The idea of offline web applications is getting an undue amount of attention. Which is bizarre when you look at how availability of connectivity is ever increasing. EVDO cards, city-wide wifis, iPhones, Blackberry’s. There are so many ways to get online these days that the excitement for offline is truly puzzling. Until you consider the one place that is still largely an island of missing connectivity: The plane!
But planes are not a very common hang-out spot for most people. The two major groups of people who are on a plane often enough to care and have an interest in web applications are traveling salesmen and techies who go to too many conferences.
I used to somewhat belong to latter group. And I too liked the idea of having access to my web applications at 30,000 feet. Then it actually happened. SAS offered connectivity on their transatlantic flights between Copenhagen and Chicago. Nirvana, eh? Hell no. Access to my web applications meant that the one time where I’d actually have serenity to read a book or listen to a podcast or just chill out got sucked into looking just like any other day at the office.
Ironically, SAS killed the internet access on their transatlantic flights this January because nobody was using it. (Well, except for me saying “look, I’m online at 30,000 feet!!” in a chat room). And I think that’s a good indicator for offline web applications. The idea is cool, but the reality is that it just doesn’t matter. You don’t need access to all your stuff all the time. We’re already overloaded with connectivity. Cherish the few remaining strongholds for offlineliness!
(Yes, yes, I’m sure there exists other niches and pockets of dark holes where if only we had access to the GlobalMegaCorpSocialY application, the world would be a better place. I’m certainly not going to deny that. Just that for most people, most of the time, it couldn’t matter less.)
UPDATE: The Mile High Club: 37signals, fuck yeahs, and productivity stock-art
Derek
on 02 Apr 07Touché. I have actually found myself looking for moments of disconnection. Being disconnected can be so stress-free some times. I think people who are looking for their offline Gmail accounts are those who cringe when the wifi disappears while moving between hotspots.
Ben
on 02 Apr 07Come on. Most people are not hooking in through their cellular services. Most people don’t live in magical free wi-fi clusters. While it may be very charming for you to say that none of your rich urban friends are ever disconnected except on airplanes doesn’t mean that most people are in that category.
If these web apps want to get significant adoption, they need to offer these features. Getting indignant because you don’t need (or want) them is a little bizarre.
Jesper
on 02 Apr 07I don’t think the “excitement” for offline web apps are about being able to work absolutely everywhere. I appreciate the point about people not being productive on planes, and I agree with it. There’s just other reasons to be able to use web apps offline than being able to work from planes.
Consider someone who has all – or much – of his customer contact info in Highrise, and project info in Campfire and Basecamp. If his company broadband (or home broadband, if he works from home) goes down and he’s illiterate about other options (or he’s constantly fighting his 3G or EVDO card to actually get it to connect), he’s fucked.
Eventually, broadband will get to the point where it’s rock solid for most. It already is for high-end services. But it’ll take some time to get there, and until it does for everyone, this is something that has the potential to be a problem. When it becomes a problem, it strikes those that have a ton of essential information hardest, and it sounds like a common characteristic for 37signals’ users.
Niels
on 02 Apr 07While this might be true for large parts of the US and Europe other countries/areas/cities are not “drenched” in connectivity. After moving from Germany to Australia a few months ago I am still amazed by how terrible internet access even right in Sydney’s CBD is. Even if you are an internet company having a business account at a leading ISP, you might lose connectivity for some 1-4 hours every few weeks, everything above 128kbps is considered to be broadband and if you move more than a few blocks you cant take your phone number with you because they are PHYSICALLY HARD WIRED in the exchange boxes at the street corners.. Just to inform you about the harsh reality outside your united states.. And yes, we also don’t have Quiznos..
James Spahr
on 02 Apr 07Isn’t one of the things offline access may be about, be the ability to not have to worry about having a net connection to get to your data? If my calendar is online, it’s nice to know that I can know I can check it anywhere. Just open the laptop and look. Not open the laptop, find a connection, maybe log on to the connection, and then look.
Ben Atkin
on 02 Apr 07I agree. The most important part of things like Joyent’s Slingshot is the ability to get around current browser usability limitations. I’d like to be able to drag files from Finder and drop them in a web application, or for Campfire to deliver the same kind of notification as desktop IM programs (bouncing logo until I click on it on a Mac or orange taskbar icon until I click on it in Windows XP).
I’d like to see web application developers provide an API for Firefox extension developers (I don’t know if browsers are designed in such a way that it’s possible yet, or if a Firefox extension could be written to accept dragging from the desktop and dropping into a web application). Then we could get 90% of what we would want out of something like Slingshot without having two very different ways of using a program—and, also, the browser developers would know what’s in demand for the next release.
Jack Shedd
on 02 Apr 07I couldn’t agree more.
First, it’s strange to hear talk of “offline applications” since we HAVE offline applications now. And they continue to best even the most intricate web application by miles. Designing a desktop application with javascript and HTML is simply silly.
So what you end up with with applications whose entire point is connectivity, sans connectity, where you’re flying blind and just entering in information for no real reason.
I just don’t see the point. If you’re somewhere where you can’t get online, you should enjoy it. Do something analog. Better, don’t do anything at all. Enjoy the silence.
Jeff
on 02 Apr 07I maintain a web app for an Oregon non-profit. The app is used by a few dozen social workers around the state, often in very rural locations that simply don’t have affordable broadband connections. Since these individuals are using the app 3-4 hours per week, we developed a client side module so their phone lines weren’t always busy with dial-up. Once or twice a week, they log into the app and sync their data.
Pete Forde
on 02 Apr 07Amen.
I run a Rails development shop. Our clients aren’t asking for it, our developers aren’t excited about it, and we’re not excitedly discussing it at Pub Nite.
Yet last week at ETech Adobe, Mozilla, and Joyent were all on about it. One way or another.. these are people looking to sell us something. I think that this whole push screams “we need a next big thing and we need it now.”
There’s nothing wrong with offline syncronization.. but it’s a feature/tool, not a product – certainly not a platform.
Hold on.. my Marimba feed just updated. What’s Kim Polese up to, anyhow?
Hunter Nield
on 02 Apr 07I agree that offline is becoming less important but for the immediate future I still think there is some relevance.
For a good number of countries there is not the luxury of having decent ubiquitous internet access. Coming from Australia the wireless connectivity through Wifi or EVDO is established but not at a price point where everyone can afford. This certainly limits the amount of online time when travelling away from office/home and in many cases offline access to your favourite web app is beneficial.
Australia still lags behind the US and other European countries on net and wireless access (certainly price wise). For other countries in our region (Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines) it is even worse especially outside of a major city. Considering the population in these countries there could be uses for offline web apps for a large number of people.
I do some work for aid organisations, helping them enable online communications for disaster relief. Although in these cases it’s certainly a small number of users, they would directly benefit from offline support for the web applications.
