Like everyone, I’ve been reading a lot about the troubles at the Big Three automakers. A lot of recovery ideas have been thrown around. Higher fuel standards, new designs, fewer model lines, new management, consolidation, bankruptcy, etc.
While some of these proposed solutions could have a positive impact, I want to talk a bit about something I haven’t heard discussed much: The dealership buying experience.
In the web world there’s a lot of talk about the customer experience. Discussions about usability and profitability and success always seem to swing around and point at the overarching customer experience: How’s it feel to browse, research, and buy something on a site? How’s the experience?
Dealerships
I like cars. Over the past few years I’ve probably been to 15 dealerships. I’ve checked out and tested out a lot of cars: German, Japanese, British, Swedish, and American. I’ve had a lot of customer experiences to think about.
Without exception, I’d put the American car dealerships at the bottom of the customer experience pile. The dealerships have been dirtier, the desks have been messier, the decor has been older. The dealerships themselves feel like used cars. I’ve also found the sales tactics pushier and the salespeople’s interest and knowledge about the cars lacking.
Unrelated but relevant: Have you been into an Audi dealer lately? Beautiful. Modern, airy, clean, welcoming, warm, lots of natural light, light wood floors, lots of room to move around. Go into an Audi dealership sometime then walk over to the local Cadillac dealer.
In the market
Recently I was in the market for an off-road friendly truck/SUV-like vehicle. I checked out the Toyota FJ Cruiser, the Honda Ridgeline, and the Jeep Wrangler. I ended up buying the Wrangler because it was the best fit for what I wanted/needed, but let me talk about the dealership experience.
First I went to the Jeep dealer. I ended up going to two different dealers. Both dealers gave me incorrect information on engine options. Basic stuff like horsepower. When I went to sit down at the salesperson’s desks, they were generally messy, unkept, and layered with stuff, post-it notes, and torn paper. The drop ceilings were low and the lighting felt very artificial. Everything looked worn out and marginally neglected. It wasn’t a comfortable setting to do business.
The Toyota dealers was modern, busy, and clean. The salespeople were dressed similarly as if someone thought about their presentation. The interior was thoughtful and comfortable (brick paver floor, exposed wood rafters, etc). It was a welcoming well lit space. Unlike the Jeep dealer, the Toyota dealer didn’t feel cramped. The Jeep dealership packed the cars inside so you could barely browse without looking at a car. The Toyota dealer gave you room to stroll. The salespeople were only marginally better than the Jeep people, but at least their desks were clean and presentable.
I also went to two Honda dealers. Both felt youthful in the most positive sense. There was an energy there. People who were looking at cars wanted to be there looking at Hondas. And the salespeople seemed to want to sell Hondas. The sales staff was lively and eager without being pushy. Like the Toyota dealer, the showroom was open and airy with a high ceiling. A good deal of natural light streamed through large windows. I didn’t feel rushed. I still wasn’t that impressed with the actual salespeople, but they did give me correct information.
In the end I bought a used Jeep Wrangler from a Ford dealer. The salesman was nice and he went out of his way to help me with a special request, but his desk was a mess and the walls of the dealership looked like they hadn’t been cleaned or painted in a decade. The bland grey 12×12” tiles on the floor were badly worn and probably didn’t look much better when they were freshly installed. Everything just felt second rate.
This matters
Of course everyone’s experience varies. One or two dealerships doesn’t make an entire franchise, but the difference between the brands was obvious. At Toyota and Honda it felt like someone cared. I could see the thinking that went into the design. On the other hand, the Jeep and Ford dealers felt like repurposed rooms. I could have been in any office building. There was nothing memorable about it. It didn’t feel like anyone was thinking about the entrance experience, the browsing experience, the informational experience, or the actual sit-down-and-consider-buying experience.
This matters. It has a big impact — especially in a highly competitive business. The American dealerships feel old, the Japanese felt young. The American dealerships were dirty, the Japanese dealerships were clean. The American dealerships were dark and dingy, the Japanese dealerships were well lit (mostly natural light) and airy. These buying conditions matter. They matter when you shop for food, the matter when you shop for electronics, they matter when you shop for clothes, and they matter when you shop for cars.
The Big Three have a lot of work to do on their products, but they’d be wise to do a lot of work on the showrooms as well. Better products in a bad store won’t make their problems go away.
Gary
on 04 Dec 08Um, but you bought from the ford dealer – surely the message here is that all that stuff is superficial and had no effect on the purchase?
JF
on 04 Dec 08Gary: I bought the used Jeep from the Ford dealer because they were the only ones that had the specific model with the mileage I wanted. The experience was terrible and had someone else had the car I would have purchased it elsewhere.
A Jeep is a unique vehicle too. Most of the Big Three’s cars aren’t unique—there are lots of alternatives. The public is clearly buying the alternatives.
Gary
on 04 Dec 08Ok fair enough, might be worth mentioning that next time as my first thought was – “what the hell, but he bought from the American dealer anyway”
Thomas H. Ptacek
on 04 Dec 08You know that the Big Three don’t actually own their dealerships, right? That, in fact, state franchise laws prohibit car manufacturers from owning dealerships? That the dealerships are already hugely pissed off at the Big Three for killing unprofitable brands (which screws the dealerships that invested in them)?
This isn’t a “Getting Real” problem that Ford or GM flubbed; it’s a symptom of a systemic problem that will be ugly to fix.
Jeff Hobbs
on 04 Dec 08I’ll go one further. I wish they would get rid of dealerships entirely.
What I’d like to see is a place where you could test drive the car, look at photos and color swatches, and then sit down at a touch screen and order it up. I don’t want to haggle. I don’t want to interact with anyone. I just want a car.
Brian
on 04 Dec 08In the past six months I bought two new cars, one a Chevrolet and one a Lexus. I agree with your perception on these dealers.
But more than that, I totally dreaded going to either dealership at all. I was prepared, had the cash to pay, was well informed, did my research on current prices being paid, etc. But even with all this knowledge, the buying experience at dealers in general are just horrible. Pushy, lots of game playing, walking to the tall counter in the back 6 or 7 times, trying to show superficial monthly payments, etc.
If they had an Amazon.com for cars, I would have gladly purchased online and had it delivered.
Bob
on 04 Dec 08If you really want to be provocative, consider what the car shopping experience be like we eliminated the dealer altogether?
Fumin
on 04 Dec 08I had the same buying experience last year, I ended up buying a new civic. Since auto makers don’t own the dealership, they still set standard and stuff right?
