Learning grammar has to be one of the most boring parts of studying language, especially studying the grammar of your native tongue. There are always exceptions of course—perhaps grammar is your cup of tea—but I’d bet it’s safe to say that most of us would rather undergo a root canal than sit through a lecture on inflectional morphology or modal forms.
However, when my wife was in college, studying linguistics, a classmate of hers had a really fascinating senior project. He proposed (and in fact, implemented) a sixth-grade grammar curriculum with an interesting focus: he had the kids create their own conlangs, and introduced both grammar and orthography concepts as part of that process. He supported the curriculum by showing the kids interesting real life examples, including (among other things) Mayan heiroglyphics!
I wish wish wish wish WISH that I’d had that man as my English teacher when I was in school. What a fascinating way to present an otherwise dry topic. Practical applications trump contrived examples every time.
Also, if you happen to be into conlangs, you may be interested in the 3rd Language Creation Conference, to be held on March 21 and 22 in Providence, Rhode Island. Whether you want to present or just attend, it looks like opportunities are available. (Disclaimer: I’m not affiliated with the conference, but it’s being organized by a friend of mine.)
Sai Emrys
on 02 Jan 09Thanks, Jamis!
FYI to readers: if you’d like a taste of what the Language Creation Conference is like, you can see all of the talks from the first LCC on Google Video:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=language+creation+conference
If you have any questions about conlangs or the conference, please feel free to email me.
GeeIWonder
on 02 Jan 09Certainly constructing useful languages has much potential/applications, but with so many languages disappearing so quickly, it seems a little backwards to me to be creating an endless list of new ones for what seem to be very narrow purposes, in domain as well as time and space.
BTW, isn’t thinking like this the rationale for using e.g. Ruby as a starting point?
David Peterson
on 02 Jan 09What does the state of natural languages have to do with creating fictional ones? That’s kind like suggesting that fiction writers should properly be out recording oral histories, since so many are disappearing, rather than writing new novels.
GeeIWonder
on 02 Jan 09@David
No, it’s like saying instead of bringing in a nail gun with a specific nail type that’s updated/antiquated depending on the Western sensitivities of the day and expecting people to use it, we should maybe find a way to use the hammers and nails they already have, or at least transition/adapt them to what hammers and nails are likely to be readily available.
Language is a tool, after all. Teaching people to speak a language understood by maybe 300000 people worldwide in an effort to promote communication is a ridonkulous notion.
Which is not to say there’s not lots of value in conlangs as tools of study. I just think the type of people who put websites up with the number of languages they’ve created are missing the point that language should be useful to some community, rather than simply an act of self-gratification.
But hey, that’s just me.
Michael
on 02 Jan 09That’s one reason I like C.S. Lewis’ “Out of the Silent Planet.” The protagonist’s observations and thoughts about the grammar and theology of the alien languages helped me understand our Earth language much better.
Paul
on 02 Jan 09I think you meant to title this entry, “A more better way to learn grammar.”
Alternately:
“A mo bettah wai 2 lern grammah yo!”
Fred
on 03 Jan 09Well, I can guarantee this post doesn’t end up on HN.
Farhan Thawar
on 03 Jan 09When learning French I found the following teacher’s guide to be invaluable, so such types of material can be useful if you know it exists.
http://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-French-Learning/dp/093403432X
Brian Jones
on 03 Jan 09Try learning grammar from a computer science perspective. :) Is that context free grammar? Is it terminal, non-terminal, and what are the productions?
Brian.
Igor
on 04 Jan 09Grammar is overrated as a tool to learn a language. I’m writing this post in the English language wich is not native to me. I never bothered to learn the grammar. As a result my use of English may not be perfect. Nevertheless I’m pretty confident my point will get accross.
Filmore Ha
on 05 Jan 09Interesting. I would like to know how it works though, that is to say how it helped the kids learn the grammar. It would be great if you had provided an example along with this.
@Igor I’m not sure about grammar being overrated as a language learning tool. At the moment I am still studying Japanese after 7 years (4 in college) and without knowing the grammar, it is impossible to proceed beyond a daily conversational level. That being said, Japanese is one of the more difficult languages because they have different vocabulary and grammar for “normal” “business” and “honorific” styles.
That aside, English is typically easy to pick up without really knowing the grammar. Listeners can generally guess what you are trying to say using context clues. My wife is Japanese and as such her English isn’t perfect either ;-)
SplitInfin
on 05 Jan 09This is an interesting topic for me, at my place of work. I taught English, especially grammar, for approximately nine years before embarking on a new career. I’ve listened for years to people lament how dry/boring grammar is, and how we’re doing a disservice to our young people by not making it interesting. I now manage a group of employees who are judged by their writing. The under-30 crowd cannot string a cohesive thought together on paper/computer screen. It’s too late to learn now unfortunately. Their (public) education should have spent less time building their self-esteem and more on grammar.