Adrian
on 02 Apr 07After roaming around a lot the last few weeks and using my laptop in places, I would agree there is a lot of broadband around. However most of it is closed secure WiFi, then some paid WiFi (and by paid I mean really expensive for what you get) and then there is some slow WiFi. The WiFi was down at FOWA London, and the BT cloud slowed don to an unusable trickle. Sure you can dial up over your mobile, but currently this is still slowish and expensiveish for the most part.
And then try go out of the UK/USA and out of major cities and you’re pretty much in even a worse case. GPRS data chargers from roaming in France cost me $300 for a week and that was only 21mbs. South Africa’s just getting DSL, never mind pervasive wireless.
So whilst you might be right about there being more internet available all over the place, I don’t think it’s quite at the point where it can be considered as pervasive as say electricity (and even then I struggle to find a public plug point for my laptop in many airports)
So if the world is moving more towards environments where we use webapps, I think the browser (or apollo and whatnot) is going to have to learn how to behave offline and sync when connected too.
If I use GMail but the airport I have in has no (decent valued) connection, then I can’t write emails. Sure there are solutions with Gmail (at a basic level you can write them in Word and send later) but this isn’t really a great set of usability asking users to work around the problem. But if GMail could work online or offline this problem would be solved.
I think offline applications are going to grow more online (as say office documents and sharepoints vaguely do), and online applications will grow more offline (as apollo and FF3 look like they might offer the ability to do that)
I think the whole discussion about offline/online will vanish, not when broadband is pervasive, cheap and everywhere (as I really believe even when this happens things will still go wrong and there will still be time when you have no connection) but when applications (online and offline) evolve to a point where state is handled by the application, and not the user and the apps just work, regardless of offline and online.
On the other hand in a world where synchronising with a cell phone normally leads to something going wrong, and synchronising my iCal and gCal keeps leading to repeating all the data in both … I don’t have much hope for synchronising data between online and offline just yet either.
Nikhil Kulkarni
on 02 Apr 07Your view is a very ‘American-office-developer’ one ;-) Its not just the plane – its the Cabs, trains (tubes/metros) and buses as well. Think of consultants who spend at their clients (or traveling to their offices) than in their own office.
I am a tech consultant in Mumbai, India and believe me – I travel more than 4 hours a day and often more – shunting from client to client. If I did not have access to my mailbox in Cabs, Trains and buses – where I cant (or don’t want to) spend time to ‘dial-up’ first and then open my Web App – my day would be half as productive!!! One can always sync up once connected but the issue is of being able to access the data even without being connected.
Another aspect where I feel offline access is important is in parts of India where connectivity is a major bottleneck – where people still have to rely on copper wire telephone line to get online at a data throughput of 2-10kbps.
barry.b
on 02 Apr 07you’ve obviously never tried to do inventory or sales in remote Australia where the majority of the agri-business is.
Australia has woeful broadband roll-out, concentrated in the major cities on the coasts. Lots of rural customers are still trying to survive on dial-up because they still have access to the P.O.T.S (when their land-line works, that is since mobile coverage is almost as bad)
Heck, I’m switching between on- and off-line all the time. From home to work via the bus/train, over to a friends house, on holidays miles from anywhere.
just because you’re blind, doesn’t mean other people can’t see the use.
XU
on 02 Apr 07You need an offline app when your 36G cellphone or your DSL isn’t working… _
Luca
on 02 Apr 07A friend of mine has to travel on a train for 1 hour to and from work each day, he asked me whether there was a way to use Basecamp offline, and as there isn’t he just got a (expensive) data plan on his mobile.
Unfortunately down in this part of England the phone reception is far from satisfactory, if I am on the phone on the train I end up being cut off about 4 times due to loss of signal – hell I can’t even get a reception where I live…. :p
There is a need by some people for offline applications, but I think the number is relatively low, and as Jack said, in that case we already have offline applications.
Andy B
on 02 Apr 07Ben – “web application developers provide an API for Firefox”. I think this is a brill idea, something I don’t see discussed much online. Perhaps this is an area that 37signals could pioneer with their tools.
On the issue of offline web apps, I just think the current wave of ideas (Apollo, Slingshot) are just using the wrong APIs to deliver robust rich client apps. They need to use Windows Presentation Foundation or OSX Core Animation ie. native client applications. Using javascript we’d lock ourselves into 5 years of developing client apps with inadequate tools.
Peter Jennings
on 02 Apr 07I think that the benefits of offline web applications go beyond poor connectivity, although that clearly is a big one. I’ve currently got two very different business ideas that I’m looking at that will work so much better by being able to use a platform such as Apollo, as opposed to just through an online medium. Its important to think ‘outside the box’ on this one.
Aaron F
on 02 Apr 07I couldn’t agree less.
I’ve been traveling in China for the last several months and I could have definitely used offline service for several of the web applications I regularly use (including Basecamp). When I have internet access (which isn’t all the time) it’s often slow and breaks up easily. Sorry, but not all of us always work in highly connected environments.
Providing offline access gives more control for the users, the customers, to decide how they want to work. That’s why I still use POP3 for my email, I can download it and work on it anytime I want on my laptop.
It’s about choice and extending the reach of your services. If you’re not interested in that, then by all means, ignore the issue of offline access.
Billy
on 02 Apr 07Ireland is an internet blackspot. Businesses have had to lay off staff and people move houses because of the unavailability of even 1mb internet access.
So an offline app has its merits. Our office got plugged out from DSL and it took us a month to get back up and running. Maybe in an environment where ISPs are competitive and provide a service it would have merit not to have an off line element but in “modern Ireland” the likelihood that you are going to be plugged out for an indeterminate amount of time and for a random reason is pretty high.
Fred
on 02 Apr 07Your argument appears a little self-serving. Diverse requirements can be better met by versatile applications.
When I lived in Sri Lanka, half the island was unplugged from the web for a couple of weeks when a ship dragged its anchor and took out a fibre-optic cable off the coast of Colombo.
Living in a Central African city with frequent power cuts and very little bandwidth for my buck, I have a preference for personal organization software that I can both save online and access offline.
However, the phone networks work well here, and I find it useful to be able to check email and RSS headlines on the move, sometimes.
Although we’ve all managed OK without it so far, I’d like to have the option to use the Internet on the plane. It’ll take more than that to stop me reading or listening to music.
Des Traynor
on 02 Apr 07Having lived in Ireland all my life, I’d have to whole-heartedly disagree with Billy here.
Living in Dublin and working in Kildare, I’ve never been stuck for a net connection, even all the small towns on the commute have net cafes (if things were That important).
Net access on a plane is one of those things that no one needs but dozens of people seem to come up with reasons to use.