The Urbanophile
on 04 Dec 08Dealers cannot be eliminated since laws in all states prohibit manufactures from selling cars directly. Also, car dealers have historically been very powerful players in local politics and have gotten state legislatures to pass franchise laws that empower them at the expense of the OEM’s. The Big Three have only limited powers over their dealers. They can’t terminate a franchise agreement either. Part of the problem they face is a huge excess supply of dealers, but there is no way to prune it except to let the market force weak dealers out of business (already happening) or paying big money to the dealers to buy them out.
One step the feds should take, bailout or no, is to federalize the car business by using its interstate commerce powers to blow away these restrictive state laws.
Reboot
on 04 Dec 08As a contrast, When I bought a Subaru from the local VW/Audi/Subaru shop, the experience was wonderful.
I dreaded going into a dealer, due to their obnoxious , high-pressure tactics. The one I went to knew the cars sold themselves and so was able to spend the time addressing any concerns I had, rather than trying to make their solution fit my problem.
That added the Getting real flavor to the experience.
J
on 04 Dec 08Sounds like another example of too much regulation getting in the way here. And now Congress wants even MORE regulation. Who can do this who can’t do that.
Jim
on 04 Dec 08unkempt, not unkept
ido
on 04 Dec 08I worked for Mercedes-Benz (MB) in Europe. Interesting story about used cars: A MB dealer made made some experiments/analysis and discovered that selling used cars in the MB dealership was less successfull than selling them to a “not branded” dealership. People believes (implicitly) that when you buy a car in a “not branded” dealership you make a better deal as you do not pay for marketing and “standards” required by the Brand (cool offices, design of the building, etc.). The conclusion: All the used cars were sold in a more simple building next to the branded dealership. The building looked like an other company (other name, logo, etc.) but were from the same company.
Russell Healy
on 04 Dec 08I highly recommend the book “The Machine that Changed the World.” It clearly presents how lean product development and production principles – which just happen to have arisen out of Japan, but can be applied anywhere – enable organizations to produce better quality product at lower cost, with more variety and customer focus. A big part of lean is understanding customer needs, “walking in the customers’ shoes” in order to be able to deliver value, and dealerships are obviously the crucial link with customers.
To make a real difference, the US government needs to understand lean, and provide the right incentives to make it happen, rather than bail out manufacturers operating on uncompetitive models of yesteryear.
Geoff
on 04 Dec 08Your point gets totally lost considering you chose the lousy experience. I understand you had specific needs, most buyers do. You simply outweighed the lousy experience with your needs just like a million other people do every month.
The problem is holistic and unsolvable IMO. If it wasn’t clear before the debacle on Capital Hill it sure is now after we see how out of tune and reactionary the big 3 are.
Anonymous Coward
on 04 Dec 08You simply outweighed the lousy experience with your needs just like a million other people do every month.
If the American car manufactures were kicking ass I think you’d have a point, but they aren’t. They are getting fucking killed. So a million other people aren’t picking American- they are picking foreign cars because the cars AND the buying experience is better.
Daniel
on 04 Dec 08Can’t speak to the American car-buying experience, but I was recently in Berlin with friends, and looked for a café/restaurant around lunchtime. We ended up eating at a very nice, very modern place (Mövenpick-branded), which was actually part of a “car house” that sold Volkswagen, Seat, and – surprisingly – Bugatti (sidenote: yes, they had a Veyron on display – it is the awesomest car I’ve ever seen up close). Yes, it was a little weird to have lunch in a car dealership, but very interesting. Everything was very clean and new, service was good, and it was a fun experience to sit and look at cars during your lunch. Not that I was in the market.
Also:Well… if you’re browsing in a car dealership, wouldn’t you want to look at cars? (I know what you mean, but it’s still fun quote)
Robert
on 04 Dec 08The Urbanophile has a good point, at what point should market pressure be allowed to work its magic?
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08You mention that “one dealership does not make the franchise,” but my experiences with local dealerships are very much the same. Most of the bigger Honda dealers have built new buildings…same with VW and so on.
But looking at this from another angle…when it comes to a car, you want what you want. You go through the same BS paperwork whether you’re in a beautiful showroom or a double-wide mobile unit.
The only way to really change the car-buying experience is to implement a radical technological change…or at least change the steps you have to go through to buy a new car.
Imagine if all new dealerships were simply “test drive outlets.” No lots with 100s or 1000s of cars. Just a couple cars per model…all fitted with a DVD screen that plays an interactive video showing you all the features and options available on that particular model while your sitting in the car…a total hands-on buying experience. You test drive the V-6 or the V-8 (or the hybrid), and then you order what you want. Hand-delivered to your house for a small fee.
Oh, to dream.
Matt
on 04 Dec 08I agree with Jeff Hobbs. I, for one, don’t even really understand the point of the (independent) dealerships.
Couldn’t the car manufacturer make more money by cutting out the middle-men and selling directly to the customers?
Matt Brown
on 04 Dec 08My experiences agree with what Jason is saying. I took my girlfriend to a Ford dealership not too long ago. The salesman was nice as can be while we spent about 2 hours test-driving cars. He talked about his family and only had nice things to say. Fast forward later on when we were in his office running the numbers. He gave them to us and my girlfriend NICELY stated that she would like to sleep on it, but that she was about 95% sold on one of the cars. This is when salesman turned into Lucifer. His body language was jittery, he had a fake smile on his face and you could tell he didn’t want us walking out of there without buying a car. This is when he said the unthinkable: “You know, I spent a lot of time with you today; time I COULD OF been spending with other clients…” Yeah, that was the final nail in his coffin – no sale from us and I filed a complaint with his boss – who, in return never replied to me with an apology. That’s not to mention, the dealership felt like being in a YMCA locker room.
Now contrast that with Audi. I’ve had mine for about three years – I have YET to pay for an oil change – and they only use synthetic – everything is covered under the warranty. The building is ultra-modern and new; they offer me bottled water while I wait. There’s high speed internet and a flat panel tv on the wall. Even the magazine rack has stuff I’m interested in, like INC. and Fast Company. The managers there know me by first name and always do a great job.
The difference is crystal clear.
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08Just an aside…what was the car company that made those little smiley face stickers awhile back? They said something to the effect of “Don’t bother me…I’m just looking.” As long as you had that sticker on you, the salesmen were not allowed to speak to you other than “Hi, welcome to so and so.”
