here these great 4 letter words he has been sharing me, and the way he weaves them into our conversations really breaks the tension in the room.” Come on man, get real, profanity is unprofessional and shows a lack of intelligence.
Alan Roth
on 21 Aug 08The note below this comment box seems like a huge inconsistency with your post.
“Let’s add value?”
Use profanity it once and you have used your allotment of shock. After that is just means you are unprepared and have a limited vocabulary.
Andrew E. Clark
on 21 Aug 08David Johns is right on. I couldn’t agree more.
I’d be much more apt to share David’s online presentations with all my friends if they weren’t laced with profanity. When you use profanity, you immediately alienate and limit your audience by a huge, incalculable margin.
Try using creativity INSTEAD of profanity. I personally don’t respect David for this one BIG reason.
Ron Oldham
on 21 Aug 08Profanity?!! The ‘F’ word?
Is that all you’ve got David?
If you really want to get the audience’s attention, try doing what I do: Throw handfuls of feces at the audience whenever you want to grab their attention, accentuate a point or just hit an idea home. It works every time and you’ll have their complete undivided attention. At first, everyone will gasp, flinch and cringe but eventually they’ll begin to get used to it and even start throwing their own feces at each other. I’ve found that this works wonders at the office as well.
Keep up the good work! Great post! You guys rock!
Tess
on 21 Aug 08I agree with the general idea, but you must not live in Utah, where one cannot even say, “Oh my god” without getting the stink eye…
MFLM
on 22 Aug 08Great great post.
Tim Jahn
on 22 Aug 08Hearing someone swear reminds you that they are human. The person is in a way showing that they are on your level.
Sam
on 22 Aug 08Thanks to all who used gratuitous profanity in the comments. I usually quietly peruse the comments for bright designers and developers to work on our companies’ projects.
It’s nice to know in advance who not to hire.
Taylor
on 22 Aug 08Show me some fucking table tennis! Damn you, NBC.
@Sam: nice attitude buddy! I could just as easily say: it’s nice to know in advance who not to work for. Actually, having been on both sides, I think companies should in general be much more grateful to their employees than employees should be to their companies. Just my opinion, of course.
John Langlois
on 22 Aug 08You are a lug head.
See I was able to insult you and grab your attention without cursing.
I love people with passion. And I encourage my team to raise their voice, scream, holler, get emotional, BUT keep the words clean. There’s just no place for the F-word in business. If you throw it around as much as some people did in this post, then it may negatively affect the people around you. If I hear the word 20 times today I may go home and repeat it unconsciously … to my young daughter. Shame on me.
Cursing doesn’t grab my attention. It just demonstrates your lack of command of the English language and lack of creativity in finding ways to grab my attention.
David, you just fell a few notches on my respect meter. Sure you generated a ton of comments to your post, and maybe that is your measure of success, but just remember that great ideas stand as great ideas with our without a colorful adjective/adverb/noun to introduce them. Clean up your act.
JF
on 22 Aug 08Cursing doesn’t grab my attention. It just demonstrates your lack of command of the English language and lack of creativity in finding ways to grab my attention.
What makes those other words better? Why is a curse word inherently less creative than another word?
To my ears “lug head” sounds like a network TV dub-over replacement for “shit head”. And you know how awesome those moments make the movie.
SH
on 22 Aug 08If I hear the word 20 times today I may go home and repeat it unconsciously … to my young daughter. Shame on me.
You know, this sounds like a very plausible argument, except for the fact that it’s wrong. Hearing something all day long doesn’t cause you to start spewing it out “unconsciously” unless you are entirely unconscious of anything else you say all day. If that’s true, then hanging out in a Chinese-owned restaurant would mean one day you’d come home speaking in Chinese to your young daughter.
Secondly, you grabbed our attention with the term “lug head” because it sounds ridiculous, not because it makes a point. Not because it’s a intense display of your feelings, not because a simple word encompasses succinctly your passion for a subject. It’s attention getting because it reflects a self-righteous indignation to not say “swear words” and at the same time do the exact same thing a “swear word” would do.
Seriously, fuck that argument. It’s not going to hold water. Further, complaining that cursing demonstrates a lack of command over a language is entirely misguided. Uncouth, surely, but lack of command of a language? May I remind you that understanding the nuances of a word like FUCK requires great command of language, and great creativity to be used in a way that’s inoffensive and explanatory.
We have people on our team who listen to David and everyone else say fuck fuck fuck all day long, and because they are people who can control their oratory urges, they don’t end up running home and cursing at their children each night. That, dear friend, is a command of the English language.