Phil
on 02 Apr 07David, the same thing could be said about the need to have a cell phone on and accessible 24/7 like most people do. Sometimes not being able to be contacted is a great thing, and we were able to live like that for years. Now we have cell phones and we’re all on call 24/7.
Right now with web apps, we use them when we need them, but when we can’t get to them, such as on an airplane, thats a loophole where we can relax. Now of course people are pushing for us to still be able to work there. Just relax people, and enjoy the fact that the plane is the one place you can sleep without being disturbed by work or cell phones.
Frank
on 02 Apr 07In Praise of Slowness- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhXiHJ8vfuk
Everyone focuses on getting things done and multi-tasking, when in reality we would be at peace more if we slowed down and showed some focus.
This relates to the “Smashing The Clock”idea: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_50/b4013001.htm
Andrew
on 02 Apr 07This looks like April Fools, 37s-style. Why April 2, rather than April 1? Remember, Jason refused to commit to a schedule for April Fools, saying that it would be ready when it was ready.
Andy
on 02 Apr 07Very true, if you limit your fucking life to the United States and Europe.
A lot of countries around the world have very spotty and limited wired internet access, and certainly no GPRS/WiFi network for the places in between.
Andy
on 02 Apr 07Very true, if you limit your fucking life to the United States and Europe.
A lot of countries around the world have very spotty and limited wired internet access, and certainly no GPRS/WiFi network for the places in between.
Marcus
on 02 Apr 07Maybe I’m alone, but I think you could do without the profanity. I realize you treat this blog almost like a personal blog but 37s is still a business and it seems tacky to me when that’s the first think I see on your site. There are better ways to get your point across.
some guy
on 02 Apr 07ok, david, based purely on anecdotal evidence from the last few years of your life you’ve convincingly proved the argument that people never find themselves in a situation where no connectivity is available.
actually a lot of hotels and travel-related establishments still offer very lousy, flakey connectivity. i have several friends who are consultants, analysts, etc. and others who for whatever reason spend large amounts of time on the road. lack of connectivity is a perpetual frustration for them.
secondly, a significant amount of the hype around things like Apollo and other RIA/next-generation stuff is that it also offers additional features normally only associated with desktop applications, such as access to the hard drive (under limited conditions).
thirdly, as others have already pointed out, connectivity in various parts of the world is still lousy. you’re not the first person to step in to this argument. did you try googling around a little first? or did you just impulsively write this out without thinking?
but in lieu of reason and facts you can just use anecdotal evidence and curse words, i suppose. feel free to shout down anyone who disagrees with you and disregard their arguments rather than considering their merits.
anony-mouse f****r
on 02 Apr 07Yeh dude, is the bad language really unnecessary? I’m sure a lot of us swear in the office but when you commit it to paper / a blog it changes the whole tone of the conversation.
Michele
on 02 Apr 07Overall, I think you’ve got a point here…
MP
on 02 Apr 07Great, due to the language I can no longer read this blog from work. Way to go David.
Icelander
on 02 Apr 07I’m sure it’s great if you spend most of your time in large cities. But for the great unwashed in flyover country, and who can’t afford the ridiculous mobile data rates in addition to huge cable Internet bills, offline web apps would actually be a convenience.
In other words: Like most 1337 technologists, you’re out of touch with what most of the rest of the world wants, needs, and has access to.
John
on 02 Apr 07It looks like RoR doesn’t have offline technology, so we are trying to “downplay” it and trying to get people to side with us to lessen the competition…
Distortion field at work here, folks.
hash
on 02 Apr 07While I agree for most of the US and Europe, I have to disagree in other areas of the world. Africa, which I cover, has need for this type of application.
This is due primarily to the inconsistencies that are found in Africa with both power and connectivity. There’s space for this type of web application there, and it’s something that if built right could be a great boon to many businesses. “Right” in this case means that it needs to be lightweight too, since most connections are really slow.
Do I need this type of application in the States? Probably not. In Africa, sure I do.
some guy
on 02 Apr 07John: the interesting that is that Joyent is trying to give existing Rails apps offline capabilities (and much more) via Slingshot.
Why would DHH piss on their efforts? Maybe because it doesn’t directly result in any book royalties for him.
Billy
on 02 Apr 07To Des. Yippee for you in your broadband wonderland.
To illustrate the black hole of broadband in Ireland where I live and try in vain to work. Eircom told us in no uncertain terms to move our company in Waterford Port closer to their exchange. They said the port was too far from the city. We replied that in order for a port to function it needs to be beside the water. This was not a valid reason to them.
We brought this up with the highest ranking civil servant in the dept of Communications. Nothing happened. We pointed out that we were a business and we needed communication facilities but this was again in vain.
We had endless problems with another company in Kerry, again for three full months in rural Ballsbridge and in Ashbourne we keep being plugged out for no reason. We have had 12 months of broadband issues in Ashbourne. We were in daily contact with Eircom over this.
In Baldonnel we had to get wireless broadband in another company because there was a bird sitting on the wire or the wires were the wrong colour. This was into a telecommunication company and we were further humiliated by having the road outside the premises dug up and fibre being put in for Citywest. The “national digital park”.
In Ireland getting broadband is a lottery. It is not a case of multitasking. It is a case of getting the opportunity to carry out any task at all. It is a necessity rather than a luxury for business.
In the past month we could not send pick orders to the warehouse nor invoices. We are a small company and we had to shuttle between the office and the warehouse wasting time and burning Diesel just to get the day to day done.
Our accounts server is in a data centre in Dublin. Our email is wherever Google hides it. Our project management is Basecamp. Our CRM is Leadsonrails (Shock! Horror! not Highrise) and we use skype to call international suppliers. No internet and our costs skyrocket. And also if there is no internet we have to change our model completely and go back to 1977.
The communication minister is my local politician and I have in the past met him. This time around in the election I will use my vote to disconnect him.
Most companies in Ireland are small to medium entities that cannot afford or justify leased lines. Multinationals get connected because the backbone is there but anyone that is not a multinational gets short shrift. In short an offline app makes perfect sense for those of us where internet connectivity is not a given. And even when it is a given it can be taken away at a moments notice.
Billy
on 02 Apr 07To Des. Yippee for you in your broadband wonderland.
To illustrate the black hole of broadband in Ireland where I live and try in vain to work. Eircom told us in no uncertain terms to move our company in Waterford Port closer to their exchange. They said the port was too far from the city. We replied that in order for a port to function it needs to be beside the water. This was not a valid reason to them.
We brought this up with the highest ranking civil servant in the dept of Communications. Nothing happened. We pointed out that we were a business and we needed communication facilities but this was again in vain.
We had endless problems with another company in Kerry, again for three full months in rural Ballsbridge and in Ashbourne we keep being plugged out for no reason. We have had 12 months of broadband issues in Ashbourne. We were in daily contact with Eircom over this.