JF
on 04 Dec 08when it comes to a car, you want what you want. You go through the same BS paperwork whether you’re in a beautiful showroom or a double-wide mobile unit.
I disagree. Most people comparison shop when it comes to cars. They check out a few cars from a few brands in the same class. If a dealership doesn’t make them comfortable they will weigh that in their decision. When American cars are already at a disadvantage, a dirty dealership will most definitely hurt.
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08As Gary pointed out earlier, you opted for the Wrangler. When it was all said and done, it was what you wanted. If I were the type of person that actually let a salesman determine what car I drive, I would let my wife do my car shopping for me.
In all fairness, that’s not to say that I wouldn’t go across town and buy the Wrangler from a competing Jeep dealer.
ToddZ
on 04 Dec 08Just a side note that this matters in more ways than the buying experience—it matters to the employment experience as well. Employers who want happy, enthusiastic, effective workers, whether at car dealerships or any other business, should consider the motivation and retention effects of the working environment.
I’ve worked before at offices that exuded young, clean, bright and airy. I’m currently in an old, dirty, dark, dingy facility that both reflects the character of the company and affects my motivation to get up every morning.
These working conditions matter.
Derek
on 04 Dec 08We run a company that sells a web app for dealerships. I wont go into details about the software but I will tell you a bit about how dealerships un(work).
They run in complete opposite to getting real. There is no unity; employees are literally pitted against each other.
If a sales person want to sell a customer an accessory for his car he must first (Buy) that accessory from parts department. And if the customer wanted it installed, then the Parts guy has to (buy) the installation from the service department.
You see each department sells internally to the other and each is trying to eek out their own profit.
To make things worse this seems to be the way it works all the way from the top down. A Manufacturer sells the cars to the dealers who in turn sell it to you.
Every one is in business for themselves, there is no unity.
That I believe, more than anything else, is why car dealerships are so poor with customer service.
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08Jason:
Let me revise by saying this… You want what you want, but the “buying experience” can, in some ways, alter what you want. That’s Marketing 101…strong brands sell products. But at the end of the day, if you want the black Wrangler with rag top, mud tires and the nice rims with only 15K miles, you’re going to go buy it. NOT getting it because the dealership was dirty or because the salesman was an asshole is pretty foolish.
Megan
on 04 Dec 08I had a really bad experience at a Ford dealder when I bought my car about 5 years ago. The dealer took us (me and my mom) into his office. His desks were covered in candy dishes. Little bowls with any kind of candy you could imagine. Weird.
Then he took out the brochure and showed us which colours the car came in. Because, you know, that’s all women care about :p. We got out of there pretty quick.
We ended up concentrating on the Japanese dealers because of their reliability ratings. At both Honda and Toyota we didn’t feel like we were being treated differently as women. The negotiation process was a lot more straightforward. My mom was worried that we wouldn’t get as good a deal as a man could but I think we did well. (she was just with me because I was recently in a car accident BTW)
In retrospect, I think the Honda dealership was the best designed but at the same time it felt a bit expensive compared to Toyota & Ford. I felt more comfortable at Toyota. I think that’s one thing you would want to keep in mind – is this environment going to feel too posh for the target audience? If you’re selling cheap cars you probably want your dealership to reflect that in some way. It can be well designed but still feel inexpensive. On the other hand, if you were seling luxury vehicles you would want the environment to reflect that as well.
Micheal
on 04 Dec 08Saab dealerships are typically very nice.
Unfortunately, GM is talking about selling/dropping Saab.
Erik J. Barzeski
on 04 Dec 08Another vote for “you lost the message” when you bought from the worst of all dealers just because of your needs.
Also, another vote for “eliminate dealerships altogether.” The first car company that can somehow put together a reasonable BTO option could very well take over very quickly.
Nutheory
on 04 Dec 08The Big three remind me of a old simpsons episode where homer is hired by his long lost uncle herb to design a car for the “average American”. So homer builds the car around his idea of the perfect car (big gulp cup holders, wider seats, wings on the side, a dome for the diver, etc.).
It was complete tunnel vision, its like the big 3 thinking every american is a boat towing nascar fan or a rich soccer mom. i have a feeling they thought this way because SUV’s were the thing they knew how to do right, mainly due to thats all they seem to put effort into.
bigger and stronger VS performance and effeciency
5.4L huge engines VS smaller engines of equal horse power
and Diesel VS alternative energy
Lita Kaufman
on 04 Dec 08I couldn’t agree with you more about American car dealerships.
In 1998 I purchased my first, factory new car. On the strength of my parents’ good experiences, I ordered the car through a local Cadillac/Oldsmobile dealership and “worked” with a salesman that my folks recommended. While the dealership floor was clean and brightly lit, it was certainly dated. The saleman’s desk was filthy – the office hadn’t seen a dustrag in about 10 years, and the stink from the overflowing ashtrays made me gag. Once I told the guy I was paying cash, and not financing – he lost complete interest in my business. I also took the time to read through the actual sales contract – and he sat there, impatiently tapping his pen on the desk and sighing. In the interval between my order and the delivery from the factory (about 10 weeks), I had a few questions – but the guy would never return my phone calls. I ended up calling GM and registering several complaints. As an apology, they sent me a letter telling me that GM/Olds was giving me a Steuben glass bowl – but I needed to go to the dealership to pick it up. I went, with the letter and the salesguy still refused to talk with me. I spoke to his manager, who could not locate the bowl. It seemed that the mailroom turned the package over to the salesguy since I was his “customer,” and when the manager asked him about it, he said that he never saw any package. GM/Olds ended up sending me an Amex giftcard for $200 as a replacement.
My car still took another 3 weeks to come in, and when I finally got the call to come pick up my new car, I was at the dealership at 10am the next day. When I got there, the moron started shreiking at me that there was no way I could expect to get my car for at least another three days. I walked into the manager’s office, told them that if I couldn’t get my car before the end of the day, I was cancelling the contract and forfeiting the $100 deposit. Of course, I got my car in about an hour – but GM lost a customer for good.
Contrast this with my Audi experience – last year (about this time) I ordered an A4 Avant. Although I knew that it would take about three months for delivery – my salesguy called me with a status report every three weeks. When I mentioned that I hoped my car would be ready for pickup on my birthday (it was a day late), he got a birthday cake for me and everyone in the dealership sang Happy Birthday when I arrived to get my car.