Geoff
on 22 Aug 08@ SH: “Uncouth, surely, but lack of command of a language? May I remind you…”
I am surprised that you can acknowledge on the one hand that the use of profanity is vulgar, while still trying to argue that it facilitates communication.
I’d really enjoy hearing how you creatively, respectfully, and illuminatingly drop the F-bomb in front of children, your mother, or while enjoying Thanksgiving dinner with your girlfriend’s family.
Regardless, I appreciate the chatter on this topic, because I find it really interesting. A long time ago, y’all had a similar post about clothes at work, and I feel like this subject is just a different side of the same coin: Are clothes and language to be used solely to express opinion and personality, or ought they also be used to show respect and courtesy to the people around you?
SH
on 22 Aug 08I’d really enjoy hearing how you creatively, respectfully, and illuminatingly drop the F-bomb in front of children, your mother, or while enjoying Thanksgiving dinner with your girlfriend’s family.
First of all, Geoff, I don’t have a girlfriend, because I’m a heterosexual female. And because I respect my family and their conservative values, I wouldn’t ever come to the dinner table with profanity on my tongue.
Second, this post has nothing to do with the scene you are creating. Absolutely nothing.
This post is about talking to adults, adults you work with, collaborate with, speak to about business and hash out ideas with. It’s not about speaking to a fucking kindergarten class. If we are all adults, which we hope everyone commenting here can agree with, we all understand the limitations of language. We know that it’s not appropriate to tell a child to fuck off, which is why no one here is talking about that.
But I also know as a person who spent a lot of time in a vacuous, sterile, creative-sucking environment ruled by micro-managers nitpicking about what every employee wears on which days of the week, working for David means I am free to look him in the eye and say, “I think that idea really fucking blows.”
And David will grin and say, “Ok tell me more about what you’re thinking.”
That’s a freedom you could never have in an environment that doesn’t allow passionate expression. I’m a very very lucky girl to have David as my boss, knowing he supports my every fucking idea, no matter how I say it.
bukit
on 22 Aug 08I will say this, regardless of anyone’s stance, this is positively the largest amount of (in many cases extensively written) comments I’ve ever seen appear anywhere on any topic in such a short time.
For fuck’s sake man…
TimTheFoolMan
on 22 Aug 08I can see both sides of the debate. On the one hand, I’ve always tended to agree with what I heard Kent Beck (Extreme Programming and Pattern Programming guru) say the other day that “profanity is generally a sign of a lack of creativity.” No, I don’t think that using the same word as a noun, verb, adverb, adjective… demonstrates a command of the English language. Perhaps more command than that of a gangsta rapper, but that’s about it.
On the other hand, most of what Shakespeare wrote was considered vulgar and lewd at the time of the writing. Largely because of this, I’m reluctant to just dismiss someone’s opinion solely because of their incessant dropping of f-bombs.
A more interesting perspective on this comes from Jerry Seinfeld, in his comments about the lack of profanity (generally) in his stage act. He believes that most stage comedians use profanity on-stage simply because they recognize that it has shock value, and that the shock/surprise component does affect our perception of what’s funny. He steers away from it, largely because it’s “too easy.”
So ultimately, I might excuse a lot of random f-bombing, but I’ll probably give a lot more consideration to the person next to you who doesn’t. Where f-bombs demonstrate a willingness to try for a reaction, getting the same reaction without them probably demonstrates that someone has something more meaningful to say. – Tim
john h
on 22 Aug 08oh please! stop it already!
for crying out loud, would somebody at 37s direct their energy towards helping out humanity! marketing/pr = accomplished.
do something!
stop being so defensive! if you can’t have fun with THIS post, I mean, I meeaann. I’m sittin’ on the bench…
GeeIWonder
on 22 Aug 08What makes those other words better? Why is a curse word inherently less creative than another word?
You’re absolutely right about that. There is nothing inherently less creative about using a curse word. The focus here has sort of been on rather on monosyllabic, four letter expletives,
There’s also nothing inherently less creative about the word ‘like’. But, like, in practice, like, there totally, like, is.
Besides, the argument wasn’t that the word itself is less creative, at least I don’t believe it was. The argument is that using it to garner attention is not creative. I’d say the average age kids realize that it’s a go-to move to grab attention is probably four.
That’s a freedom you could never have in an environment that doesn’t allow passionate expression
That’s like the kids in the coal mine saying that coming to work dirty is a freedom most others could never have. Besides, what is inherently more passionate about curse words?
Think for yourself. Make up your own mind. And if you still agree, great.