In Baldonnel we had to get wireless broadband in another company because there was a bird sitting on the wire or the wires were the wrong colour. This was into a telecommunication company and we were further humiliated by having the road outside the premises dug up and fibre being put in for Citywest. The “national digital park”.
In Ireland getting broadband is a lottery. It is not a case of multitasking. It is a case of getting the opportunity to carry out any task at all. It is a necessity rather than a luxury for business.
In the past month we could not send pick orders to the warehouse nor invoices. We are a small company and we had to shuttle between the office and the warehouse wasting time and burning Diesel just to get the day to day done.
Our accounts server is in a data centre in Dublin. Our email is wherever Google hides it. Our project management is Basecamp. Our CRM is Leadsonrails (Shock! Horror! not Highrise) and we use skype to call international suppliers. No internet and our costs skyrocket. And also if there is no internet we have to change our model completely and go back to 1977.
The communication minister is my local politician and I have in the past met him. This time around in the election I will use my vote to disconnect him.
Most companies in Ireland are small to medium entities that cannot afford or justify leased lines. Multinationals get connected because the backbone is there but anyone that is not a multinational gets short shrift. In short an offline app makes perfect sense for those of us where internet connectivity is not a given. And even when it is a given it can be taken away at a moments notice.
God
on 02 Apr 07My son DHH (not Jesus) has spoken. There will be NO offline apps.
I hope this is an April fools day joke, otherwise the last little piece of respect I had for DHH and 37 signals is down the drain.
37 signals…your 1337 and elite development shop.
Dylan
on 02 Apr 07Take up surfing!
Sitting in the ocean, riding waves and chilling out for hours on end (ideally everyday) is the ultimate escape.
Opthamologist
on 02 Apr 07Please visit an Opthamologist, you’re obviously myopic. Sure seems like you’re also insulated from the rest of the world and surrounded by sycophants.
Mike
on 02 Apr 07Simply childish, immature, juvenile and not very professional.
Kinda like usual for you guys.
sean
on 02 Apr 07Others have said it, but so will I: the world, and much of the US, is not as wired as you seem to think it is.
Here in rural southwestern New Mexico, the best service I can get is 500k from a local WISP, and when the weather decides to clobber their antenna up on the mountain, I’m cut off.
The lack of offline functionality is the exact reason I don’t rely on ANY web application for anything important.
Seth Aldridge
on 02 Apr 07Disconnecting from my work is hard to do, but when I get the chance or excuse I jump at it. Begin able to access the internet while in the air seems like a cool idea, but for me it would only be helpful if I were going on a long, over seas, flight, or on a quick flight to a meeting that I was under prepared for. It would seem that overseas flights would be more effective and useful to having internet access.
Doug Karr
on 02 Apr 07The perspective you’re looking at this is so narrow that I’m genuinely shocked as a fan of 37 signals. You are mixing online and offline functionality with Internet Connectivity.
This is not a question of being connected, it’s a question of resource management. If I can have an application that utilizes the resources of a laptop as effectively as that of a server, as well as balancing the use of bandwidth between the two, it can create a fantastic user experience for all involved.
Also… dropping the f-bomb was unnecessary. Do try to avoid it in the future.
Maris
on 02 Apr 07The fact is that people still use desktop applications, and those applications by-and-large offer better integration and responsiveness than their online equivalents.
If anything, this is a direct assault on the entrenched desktop programming world. These platforms blur the line between thin and thick desktops, they enable a single standard for cross-platform development, and they open new frontiers for web-based developers. That is no small achievement!
Removing the browser’s chrome is a big step. Others have already moved in this direction, notably Konfabulator. Konfabulator takes brilliant advantage of this web-based, cross-platform environment through Javascript, XML, and its own self-contained runtimes. Adobe, Slingshot, et. al. are opening up that environment to a larger audience.
Think of it another way: could you develop a desktop application for Windows, Mac, and Linux, with all the bells and whistles, as quickly as you can build a single online app? No? Well, now you can.
~bc
on 02 Apr 07Wow. Saying people don’t need offline apps is like saying “Let them eat cake.” Totally out of touch.
I shouldn’t have to go out of my way to get at my data on your servers. I shouldn’t have to pay an extra tax (to acquire net access at places other than my home/office) to get at my own data. By saying you don’t think its a big deal is just shooting yourself in the foot.
The reason I don’t use more 37s products is because of this. I don’t want to have to count on your uptime or my net access to get at my data… but all these old school apps still provide me with this.
Why wouldn’t you want to leverage this to compete against desktop apps?
whoa
on 02 Apr 07The title of this post: “you’re not on a fucking plane” is way off brand for you guys. A lot of other blogs adopt a hard edge negative piss on everything tone to try to create a “voice”. But it seems out of place here. Are you really that pissed about offline web applications? Take a breath of fresh air.
Al
on 02 Apr 07Couple of comments :
1) Aren’t these people part of your target audience for Highrise “traveling salesmen and techies” 2) Outside of your own environment you will likely find connectivity to be a lot less prevalent than you imagine 3) This post sounds a little like an excuse not to build a brilliant 37 Signals solution to the off-line problem, why would you do that.
Surely having a solution for off-line use is better than not having one isn’t it, or does this just fall into the less is more category ;)
Rob Freeborn
on 02 Apr 07i love the fact that i came to the blog to read the comments (and everyone that showed the obvious need for offline functionality made my points – no need to rehash them) and when i got here there was an ad for Adobe from “the deck” – the same adobe pushing apollo…...
augustss
on 02 Apr 07SAS killed the onboard Internet access because Connexion (owned by Boing) killed it. Several European carriers offered Internet on board. Lufthansa had it on must of its long haul flights. And it was reasonably popular. But it never caught on with American carries, probably because they didn’t have the money to invest in the infrastructure. So on the whole Connexion didn’t make a profit and closed down.
Rick Bradley
on 02 Apr 07I work for a large “community-based” mental healthcare nonprofit who is deploying a Rails-based patient health record. That quoted bit “community-based” means that we have facilities spread throughout out community—which for us means 150+ locations over 22 counties, some exceedingly rural. Our application works well for a large part of our user-base, but we have hundreds of case managers who work primarily from their cars, out in the field, visiting clients where they live. In the past we have tried paper, cellular, and wireless technologies to allow our case managers to work on our system in the field. Some of the areas where we do work (and lots of it) don’t even have reliable voice cell phone access. The only technology which works reliably so far for us out there is paper, which has the unfortunate downside of not being integrated with our system.