I love going to the Audi dealership/service center – it’s clean, bright, comfortable. There’s free coffee, water and soda, plus fresh bagels and fruit in the mornings for people waiting for their cars being serviced. I never have a problem with getting a loaner – even just for an oil change. The whole operation reeks of class and customer commitment.
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08Derek:
I had the opportunity to visit the Toyota North America’s corporate headquarters a few years ago for a series of client meetings. The building reminds me of a hotel…each floor is a huge concourse of completely open office space. From the edge of the concourse, you can see all the way from the first floor to the top floor.
The PRESIDENT of TMMNA shares a common desk among all the other employees on the (third?) floor.
I don’t about Toyota’s “unity” when it comes to dealerships, but they definitely have a different idea of “team” at the corporate level.
Hate their cars, though. :\
Derek
on 04 Dec 08Man do I want an Audi now, does any one have anything bad to say about them. Oh that’s right I can’t afford one.
Well maybe when I’m rich ;-)
Don Schenck
on 04 Dec 08Jason, what you say is spot on.
I love cars. It’s a totally irrational emotion, but I do.
If I were ambitious, I’d open a dealership with great interior design, hire kind and effective people and fire those who aren’t and make millions.
I mean, really … look around. How hard could it be to win in the current environment? Domestic dealerships are like 70’s avocado-green appliances and paneled living rooms.
People: When buying a car, either use Citibank’s service or use the fleet manager. Seriously.
Derek
on 04 Dec 08@ CJ
I have to say my Toyota dealership here is fantastic on their customer service. (I have 2)
It seems obvious to me that there was a difference from the top down. In fact in Canada anyway (not sure about the states) Toyota has a no haggle price. The sticker price is the price. I have to say for me that alone made a huge difference.
My sales(wo)man became more like a guide than a sales person.
My previous comment was mostly aimed at the Big 3.
Don Schenck
on 04 Dec 08@Derek: They’re ugly.
That help?
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08Derek:
I once rode in a $25K Audi in which the front seat would not go up far enough for me to even begin to extend my legs.
And I’m 5’10”. Does that help?
Randy
on 04 Dec 08There was an article on edmunds.com a while back where one of the writers went undercover working as a salesman for a couple dealerships, domestic and foreign. It’s a good read into the workings and behind the scenes of the dealerships and sales people. Also mentioned was that you can buy a car online from many dealers and avoid the floor sales people all together.
Confessions of a Car Salesman, http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html
Zach
on 04 Dec 08About eight years back my mom bought a new minivan to replace her Voyager. Voyager was falling apart, maintance service was useless (one of the sliding doors failed, wipers got fixed about 3 times… etc.) Replacing it with a new Honda Oydessy was a wonderfull experiance. The salesman was taken with my little sister (about 4? at the time) and gave her a nice blanket (after we closed the deal, but still.) We haven’t really been back for anything but routine maintance, but they have Otis Spunkmyer cookies there. That says it all.
Its also astoundign that the Honda has those ridiculous self opening sliding doors, and… they haven’t broken.
kyle
on 04 Dec 08darn. i thought this post was going to be about how much money dealers are wasting by having hundreds of cars on their lots. what they need to do is have representative models on the lot, and then have cars made to order. people can wait a week or two.
that said, i may be in the minority, since i can’t stand the thought of owning/maintaining a car.
Kyle Maxwell
on 04 Dec 08Car companies already have those “build your own” Flash apps on their websites, allowing you to spec out exactly the vehicle you want.
But then, due to the backwards business model (now enforced through protectionist legislation), I can’t just click on a BUY button and select a day for home delivery. We live in 2008, not 1958, and a core part of the economy and commerce needs to reflect that.
This doesn’t even begin to address the pricing issue with different people paying vastly different amounts for the exact same vehicle.
Jason Zimdars
on 04 Dec 08I had a very similar experience when I went to buy my last car. The American dealers and any dealership in an “auto mall” format were terrible.
But the Volkswagen dealership was great. Our local dealer is family-owned. The showroom is clean, modern, and bright. Most of the people I spoke with from the sales people to service techs actually owned a VW. The sales manager I bought from was into modding VW’s. Not only were they pleasant to work with, but the sales manager gave a price that was within $500 of the best possible price (I’m a heavy researcher) without argument and got the exact model I wanted shipped in from another dealer.
The best part? When I go in every 5K miles for regular service it’s the same people at the service counter. Heck, I bought my GTI over 4 years ago and I still see the salesman that sold it to me there. I think that says a lot about how they run that dealership.
Oh and VW’s are beautifully designed cars.
Lysonne
on 04 Dec 08We purchased a Yukon Denali used from the GMC dealer back in April.
Contrary to typical car dealer experiences sited, ours was different. The salesman and managers were polished and polite. The showroom was clean and organized. We left our old van there and took the Yukon home for the night. We were sold on the vehicle. We found the right car for our large family.
The haggle process is the part that is the least enjoyable. Luckily, we were spared most of that. We made an offer that was fair, they accepted, that was that. For a change, I didn’t have to spend more time buying the car than selecting it.
The transaction was smooth and low-stress.
I don’t think I’m alone in the distaste for the haggle. You usually walk away feeling like you got screwed. I can’t see how that can possibly be good for business.
Marcos Wright Kuhns
on 04 Dec 08I just heard an NPR piece yesterday morning about how the sheer number of Big Three dealerships hurts the dealerships’ margins which eventually can translate to sub-par facilities. Definitely worth a listen.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97735187
Tony B
on 04 Dec 08I somewhat can agree…
I switched from having three fords in a row (Well, Mercury, Ford, then Ford.) and went to a Toyota.
Part of it was practical. I drove my partner’s Camry for a while and found it to be a nice car, albeit overpriced for what I needed.But ultimately what sold me was when I went to the dealership and the treatment I got.
At the Ford dealership, I actually went into the outdoor lot, browsed around, and then three times had someone paged for me to talk to. After nearly 45 minutes of standing around, I left. My grandfather was a Ford mechanic for 30 years, so I felt I had to get a Ford, but not if I was going to be ignored.
I went to the Toyota dealer near my house and within minutes, I had someone who had given me their business card and while somewhat pushy, did leave me alone when I asked to browse.
I ended up with a Toyota as they paid attention to me, instead of treated me as a number.
As for my grandfather? He stopped giving me grief about five years ago from my purchase when I hadn’t had a single major problem with the car in the five years I’d had it. (Up to 10 years now with no major issues. knock on wood Never had anything close to that in any of the Fords.)