Paul Tiemann
on 23 Aug 08This is puerile. Go grab a copy of “What Got You Here Won’t Get You There,” and learn to stop defending your bad habits. I see a lot of mental acrobatics in this attempt to twist vice into virtue and then pat yourselves on the back.
Karl Perron
on 24 Aug 08My personal feelings on the topic at hand aside, we have an employee that indulges in what I call “scifanity”.
Everything is “gorram” this or “frak” that… she even said that she “derezzed” her “fraking” VMs the other day.
Anyway as her expletives are in the spirit of profanity, yet not literally profane, do you think her manager was right in writing her up with HR?
Steven
on 24 Aug 08I’ve found this post an interesting read for my Sunday morning as I watch over my eleven month old daughter. I’ve found the comments even more enlightening.
How to go about all the thoughts running through my head… I went to high school in southern Utah. I think I swore maybe three times in high school. Each of which I instantly regretted. However I am also a very adamant advocate of individual rights (including free speech). I am not offended if someone chooses to curse in or out of work. You’ll rarely find me doing it personally. I feel it is not worth the risk of offending someone. It’s the same reason I don’t participate in racist jokes, talk about religion unless it is commonly interested in, or encourage lewd humor.
I try to keep myself as open-minded towards others as I can. As a result I don’t mind expletives. I just also choose not to use them out of respect to those who aren’t as open-minded as I. I guess I just try not to be offended while still respecting others. I’d hope everyone else would have the decency and courtesy to do that for me as well.
Kevin
on 25 Aug 08How old is this crowd, 15?
Danno
on 25 Aug 08The problem with profanity is that it is emotional. Emotion can be good when there needs to be inspiration, but when you fall to emotional appeal first, it portrays your reasoning as lacking intelligible logic.
If your sound logic is falling on deaf ears, then it would be appropriate to use emotion.
Cormac
on 25 Aug 08“f-bomb” What a silly expression I don’t know how it is elsewhere, but in Ireland (where I live), cursing in front of someone usually means you consider them your equal. It’s like calling someone “dude”
Paul
on 25 Aug 08Hi David,
It’s natural in times of passion or anger to want to push the boundaries of our language to express feelings or sentiments we find difficult to frame in everyday language, but as adults we also have the ability to find more appropriate ways to do this.
I have tremendous respect for 37Signals and for what you’ve all done for the industry, but posts like this give me an uneasy mental image of what the company is really like inside.
I imagine you don’t have “client meetings” as such anymore, which usually require a fair amount of ‘good behaviour’ (for better or worse). Do remember, however, that we, the readers of this blog are more often than not your clients and customers. As such, I find this post just a bit distasteful.
Just my opinion :)
Paul
Anonymous Coward
on 25 Aug 08Ryan
on 26 Aug 08I completely disagree. There are more intelligent ways to add emphasis and get attention. There are a great number of people who are offended at such language (especially the f-bomb) and you’ll never go wrong taking the high road.
A Trooper
on 26 Aug 08Sounds like you have a bigger potty mouth than me
Nate Cavanaugh
on 27 Aug 08It just seems to me that profanity is the lens-flare of the verbal artform. Sure it adds a “catching” quality and CAN be used to great effect, but in reality, how often is it actually used that way, and how often, despite the intentions, does it just come out looking cheap?
As for DHH’s comment that many witty stand up comics use profanity, I would have to disagree, and I think it’s a matter of taste. IMHO, the funniest comedians are the ones who rely on profanity the least, ie. Jerry Seinfeld, Ellen De Generes from years ago, Bill Cosby, etc. And the same goes for musicians.
I think it’s entirely possible to communicate in a way that adds impact without having to fallback to profanity.
But alas, some of the people here seem to be playing some sort of mind game. “I always wonder why people are so offended by profanity” while at the same time saying “Profanity is a good way to shock people into paying attention to what you’re saying”. They kind of go hand in hand.
Nate Cavanaugh
on 27 Aug 08Also, one other quick point:
Haven’t we all been to talks and speeches and sat as everyone in the room was completely fixated on what the speaker was saying, as everyone in the room hung on every word, and yet none of those words were profane?
Isn’t this post the equivalent of saying: “When I’m not able to keep people interested in what I am saying, and off my game, I like to throw some shocking language out there to wake people up”?
Wouldn’t nudity, whether onscreen, or in person, work as well? Heck, wouldn’t just farting or vomiting on stage grab peoples attention too?
Smelly Coward
on 27 Aug 08I’m totally against profanity. Don’t need it. Nothing gets an audience’s attention more than a good and loud fart!
This discussion is closed.