Anyway, we’ve been investigating developing a Palm-based application, fielding our app on tablets, etc., trying to improve the workflow of our case managers. If we can develop (or reuse) a synchronization layer for ActiveRecord then we can put case managers in the field with a laptop or tablet in their hands, and they can sync up before and after and actually be able to use our system to help our clients. We’re optimistic that if someone has been able to do this, then we can either use that or build our own. It would be ideal if the synchronization layer were open source, frankly. Fortunately only so many people will reinvent this wheel before it becomes open source, and if we’re forced to do it then I feel certain we’ll open source our version.
Best, Rick
Homer
on 02 Apr 07@Doug Karr This is a blog, not the NY Times.
Please don’t ask bloggers to stop writing in their voice. If someone actually speaks with curse words (like most of us), I’d like to see it in the blog – it makes things sound genuine.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07It appears to me that if you ever had questioned the users desire for your apps to be available offline you certainly received your answer from the comments.
I don’t think you could have created a better survey to discover the users demand for offline apps.
Frameworks, architecture and the like are details to the larger question of demand.
Seems to me you have your answers.
steve
on 02 Apr 07I think what David might be saying is really two things: That offline apps are not a consumer product (offline meaning, online applications that-surprise-can do crap offline.) and that time offline is devine.
In the book “Designing Interactions” it was said that most technology goes through three stages: the enthusiast (who cares if it sucks to use – they will use it because of what it does for them), the professional (they aren’t paying for it, it simply is required as part of their position) and finally the consumer (it better be easy to use or it is going back to the store.) I think offline app tech like Apollo is targeting the professional space right now. I don’t know many consumers that are obsessed with offlining the often web 2.0 services they consume (maybe they might like to offline their gmail reading/ writing experience – but then again isn’t a “printer” gmail’s offline state?) I think that as the use of offline app tech stabalizes and the general consumers (not enthusiast consumers) start paying for more online-based subscription products/services(definately the future) then creating more one-click installs for offlining those subscription products/services will gain some ground (right now we are talking about kids offlining their myspace so they can write blogs while hanging out with friends at the mall – wait, can’t they do that now with Office 2007?)
The second point is valuing offline time. I think there is a valid point for building real professional offline web apps, but then again, as a technologist, I think a huge case could be built for how cellphones, laptops, and wireless networks are creating a corporate culture of entitlement toward the time of the employee. By that I mean since companies can provide tools that evasively intrude on an employees time at all hours of the day, employees fear that their company feels entitled to that employees time at all hours of the day. Gone is the commuting downtime, with citywide networks, dependable quality public transportation and handheld devices. It is humorous when you see a $500 handheld device by some company touting mothers can wireless grocery shop while at the busstop. Their target audience is not the at-home father. It is the corporate machine that could drag an hour of additional laybor out of their employees while they are commuting to work in the morning.
A new vocabulary is emerging from the professional workforce at the point of a new employment negotiation: professional boundaries. People have to draw a line in the sand with the faceless corporate giant to ensure that “you pay me for “X” hours of focused effort—you are not leasing a 24×7 human asset.”
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07It appears to me that if you ever had questioned the users desire for your apps to be available offline you certainly received your answer from the comments.
People wanted floppy drives too until Apple said “hey, you don’t really need them anymore.” People think they need a lot of things.
ChrisB
on 02 Apr 07This post is reflects a disappointing amount of naivety and arrogance.
Lookup a map of bandwidth access rates! Since when is the world luxuriating in connectivity?
“One place that is still largely an island of missing connectivity” ?..
.... it’s not a “fucking plane”.
Try Africa.
Asia, India, Latin America— try pretty much anywhere outside of an EVDO Disneyland. (I’m in semi-rural U.S. with a 26K copper line at home).
Signed,
The Fortune 5 Billion
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07Bad analogy. There were great storage alternatives to floppy drives – cd-r, zip, etc. The only alternative to disconnected is, um, connected…
Clint
on 02 Apr 07People wanted floppy drives too until Apple said “hey, you don’t really need them anymore.” People think they need a lot of things.
Touche. I wish I could address you by real name however.
Floppies were old technology (CDs and Zips even were obviously going to win). Apple was right. However, broadband is relatively adolescent – meaning it hasn’t yet reached ubiquitousness. Read more comments above. Hence the ‘offline’ ability of web-based apps being an interesting and desired feature.
Floppies vs. offline apps is sort of an apples & oranges argument.
Jim
on 02 Apr 07There is no call for vulgarity in your postings. You have a very well formed view which is only diminished by juvenile antics with vulgar titles.
DHH
on 02 Apr 07some guy: Nothing like fresh conspiracy in the morning. I don’t get royalties on tab water either, but somehow I can refrain from pissing in the sink. Imagine!
f-bombs: First of all, I love that term. Including the notion that bombs are less offensive than fucking. Second, this blog carries the same voice that we use to talk amongst ourselves. We don’t invent a tie-wearing persona for the occasion of writing here.
To the “I REALLY need it” crowd: It’s great to hear people bring out arguments for why they need some app offline. I don’t think it’s a representative slice of consumers, but that doesn’t matter too much.
As I said, there’s no doubt niches and pockets of missing connectivity where it does matter. I’m sure some companies will chase those. What I am saying, though, is that offline access is unlikely to mean much to the majority of customers out there (who, for our count, are exactly American office workers—though the same holds for most any other group of office workers).
Mike
on 02 Apr 07Wow. So when 37signals can’t do something, they just tell people they are stupid for wanting it.
JF
on 02 Apr 07I find an interesting trend in these comments: People feel like they can’t get work done unless they are using software. I find that a little sad.
It’s as if being away from your software means you’re helpless, hopeless, un-productive, and rendered brainless.
It’s OK not to be connected. It’s OK not to have access to something all the time. It’s OK to have to use pen and paper sometime. It’s OK to actually not be able to get something done right this second.
The commercials and advertisements and billboards at airports make us feel worthless if we can’t have access to everything right now. If we can’t update that Excel spreadsheet we’re dead! If we can’t change that one Powerpoint slide immediately the deal is off! I just don’t buy it.
A break is a good thing. Being away is a good thing. It gives you a time to think, recharge, and break your addiction to glowing screens and pixels.
I’ll write more on this topic another time. I just wanted to chime in.
Jim
on 02 Apr 07To DHH: Would to speak to your a stranger in the line at a coffee shop, your parents, or children with the language you use in this post? Did it add any value? Offensive language is almost never required, save it for when you really need it.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07I don’t think it’s a representative slice of consumers, but that doesn’t matter too much.
Hmm. I guess because it doesn’t represent a ‘big enough’ slice of ‘your’ customers – then it doesn’t really matter.
But why wouldn’t you want ‘more’ customers?
Clint
on 02 Apr 07JF: In health-care you must be available 24/7. Often (sadly) lives depend on it.
some guy
on 02 Apr 07How is a significant portion of the Indian subcontinent along with much of Africa and parts of southern/midwestern USA a “niche and pocket”? You know that India alone has hundreds of millions of people living in rural conditions, right, David? There’s billions of people who may be coming on to the Internet in the next 10 years, and they might not do so under the best of circumstances. Why do you disregard all those people? Because they live in poor countries?