Keith
on 04 Dec 08This seems like a lot of gross generalization. Consider the average age of dealerships in the United States. You’ll find that, by far, the Big 3 have the oldest average age. Of course you’re going to find linoleum floors, wood paneling and aging 1970s industrial design all over the place! The margins on vehicles they sell is low enough where capital improvements for even moderate volume dealerships can take decades.
So I think when you take the aesthetics out of the question you’ve got a defensible position. Dealership satisfaction should come down to 3 questions:
1. Were the sales people you dealt with knowledgeable about everything from the stock, to the models, to the purchasing experience (including current regional promotions)?
2. Did the dealership make you feel like valued customer? (Meaning, did they greet you promptly, offer you respectful service, and follow-up without being pushy?)
3. Were the cars on the lot in excellent condition (clean, easily accessible, & well labeled?)
I can tell you that in the Detroit area my experiences at American auto dealers has been top notch. From little rural Ford dealers to the big warehouse style GM dealers I always felt like the experience was outstanding.
In the Raleigh area it is only because I’m a loyal American car buyer that I continue to buy Fords. Every single American car dealer were absolutely awful in every respect. From disrepectful, pushy, and uninformed sales people to the woeful conditions of car lots. I dread taking my wife’s lease back in a few months… That said, I’ve always been extremely happy with the product.
Bad product experiences + bad buying experiences would probably drive me away though. THAT should be the scary fact about all this for American car companies.
Daniel Gibbons
on 04 Dec 08I disagree about Audi, but maybe the Canadians are just behind the US here. I went to an Audi dealership this weekend to check out the new A4 wagon. Very pushy sales people and overall the experience just felt phony and contrived. Not to mention that the sales guy kept insisting that Audis now handle and steer much better than BMWs. Be passionate about your product, but stress the things that are actually true.
Worse still was BMW… It was like going back 20 years and being in the most cliched used car salesman hell. “I’m not allowed to print the price quote for you” was one gem. And after I said I wouldn’t touch an X3, they tried to get me to buy… an X3, in an awful colour that had clearly been sitting unsold on the lot for months.
But the prize goes to VW. The salesperson there tried to get me to buy a Jetta wagon with the 2.0T engine, even though such a car doesn’t exist in Canada. He wouldn’t believe me when I told him that the car is not sold in Canada. To the dealership’s credit, though, as I was leaving the manager came running out to apologize.
It’s tough if you know a lot about cars. Most sales people at all dealerships have very basic product knowledge so it’s painful hearing them get 50% of what they’re telling you wrong.
Mr. Bookman
on 04 Dec 08Please forgive my unsolicited criticisms, I am merely trying to improve things around here.
Jason, this post is written in a horrendously poor manner. You need to do a bit more concentrated writing and careful editing, before hitting the ‘publish’ button. For example, please tell me what does this sentence, quoted verbatim from your post, mean:
“The salespeople were dressed similarly as if someone thought about their presentation.”
Furthermore, what is the closing sentence supposed to mean (again, quoting verbatim):
“Better products is a bad store won’t make their problems go away.”
I read here that you were shopping for a big ass publisher, meaning you are dreaming about writing a national bestseller. Well, with the extremely weak writing abilities, as demonstrated in this post, you stand pretty good chances in today’s poorly educated market.
Still, just because your writing style seems to resonate well with the slower crowd, doesn’t mean that decently educated people do not cringe when they attempt to read your prose.
Please don’t take this as an insult; rather, see if you can work on improving your grammar and your writing style. You sometimes have interesting things to say. Now please work on articulating your thoughts in a more palatable manner.
Darrel
on 04 Dec 08How about they just get rid of dealerships? Sell direct to customer.
I love Honda. Hate the dealership. Just let me stop by to test drive, then let me finish it all online.
Amazon.com >> Cars >> one click ordering.
Dealerships are not consumer friendly. Selling the car is the least of their goals. They want to sell the warranty, floor mats, extended rust protection, fabric protection, etc.
Anonymous Coward
on 04 Dec 08I read a book recently (The Culting of Brands) that discussed how Saturn the company grew from almost an identical mindset. Too much pressure in dealerships, lack of a humanized experience, and a lack of devotion (internally) to the company. To combat this, they created a new brand (Saturn) with an entirely new mindset. No commission on cars – salary instead – incredible focus on the consumer, not the bottom line, ect. Saturn had a phenomenal growth in its early years with an incredible loyalty. Why didn’t they apply this more directly to the rest of the company I’m not sure
Also, Mr. Buzzkillington above me… ease up—you understood what was said, and to nitpick apart every last detail would completely destroy any sense of real communication and discussion.
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08Mr Bookman:
Are we talking about cars, or is this an English class? Judging from your forced writing style, I don’t think you’re impressing anyone yourself.
CJ Curtis
on 04 Dec 08Buying a car online is still a scary proposition for most people. I very rarely buy CLOTHES online. Before I get the Lands End shirts with my logo on them, I find them at Sears to see what they’re like, how they fit, etc..
If I could see ALL the options that apply to me during a test drive…maybe.
kyle
on 04 Dec 08i wish congress would take all these bailouts and use the money instead as tax incentives for people to live in denser populations (cities), rebuild our public transportation systems, and generally move us away from driving as much as we do.
Grover
on 04 Dec 08Hmmm…I recognize some of your experiences, but came to completely different conclusions personally. For example, the local Toyota dealership here does indeed have a nice, new showroom, a well-dressed salesforce, and and all around nicer physical presence. They are also the sleaziest car dealership in town, and will do absolutely anything to get you to buy the most expensive car they can. To relate it back to interface design, they are the fancy transparent menus and swooshy effects slapped on top of the same crappy experience.
Also relevant are the experiences in Edmunds.com’s Confessions of a Car Salesmen. They sent a reporter to get a job as a car salesman undercover. His first job was with a “high-volume, high-pressure dealership selling Japanese cars” and the second was with a “smaller car lot that sold domestic cars at “no haggle” prices.”
The basic conclusion is that the japanese lot sold way more cars because they cajoled people into buy cars they didn’t want or need, often by simply lying to the customer. And the domestic car company, who’s focus was giving the customer a relaxing, low pressure experience, sold drastically fewer cars.