Sai Emrys
on 05 Jan 09@Filmore – English has normal, business, and honorific registers too.
Just try talking to a judge or your boss the same way you talk to your friends.
We just aren’t as conscious of it, and it’s not quite as obvious as it is in Japanese.
Samuel Kelly
on 05 Jan 09Jamis: “(Disclaimer: I’m not affiliated with the conference, but it’s being organized by a friend of mine.)”
I think the correct word is disclosure not disclaimer.
According to the Oxford American Dictionary:
disclaimer: a statement that denies something, esp. responsibility.
disclosure: the action of making new or secret information known.
That’s where the phrase “in the interest of full disclosure…” comes from. I have hardly see anyone on the Internet get this right…
Filmore Ha
on 05 Jan 09@Sai Emrys
I’m not sure if I can agree with normal, business, & honorific registers in English. I realize we have honorific titles, and politer words, but I tend to think of them as a common and natural part of our language. Much of our less polite words are just slang or conlangs.
Japanese however, has a seemingly endless amount of true vocabulary and unnecessary grammar that may serve some colloquial meaning for native speakers, but really just complicates an already complicated language. Many nationals that I discuss this with admit that their language really is just too complicated and is a headache even for them.
That all being said, I do love the variety and flavor of Japanese. Some things just can’t be expressed in English the way the can in Japanese. :-)
din
on 05 Jan 09i have 900 votes so far, and need just 100 more for my design http://www.threadless.com/submission/190165/Two_lion_heads_a_pencil_and_an_idea?=
Filmore Ha
on 06 Jan 09@Sai Emrys
I’m not sure if I can agree with normal, business, & honorific registers in English. I realize we have honorific titles, and politer words, but I tend to think of them as a common and natural part of our language. Much of our less polite words are just slang or conlangs.
Japanese however, has a seemingly endless amount of true vocabulary and unnecessary grammar that may serve some colloquial meaning for native speakers, but really just complicates an already complicated language. Many nationals that I discuss this with admit that their language really is just too complicated and is a headache even for them.
That all being said, I do love the variety and flavor of Japanese. Some things just can’t be expressed in English the way the can in Japanese. :-)
yaawn
on 06 Jan 09my aching ballbag protests at the hammer of modal forms and garys rammer…
David Peterson
on 06 Jan 09@GeelWonder: Not all language creators want people speaking their languages. I think you and I would both agree, for example, that promoting Esperanto as a spoken language is silly. That’s beside the point. Those who create languages for mass communication are a small portion of the language creation community at large. Plenty are perfectly happy to create languages, and have them appreciated, not spoken. The goal of putting up grammars is for others to admire the effort and ingenuity that went into constructing them, not for others to learn them.
GeeIWonder
on 07 Jan 09I take your point David. Honest.
The problem, in my view is that constructed languages are languages. And the term language itself, to my mind, implies the ability of usage for relatively specific communication, given a context.
Many of the conlangs were talking about are contrived systems that are unusable for relatively specific communication, and many even celebrate this. Many are designed without context at all. At some point these cease to become language at all. These are to language as crosswords are to literature or sudoku to mathematics.
Unfortunately, no matter what their other merits (and there are many), most of these systems and devices that consider usage an afterthought are not language. They may be art, they may be literary tools, they may be mathematics, they may be instructive systems. Certainly their use as immersive devices in fiction has become widespread.
My mistake perhaps is that people interested in conlangs are also interested in the study of languages, as many of the new systems are derived from the study of human language. Since only a small sample size of this basis for your field is recorded or preserved in any form, and much is on the verge of being lost, I would think this is very relevant.
But, again, we all have different viewpoints and are certainly entitled to them.
Sai Emrys
on 09 Jan 09@Filmore – Ever talked to someone learning English? I assure you it’s just as complicated in its own ways as Japanese. (Which, incidentally, I took for 5 years.)
In both Japanese and English, we have a variety of words and phrasal constructions that are used in different social contexts to indicate both general politeness and levels of deference to the addressee.
E.g. ‘wat you talkin bout, bitch?’ vs ‘would my honored colleague please be so kind as to clarify his argument?’ as extremes. They mean the same thing, but have very different connotation because of register differences.
@GeelWonder – Some conlangers are interested in having their languages become widespread (mostly auxlangers, e.g. Esperantists); some see that as fairly incidental to their real aims.
One might equally say that writing a Rails app, without making it available to the public for actual use, makes it less of an app… suppose one just wants to make something for its own sake?
At the least, it requires a judgment about how one values popularity vs technology, and that judgment varies.
This discussion is closed.