Are you going to answer the reasonable objections that have been brought up honestly, David, or are you just going to continue talking to down to us? Do you really think we’re that stupid that you can’t talk to someone like a human being?
I guess I forgot that a 20-something can know everything and therefore there’s no need to care about others’ opinions. Quick, David, launch into another moralizing “Railssss/Getting Real/whatever isss about…” speech.
Craig
on 02 Apr 07I’m with DHH and 37signals on this one.
Making web apps work offline feels like a huge temporary crutch. The world is moving more online than offline. Why develop backwards?
Making apps optimized for online use work offline is not a simple flip of the switch. It’s significant work. Putting in that much effort to build a temporary bridge to yesterday seems like a bad place for a company to spend their precious resources.
Go 37 for thinking ahead and resisting the urge to hang on to the past. Online is where it’s at.
masukomi
on 02 Apr 07We’ve got a number of end users in China and i have to agree with the observations that net access is NOT ubiquitous or always on. We’re lucky if some of them can get online once a day and that’s only with a modem.
We also have a lot of sales people who use our apps and they are frequently out of the office, in a car, on a plane, in a hotel, on location with a client. You can get net access in a hotel but not always and not in all countries. Clients don’t always want you connecting to their net because sales people are notoriously bad when it comes to computer security and their laptops are frequently riddled with viruses and malware.
So, yeah, we have a very real need for offline webapps.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07Craig: Couldn’t agree with you more.
But even last Friday at work Qwest took out our T1 line and left my company unable to get to the internet or use our phones.
So then what? Sit around losing money (in a health-care clinic)?
Jeremy Mims
on 02 Apr 07Wow. The fact that you can’t see how useful it would be for salespeople to be able access their client data in Highrise or Basecamp while offline is truly stunning. I don’t always have access to the internet when I’m in a cab, on the metro, or just sitting in a park or coffee shop trying to get work done. And if I need a break from being connected, it’s really rather simple. All my gizmos and gadgets can switch off. ;-) I think what you’re really upset about isn’t online/offline apps, but about the feeling that if you can work, you have to.
For many of us, we do our best work when the e-mails aren’t flooding the inbox, the IMs aren’t popping up every now and then, and the phone isn’t ringing. But for an awful lot of people who use your applications, offering mixed online/offline use would actually be giving them the opportunity to get the hell out of the office, get some real work done in a surrounding that doesn’t make them crazy, and then get back to the IMs and the RSS feeds and the constant e-mail barrage modern productivity has become.
Craig
on 02 Apr 07OMG! What if I’m offline and I can’t buy a song from the iTunes music store? I curse you Apple for not understanding what it’s like to be a music lover in rural Alabama!
Get over it people. Being offline and away from your precious software and data is OK sometimes. It’s beneficial, in fact.
Varun Mathur
on 02 Apr 07Offline access for web applications is an ironic thing (an oxymoron!). Web apps by definition aren’t meant to work offline.
The issue isn’t that connectivity isn’t so good in some parts of Africa,etc. This is about EXISTING users being able to use the app in MORE places. But that gap is being narrowed everyday, so those promoting offline capability (like Adobe Apollo) are fighting against the growing trend.
Offline is generally useful, but not necessarily critical (depends on the app).
The buzz about offline web apps recently is fairly bizarre…and yeah I agree with JF that once in a while it is a good idea to be disconnected :)
Al
on 02 Apr 07@Craig iTunes has an offline mode, you can still play your tunes, unlike Highrise customer or Basecamp project data. Think of a better example
beto
on 02 Apr 07My thoughts exactly.
Even though I have a laptop and get to fly for business once in a while, what I actually need some times is a chance to unplug myself from it all. Life’s already too hectic to kill one of the few precious times where I can actually be free of the lots of annoying distractions I encounter every day at the office.
Those complaining about not getting online access 24/7 just smacks me of desperate addiction bordering on the neurotic. Yes, you can survive without your e-mail for a few hours. The world didn’t come to an end in the past because we had to wait weeks instead of seconds to get a response. And for the healthcare worker who requires 24/7 availability, tell me, seriously, how much can you positively solve and “get done” remotely at 30.000 feet?
matt
on 02 Apr 07You nailed it David. I could care less about offline capabilities. I’m much more interested in figuring out how to stay online all the time. Even if I can work offline, who cares? It will only be piecemeal apps and I use several at the same time: email, multiple web apps, IM/campfire, Skype to work. IMO this is just silly, except for the occasional niche use. Without full network access, my laptop is close to a paper weight.
matt
on 02 Apr 07To someguy: player hater
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07Those complaining about not getting online access 24/7 just smacks me of desperate addiction bordering on the neurotic. Yes, you can survive without your e-mail for a few hours. The world didn’t come to an end in the past because we had to wait weeks instead of seconds to get a response. And for the healthcare worker who requires 24/7 availability, tell me, seriously, how much can you positively solve and “get done” remotely at 30.000 feet?
AMEN!!! Thank you for posting this.
Robert Sayre
on 02 Apr 07Depends on your business model. For 37 Signals, I get the feeling it doesn’t justify the effort. If you’re trying to build an app that competes with existing desktop software, you’ll want to match offline capabilities, or you’ll never unseat the incumbent (think google spreadsheets). It’s also necessary to prevent customer data loss. You don’t want your spreadsheet to lose your data if you drop the wifi connection and need to shut down.
I agree that it makes it a lot harder to write a webapp, so it will probably be the domain of companies with lots of bodies to throw at the problem for a little while yet.
Oren
on 02 Apr 07Hmmm. No we don’t need to access everything all the time. How about letting us decide when we do or do not want to access something. I know how to shut down an application.
Bill
on 02 Apr 07Riiiight, the internet is everywhere because you can get it in your upscale neighborhood of Chicago. Mommy probably doesn’t let you out the back gate much does she?
Connectivity for much of the world is still the exception not the rule.
And you don’t have to go too far to learn the internet isn’t everywhere. Get your mom to drive you four hours out of Chicago and then get a few miles off of the highway in central Wisconsin and see how well your cute iPhone works.
Just try and get a reliable tcp/ip connection there.
This is because once you get away from the flat lands of Chicago things like trees, hills and mountains block radio signals. For this reason ubiquitous cellular service in hilly states like Pennsylvania is never going to happen.
But you probably don’t have to go that far. Try and get relaible network connectivity on the subway or in the less gentrified neighborhoods.
This is why IBM has put so much into products like DB2everyplace. You need to get out more and see how real people use data in their regular jobs. And let me tell you there’s a lot more to the real world than salespeople and techies.