And as the comments to this article reflect, it’s the fear of getting screwed by the salesman that is the most unpleasant aspect of buying a car, much more so than the lighting or signage. The expense involved make price and value a lot more important here than in, say, an OS or a web app. Leaving the dealership feeling like you got good price on a reliable car is without question the most important factor of customer satisfaction with a car.
And for the record, I’m not defending the domestics. I’ve actually never owned a domestic car in my life because the cars themselves have sucked. It seems a shame that they’re about to collapse just when they’re starting to turn things around though (especially Ford, which has the most compelling lineup I’ve seen from them in a decade).
Brett Atkin
on 05 Dec 08I hate to throw a monkey in the wrench, but I haven’t seen good service at a dealership since my first new car purchase (a Chevy in 1997). That’s from Ford all the way to Porsche. As far as appearances go, foreign made cars have a much nicer “experience”, but the process and the salespeople still failed miserably. Here’s a couple of examples. I purchased a Ford Escape with cash and it still took 3 hours to take delivery. My brother got literally turned away from a Mercedes dealership. He wasn’t wearing his Sunday best and arrived in his beater truck. He purchased an M3 convertible. He traded it about a year later because the service was so bad. My dad recently purchased a 911. I went into the dealership a couple of times to checks things out. I was completely ignored by the Porsche salespeople but the Audi salespeople about fell over themselves to talk to me. The service department for my wife’s Honda has been outstanding. In the end, I think it is about who owns the dealership, not who makes the cars. One final rant to any salespeople reading this…take some time to read the frik’n brochures on your cars and don’t point out the obvious (it makes me think your stupid or makes me think you think I’m stupid)...
aunt_jemimah
on 05 Dec 08goddam this blog is insulting. really, jason? you think the industry needs a lesson from a web desiger about the ‘buying experience’...
the 37signals egos are on a roll. putting a dent in the universe and schooling the automotive industry in a single week. i can’t wait for what’s next.
keep on keepin’ it real, fellas.
Kevin Richards
on 05 Dec 08If your business/web site was a car dealership what manufacturer would it be?
Chris
on 05 Dec 08You have good dealers and bad dealers. It all really depends on who owns the group. Tell you what—these days all you need to do is pick out the car you want (online), begin a conversation with the dealership, and line up financing. It’s really that easy.
Honda and Toyota have extremely rigorous branding guidelines. If you visit a Toyota or Honda dealer website—most likely you will find out their disclaimers are well documented and the “trim” levels are extremely particular. They are also very strict on how a dealer a dealer markets itself. Usually each dealership has some kind of claim to fame like “Biggest in the Midwest!” or sales titles like “Inventory Liquidation Sale!”. Honda and Toyota fine big $ for that. They’ve got really tight control over their branding both online and at the Dealership.
Sure you’ll come across terrible sales people. Ever go to Best Buy? It’s like c’mon buddy—I’ve been building machines since I was 14. Same thing at a Dealership. Usually the older salespeople are really good. You know theyre good because they wouldn’t still be at a commissions style job if they suck.
These days it doesn’t really matter if the Dealership has water marks on their ceiling tiles or if they’ve got vaulted ceilings and granite countertops. Do your research on the actual cars and find out who around you has one. Then do all your communication over the internet. Most of the times when you call them - you’re actually speaking with a call center who lines everything up for you at the dealership. Come in, sign your papers, and pick up the car. If you’re buying used - I’d recommend going private because you’ll usually get a better deal.
Plus, if there’s a dealer you really like—just have them trade cars and buy from the one you like. A lot of them have agreements with each other for doing this.
Lance
on 05 Dec 08@Jason Zimdars Was this VW place in Encinitas, CA? If so, I bought my GTI there and will be buying my next car there if they have something I like then. Maybe a R32? That dealership is the best.
@aunt_jemimah The “industry” needs every lesson they can get. They are failing. They suck. They deserve to fail. The big three that is.
Brade
on 05 Dec 08As many others have probably pointed out (but I don’t feel like checking), your advice is nullified by the fact that you bought the Jeep. When it comes down to it, the bottom line is all that matters—maybe that’s the real thesis here, huh? Heck, that’s why Wal-Mart is still thriving…
Anonymous Coward
on 05 Dec 08Heck, that’s why Wal-Mart is still thriving…
Wal-Mart is still thriving because people like low prices. Their stores are clean and check-out is fast. Wal-Mart runs a great business. That’s why they are in business.
Warren Benedetto
on 05 Dec 08My experience with buying cars from dealerships has been akin to getting anally raped with a broken champagne bottle.
Good lighting or bad lighting, American or Japanese, messy desk or clean, it didn’t matter. Ever dealership I have ever walked into has been a miserable experience full of lying, cheating, scheming salespeople.
What matters is not the decor. It’s the attitude. It’s the emotional resonance of the experience. Decor can contribute to that, but it’s not enough. Dealers need to actually care about their customers and treat them like customers, not marks.
I ultimately ended up buying my van from CarsDirect.com, and it was like a dream come true. They are the Zappos of car dealers. Total focus on customer service.
I went on their website, selected the make, model, and features I wanted. Within 20 minutes, one of their people called me to confirm the order. They said they’d call me back by the end of the day.
An hour later, they called back with three options for the van I wanted. They helped me negotiate a lower price than I thought possible, and even talked me out of some features I wanted because I could get them cheaper in the aftermarket.
My wife was 9 months pregnant at the time, and the best van was at a dealership two hours away. I couldn’t leave her for that long with no car. I explained this, and the CarsDirect guy said to hold on. He called the dealer on the other line, and within 5 minutes he had them agree to deliver the van TO MY HOUSE. For FREE. The NEXT DAY.
Less than 24 hours after I placed the order, I had the exact van I wanted, delivered to my house, at a price about $5,000 less than I expected, with 0% interest. I signed the contract at my kitchen table.
The next day, the CarsDirect rep called to see that I was happy. As I was thanking him, I swear to god, I got choked up. It was such an incredibly positive, actually ENJOYABLE experience, that I was in awe. If he had been in front of me, I would have given him a hug.
When was the last time you heard someone say that about a car dealership?
If a dealership treated me like CarsDirect did, it wouldn’t matter if it looked like Abu Ghraib.
Christopher Hawkins
on 05 Dec 08I recently bought a Toyota Highlander. The experience was great because there was no haggling. There was no haggling because I used my Costco membership to get the pre-negotiated price on the car; in this case, $500 over invoice.