Try to convince someone who actually relies on data even if a connection to the internet is not always available: say a state trooper or farmer, mine boss or tribal chief. I’d like to see you tell them “@# you, your data doesn’t matter” to their face. You might be learn something from their reply, even if the lesson is don’t be such a smartass.
Simon
on 02 Apr 07I didn’t mind the profanity – it adds a little personality, dontchathink?
And you know what – it’s good to be offline sometimes too.
I would guess that if you absolutely must be online all of the time and you absolutely must have access to all of your data, all of the time then I guess that 37s products aren’t quite right for you at the moment…
I have a feeling that offline web apps and all the messy sync’ing that will involve will make us party like it’s 1999…
JF
on 02 Apr 07Bill:
Riiiight, the internet is everywhere because you can get it in your upscale neighborhood of Chicago. Mommy probably doesn’t let you out the back gate much does she?
Then you go on to say…
You might be learn something from their reply, even if the lesson is don’t be such a smartass.
No comment.
James
on 02 Apr 07Two words: shark jumping.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07I think a few folks are missing the point of those arguing for ‘offline’. It isn’t that we are obsessed with email/IM/iTunes. It isn’t that we ‘need to be online at all times’. No – it is much simpler than that. We work with data that is necessary 24/7. Which means our livelihoods are dependent on performing our jobs with this data. If data isn’t available we can’t perform our jobs and subsequently we can’t get paid.
Here is another thought: Imagine going to the hospital, one you have been to before and your information is on record. It’s an emergency this time though. You go to the front desk and they say ‘sorry – our system is down’. You say ‘don’t you have my medical record on hand?’ They say ‘nope we went to a paperless system with our new electronic medical record, all of your information is now digital. When our data-center connection gets back up we can register you for your appointment.’
If you aren’t familiar with electronic medical records search it and then tell me how you feel about your health-care information being ‘online’ while your life is ‘offline’.
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07We work with data that is necessary 24/7. Which means our livelihoods are dependent on performing our jobs with this data. If data isn’t available we can’t perform our jobs and subsequently we can’t get paid.
Oh please. this 24/7 stuff is such hyperbole. When was the last time you were up at 3:37 AM in a cab away from an internet connection?
Your data is accessible 24/7. It’s online. In the cloud. But being in a cab at 4:00am is the edgiest of edge cases. Get over it.
some guy
on 02 Apr 07JF: don’t be surprised when a poorly thought out troll of a blog post is met with poorly thought trolling comments.
maybe I speak for other people when I say that I take issue much more with how David chose to make his point than what he said. the inescapable trend, most likely, is ubiquitous high-quality internet access, at least in fairly developed regions. therefore considering issues of offline functionality is merely picking up the slack for lousy infrastructure development.
but David didn’t state it that way that all. and i think disregarding billions of people who live in underdeveloped regions as “niches and pockets” is highly insensitive and unprofessional. furthermore, implicitly mocking part of the goals of a Rails-related product that is in development, Slingshot, is also quite counterproductive in my view.
now, having “offline time” where you take a step away from Twitter, blogs, and all the other Internet ephemera is definitely quite valuable and healthy. but I think people would prefer to choose when to do that. having something they often depend on unavailable at the worst possible time is highly inconvenient is annoying.
this is a valuable conversation that needs to be carried out (especially with the rise of Twitter) but I would like the tone of it to be shifted to be more respectful of differing perspectives. there are two main groups of people involved thus far: people who live in developed areas where they’re always in or near connectivity, and people in isolated areas stuck with lousy infrastructure. starting the conversation between these two perspectives using the word “fuck” (which actually doesn’t bother me, personally) and exclamation points is not the way to go.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07Oh please. this 24/7 stuff is such hyperbole. When was the last time you were up at 3:37 AM in a cab away from an internet connection?
Get over it.
Wow. Why hadn’t I thought of that response when patients show up at our clinic? Brilliant.
Michael F Booth
on 02 Apr 07Yes, yes, yes: there are people without reliable network connections who need to use their computers anyway.
But most of these people are not web-app customers, and they’re probably not going to be. They are using desktop apps, the way all of us used to do before broadband came along.
DHH’s modest suggestion is that the set of people who are on the fence - who are connected enough to use Web apps at all, yet disconnected enough that they are seriously inconvenienced - is too small to be worth the pursuit. Those who do pursue them will have to write Slingshot or Apollo apps that can beat real, native Mac and Windows applications on their own turf. Ask your local Java programmer how well that’s worked in the past.
Craig
on 02 Apr 07and i think disregarding billions of people who live in underdeveloped regions as “niches and pockets” is highly insensitive and unprofessional.
You’re the one being insensitive. You’re assuming these billions of people in underdeveloped regions have the same problems as you.
As if these people give a damn about the 24/7 need to have access to data while you are in a cab going to a client meeting. That’s your problem, not their problem.
These “billions of people in underdeveloped regions” probably 1. have other things to worry about such as food, fresh water, shelter, the mortality rate, disease, and 2. wouldn’t even have a modern computer or browser to even use any of this software anyway.
Computers aren’t necessary. Software isn’t necessary. Ubiquitious data isn’t necessary. They are all luxuries. These billions in underdeveloped regions aren’t worried about luxuries, they are worried about surviving and feeding their families.
Craig
on 02 Apr 07Why hadn’t I thought of that response when patients show up at our clinic?
And your clinic has web access, right? YOU need it, the patient with kidney stones in the cab doesn’t. And if your clinic doesn’t have web access then you wouldn’t have signed up for a web-app.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07Micheal: Point well taken.
I can agree with your point about taking on the desktop environment. It does not however remove the need to get data. If that data is setup in a traditional n-tier architecture – the argument remains.
Clint
on 02 Apr 07Craig: My clinic has 5 locations here in Phoenix. All connected by ‘the web’.
Web app isn’t the point here. Data is the point. Web app is the medium. If the data is on a sql box at the data-center and the T1 is down – my ‘web app’ is also down. Unless I have ‘offline’ abilities.
Really truly consider n-tier architectures and failure points and you will start to recognize the need for some method of offline ability.
Robin Barooah
on 02 Apr 07I live in San Francisco and I have 2 wi-fi routers at home. All of the cafes I go to have free wi-fi, and all of the offices I’ve worked at over the past 5 years have had wi-fi connectivity as well as high bandwidth fixed line connections. I am therefore one of the people who is luxuriating in ubiquitous bandwidth.
I’ve also paid for more than one backpack account for both personal and commercial uses because it was easier to set up and use than any of the alternatives.
Web based apps, though are much less reliable than desktop ones. I have experienced the following:
1. At busy times, the NAT table in the router at the local cafe is sometimes too full and even though I can connect, I just can’t make tcp connections :-(
2. Some of my neighbors have 2.4GHz phones. Once or twice a week my wi-fi connection is interrupted – sometimes for a minute or two, but sometimes for hours.