Could I have gotten $500 over invoice on my own if I had been inclined to put the time and energy into haggling? Maybe. But the point is, I didn’t need to. I walked the lot, found the one I wanted, and the guy showed me the pre-negotiated Costco price.
Bam. Done. It was great.
That’s nucking futs.
Blagoj
on 05 Dec 08I would say “The hell with the 3”. Leave them to burn off all the money they have left and watch them die. They should learn from the European and Japanese makers a lesson or two and than start from scratch.
There are only two brands a care about, Cadillac and European Ford. Cadillac is unique and stylish, Ford is sexy, they should sell the European line here.
Nathan L. Walls
on 05 Dec 08Re: Wal-Mart > Their stores are clean and check-out is fast.
That is not universally true, though I wish it were at the times when I’m there. Perhaps it’s district or store management scheduling decisions, but in the last two hours my closest Wal-Mart is open, there are two, perhaps three checkers. For 75 people and no self-service lines open.
Wal-Mart’s prices may be less-expensive than other places, but I will gladly pay more to not be in line for half an hour.
f5
on 05 Dec 08re: Christopher Hawkins
...I think you’re the first to touch on it, 64 comments into it? Let’s all say it aloud:
Auto Brokers.
Service
on 05 Dec 08Forget the buying experience – just wait until the first service, then post again on that experience.
Something to try next time you buy a car: Greet the salesperson, then ask to meet the service manager. You’ll deal with the salesman once, but the service staff every couple of months.
Conversely, if you have a bad service experience, moan to the salesman – it’s in his interests to sort it out smoothly so you’ll buy your next car there.
Daniel Gibbons
on 05 Dec 08@Blagoj: Totally agree about European Fords. I’m currently shopping for a wagon. If I was in the UK it would be a no-brainer: Ford Mondeo. Fantastic to drive, elegant styling, great interior… but not sold here and no prospect of that happening any time soon.
CJ Curtis
on 05 Dec 08I agree that the Big 3 need lessons from wherever they can find them. Nevermind the poor business management, but the products themselves…
We have a 2005 Ford Escape. We bought it new, and it’s been well taken care of. It has just over 70,000 miles and it’starting to sound like a damn lawn mower.
A few years ago I had a Honda Civic. Bought it new too. I drove the hell out of that thing…over 65,000 miles in less than three years. It was NEVER serviced for anything outside of oil, plugs, etc.. And when I traded it in, I got almost 2/3 of it’s original price tag.
CarGuy
on 05 Dec 08It’s true, I’ve worked in many Big 3 dealerships and salespeople often keep messy desks. These are usually the ones who have been with the company for 20+ years who have also refused to update the wardrobe they began selling in 20 years ago.
The younger sales people, however, are well-dressed and keep a very tidy work environment. The veterans that have survived the years, have it stuck in their minds that: “This style of sales has worked for me for years, why change?” This is when the dealership owners / managers need to step in and set new policies. (However it proves difficult for the managers, because the messy, unkept staff are still their best performers…
Now about the facilities…I’ve also worked for some foreign dealerships. These franchises require specific signage, tile, paint colors, track lighting and even faucets in the bathroom. They also mandate the arrangement and colors of cars on the showroom. In my experience, this certainly makes a purchasing atmosphere conducive to our younger generations.
Dealerships are owned independent of the manufacturer. The dealer’s are responsible for taking out loans to purchase millions of dollars in inventory (and pay interest while the cars sit on the lots). The U.S. government doesn’t subsidize our auto industry – it is important to know that we are the only country where the auto industry isn’t subsidized by our government. So when Toyota, Honda and others have more modern facilities, remember that they’ve got government $$ easing the costs. In our current market, the domestic auto dealerships are struggling to be in the black each month – they can’t afford to take out millions to renovate their facilities.
These are just some thoughts to keep in mind when viewing foreign auto dealer showrooms versus the domestic. Also, remember that even though Toyota’s and others may be assembled in the U.S., a big chunk of their profits are going back overseas.
ratchetcat
on 05 Dec 08At this point, letting the big 3 die is probably necessary for true progress in transportation design to occur. The manufacturing plants, technologies, etc. could all be retained and remain useful for whatever follows. However, the corporate bureaucracies which block invention and careful design should be chucked.
Anonymous Coward
on 05 Dec 08I wonder how much of foreign car manufacturing is subsidized by foreign government.
dreed
on 05 Dec 08Having an Audi-bias myself, something I noted about Audi dealerships is the level of car knowledge and the enthusiast mentality the associates have. I am Audi-biased (I have had a few, most recent 1995 UrS6) but I have been to other dealerships and have never found people eager to talk about cars from their own experience, knowledge… always just give you the marketing crap.
Lisa Labelle
on 06 Dec 08I think that the big 3 have far more worries than what their dealerships look like. There aren’t gonna be any dealerships in a short period if we don’t demand more from upper management, and the goverment as far as receiving these kind of funds, and having our taxes skyrocket like never before….to fix problems that we didn’t create. It’s the big 3’s turn to take care of their own mess, if this means mergers then so be it, I’m sick of paying for other peoples poor decisions, I already have to pay for my own. Bah humbug, on the big 3, and shame on them. It’s not even about the product, or the showrooms anymore, it’s about irresponsibility, time to make american CEO’s responsible for their own mess!!!
andrew
on 06 Dec 08I was just thinking about the US car industry tonight as I flipped through the latest Wired and came across a two-page ad for the Ford Flex. The ad is clearly aimed at tech-lusting nerd-hipsters, and the car is an obvious Scion xB rip-off. The ad isn’t touting the Flex’s fuel-efficiency (I have no idea if it is or isn’t fuel-efficient), but the fact that it has a refrigerator and a low-grade laser light show system in it. Because that’s what’s going to save the industry: cold beverages and ambient lighting systems.
I’ve had mixed experiences at dealerships, but like most people the thought of researching, test-driving, negotiating and purchasing a car is on par with getting a root canal. My most recent offer a stark contrast between the same manufacturer, Nissan.
We’ve leased a Nissan Murano for two years, and absolutely love it. I’d say we were in somewhat of a similar situation to Jason. We knew what we wanted, and we’re looking for the right deal. We ended up leasing the last year’s model, which had been a demo. It had everything we wanted except navigation, which we really could live without. (Backup camera was a deal-breaker, though. Priceless in the city.) The dealership we ended up leasing it from is dirty, disheveled, and cramped. The sales people are super shady. We were in a position where we didn’t absolutely need the car right then and there, and were therefore able to negotiate from a pretty strong position. They on the other hand, were at the end of their year and wanted to get old models out the door. As we’ve come to learn, their service dept. is always efficient, but surly as hell. It’s not a fun place to be, but they do a good job.
Earlier this year we bought another Nissan, a Versa. We made the mistake of going back to the same dealership, mainly because it’s nearby and it would be easy to test drive the car. Such an awful experience. Sales people outright lying to us, wasted a good couple hours, will never go back.
Then my wife found out about the Costco membership program, so we called around and eventually were able to arrange for the car we wanted over the phone, and just went to the dealership to pick it up. What a difference! The place was clean, friendly, had a toy car for our son to drive around in, a nice lounge with a flatscreen, tons of magazines while we waited, clean bathrooms, etc.
Another great touch was the extra warranty coverage level for Costco members. Typically the deal is you have to have service done at the specific dealership you buy the car from. Instead, this dealership just takes that credit and buys you the nationwide Nissan coverage so you can go wherever you want. They don’t have to do that, but they realize people shop around and it’s not realistic for you to come to them for an oil change. That’s smart.
The finance guy (I know, I know, never finance thru the dealership… it’s a moot point for us.) was one of the nicest, helpful and transparent individuals I’ve ever met in the car business.
Before the Nissans we had a VW. That was also an awful experience all around. Loved the car, but sales people were liars, service guys were total dicks. A few months before we got rid of it, the dealership changed ownership. After the change over, I spoke to a service guy about all the problems we had with the previous management. He said, “Yeah, we’ve heard a lot of horror stories. I guess they just weren’t interested in making their customers happy. It’s really not that hard.”
Alex
on 06 Dec 08European experience: I wanted to buy a van from a Renault dealer. My father who had bought two Renaults in the last 3 years from this dealer made the appointment. We wanted to trade in two cars – a Renault and a Toyota. The dealer:
1) told us that both cars were practically worthless and offered EUR 2000. The Toyota dealer where we bought the Toyota offered 4000 on the phone (without seeing the car)! 2) didn’t know about financing options that were on display in the dealership. 3) let us wait for hours until the test drive was ready
We ended up buying a used Citroen from a BMW dealer. The difference in dealers was similar to what Jason described…
Jack
on 06 Dec 08Getting real with “state franchise laws”?
Justin
on 07 Dec 08I read here that you were shopping for a big ass publisher, meaning you are dreaming about writing a national bestseller.
Mr. Bookman: Ever heard of an editor? All major publishers have them and a book never get’s published without going through them first. It sounds like you’d be surprised at the amount of editing that can go on—they’ll often re-write large amounts as it’s their job to better express what the author is saying. Only a naive person would think that spelling and grammar are the most important things when writing something for a big publisher, especially for non-fiction books. You could argue that there is a correlation between bad grammar and bad content, but that’s hardly an accurate way to judge good content.
Carlos Segura
on 07 Dec 08Here’s my recent experience… http://www.cartype.com/pages/3322/chevrolet_camaro_markups
Shaun
on 08 Dec 08Man you can be a real baby sometimes. I’m waiting for the post about how this man went out of his way for a special request. Instead, you’ve given us 4 pages on dirty drop ceiling tile?
Also, this is your localized experience. This is not the same localized experience for others. I’ve seen some very beautiful Ford dealerships and some ugly Honda dealerships.
You do have a point, but in this case it’s not very well-thought.
Daniel Silverman
on 08 Dec 08Recently bought a Honda.
Went to four different Honda dealers, in four different styles. The smaller, older one had a friendly salesman who went out of his way to help me, and even had the decency to cringe a bit when reciting the ridiculous pre-scripted questions he was required to ask me. The slick new big-city dealership had an asshole salesman who insulted my intelligence and couldn’t spell. I ended up buying at the big assembly line dealership, because they had the make and model I wanted. It was a ridiculous and painful four hours, even at the “largest Honda dealer in North America.” I wish I could have just used Amazon one-click ordering.
I also looked at others cars in other brands and saw various dealerships. There didn’t seem to be any pattern behind which were nice and which were crappy, which had good salesmen and which had bad. My absolute best experience was at a Nissan dealer, but all the salesmanship in the world couldn’t make up for the missing features in the car.
I’m not sure there is a bigger lesson here, except that luxury dealers have more luxurious dealerships. Otherwise, it seems to be pretty much a crapshoot.
G IN NASH
on 09 Dec 08Saturn did it in the first 3 years or so. I was one of the first Saturn sales persons in the country, starting in 1990, at one of the original sales facilities, very near the plant in Springhill. I felt that I was part of something historic, and I was. Saturn’s reason for existence was to compete with the Japanese head to head.
It was phenomenally successful, for the customer, dealership, union, and GM. People would actually have to take a number and wait for a sales person on weekends, and they didn’t mind waiting. Highly trained and committed sales staff. No pressure. No haggling. Pretty good car. Led to an amazingly loyal customer base. Thousands of Saturn owners caravanned in to Springhill for the Saturn Picnic (1992 or so). Looked like Woodstock. It was weird. There were lots of comparisons to Harley Davidson and their cult of loyalty.
What happened? The real world intruded. Originally, Saturn was not a division of GM, but a “wholly owned subsidiary,” sort of like its own company, an experiment to see if this new thing could work, with it’s unique manufacturing, distribution, and retailing concepts, and, if it did, maybe have some of that trickle up into the other divisions. The union agreement was unique. The UAW workers who voluntarily made the leap to Saturn seemed to love it. The agreement would actually fit in your shirt pocket. It was a pamphlet, as opposed to a book.
Around 1994 or so, that changed.
The UAW won an election, got in, and threw out the new agreement to go to the traditional set up.
GM pulled Saturn into the fold and made it a “division.”
Things went downhill from there.
A massive opportunity, squandered. Amazingly sad. And they had traction, big time.
Fortunately, I was gone before it hit bottom.
By the way, the name “Saturn” was an homage to the rocket program. Remember that? When America put a man on the moon?
Who were those people? Damn, they kicked ass.
R.BIRD
on 09 Dec 08Disclaimer: I have not read any one of the responses to this original post.
Even so, the message is a live wire.
I’ve been persuading friends and family to consider more strongly buying American autos or, better, used American cars.
But, I am defenseless when it comes to shopping and buying experience. Foreign brands know this.
This discussion is closed.