3. My cable provider has had technical problems or outages a few times in the past couple of years.
4. In one office, other people tenants having work done in the telecoms room occasionally caused connection problems for us.
5. Sometimes, for no reason that I can diagnose (presumably because there’s all sorts of other people’s equipment in the chain) a web operations just fails, and sometimes data is lost. Most recently this happened to me with Google Spreadsheet, but it’s happened with backpack in the past.
6. Occasionally, my browser crashes or ‘goes slow’ – yeah – I know I’m sure if I used firefox all the time, I’d be in heaven – but most people don’t use firefox.
The result is that for me, web applications are simply nowhere near as reliable as desktop applications.
And reliability is pretty important.
Imagine a new car company appeared on the scene and offered a range of cars that were identical to BMWs in every way – but, approximately 1 day in 100, without any warning, the car would not be where you parked it, and would be returned anything up to an hour later – and even then sometimes only if you called the service center.
These cars would never ever serve their basic purpose as well as a regular car. Even if they were made cheaper, or given more advanced features for free, they still wouldn’t be as good as doing what most people want their cars to do.
Personally, I think this analogy does apply to things like address books, calendars, notepads, filing cabinets. There are enough unreliable things in life without adding unreliability to things like these.
As to the ‘it’s beneficial to be away from software and data’ points – personally, I agree that it’s good to get away from it all.
Similarly, It’s beneficial to take exercise, but that doesn’t mean that I want to have a man from the cable company show up at random and make me go jogging at gunpoint.
On my way to an important meeting (and everyone has important meetings – not just yuppies), if I realize I’ve forgotten an important piece of information, I’d prefer to be able to just open my laptop in the back of the cab and take a look, rather than suddenly having to race the clock in a mission-impossible style race for a workable internet cafe probably involving a credit card.
Suffice it to say – I disagree with DHH on this. The world he describes is not real yet.
figgy
on 02 Apr 07I think the author of this blog post is not only flat out wrong, he is also only expressing his opinion and agenda. Not everyone has his same life. I’m not saying that off line web apps are the way to go either, although I do support the movement wholeheartedly.
I’m just saying there is a flaw in the logic behind this blog post: Perhaps you should do a study and get some facts fist OR just post your opinion, but not unfounded scribbles.
figgy.
some guy
on 02 Apr 07It was implicit in talking about data availability that more fundamental issues of survival are taken care of. There are many, many people who are above the level of struggling to survive but far below the living standards typical of Europe and America. This is the target group that is the impetus for the OLPC project. Strictly speaking it is not necessary for them to have computers. But computers offer the hope for partially filling in the void that underdeveloped education systems and infrastructure leave out. And for this subset of people, the issue of offline/online is relevant.
Thomas Aylott
on 02 Apr 07When did blog comment sections become lobotomized forums?
Tom H.
on 02 Apr 07While I completely agree with the notion or sentiment of the post, the execution could have been a bit better… depending on what you were trying to achieve.
If the goal was to make a point and get people to look at online and offline in different light I think you missed. However, if you were just venting your frustration and wanted to poke a hole in the hornets nest, then Bravo… you nailed it.
When you come out and belittle the needs or desires of others, not matter how misguided they may be you’re gonna make some folks mad by insulting them and their priorities. It might not matter to you, but you lost customers with this post. I bet 37signals is kicking so much ass right now that a few customers in exchange for a random, smart ass comment seems like a fair trade but I wouldn’t make a habit of this type of commentary.
Deeply Disturbed
on 02 Apr 07Those of us who is incarcerated don’t get alway on internet. Man, you ain’t been in the joint has you?
MT Heart
on 02 Apr 07JF:”It’s OK not to be connected. It’s OK not to have access to something all the time. It’s OK to have to use pen and paper sometime. It’s OK to actually not be able to get something done right this second.”
You bet. I often spend time at the coffee shop or Panera or where ever with my Moleskine just sketching, writing, making notes. Even when I can be connected, sometimes I choose not to.
Hasan Luongo
on 02 Apr 07it seems that the problem is a little more important than David thought. On the international (non u.s) front it is huge, but even in the US with broadband cards and hotspots it is always a bit shoddy with frequent disconnects or weak signals.
to me the problem is basic – if you rely on an app for a critical task, it is much, much better be able to access the data anywhere, anytime, when you “the user” needs it. While the developers opinion can be important, the only thing a paying customer should or deos care about is their needs.
Bob
on 02 Apr 07I always remember hearing that Google became successful not by being good at “most” searches, but good at the really edge cases that no one expected it to get right.
So while designing for “most” uses can be ok for an initial product strategy, as the market gets more competitive it’s those little things that people base their decisions on.
Chris D
on 02 Apr 07It seems sorta weird to rely on web apps if you live in a region or operate in an environment where there is no suitable online connection. If that’s your situation, why not just use desktop apps?
Web apps, of course, are probably easier to develop than desktop apps. And so you have more choice – sexier choices as well. But if it doesn’t fit your situation, then it would seem a poor choice. There are still a lot of great shareware developers out there who will offer some nifty solutions usually at a less expensive price than the common subscription model.
That said, web apps are really apps-within-apps. And being confined to a common browser, despite what’s inside of it, is not always pleasing. Browsers are not very attractive. And when you’re using a web application your UI is, at a minimum, doubled (more with plugins). Despite all of the push for solid web UX, “elegance” is difficult to achieve with this constraint.
Rachel
on 02 Apr 07Wow, people are sensitive about their off-line apps :) You know, I was on the fence about this, mostly because I foresee WAY too many apps going offline that don’t really need to be. ie, the eBay demo for Apollo? I just don’t get it. How many people are that desperate to fill out the auction details when they don’t have internet? It’s not going online then anyway, you still have to wait for a connection for it to be posted. Yes, I’m sure there are exceptions for people, say the guy whose business depends solely on eBay auctions and has an hour commute with access to a laptop but no connection. But I’d say this isn’t the majority of eBay users.
I can see that offline would be imperative for some people and useful for others, but I have to agree with DHH here. I think maybe his initial wording was a little strong, but if you read his last statement “Just that for most people, most of the time, it couldn’t matter less.” I think that’s likely true. For the majority of consumers (American office-workers) for the majority of the time, it won’t matter ALL that much. Sure, there are the occasional times when it will matter and there’s the subset of people for which it will matter a LOT. But for most people it probably won’t make a huge difference. Now, I don’t think that it means that it shouldn’t be done. I just don’t think it’s going to be as revolutionary as it initially sounds. For the average person, I think it will be helpful for the occasions when you don’t have a connection but you do have a laptop and you’ve forgotten a phone number, need to check something on your calendar, etc. but I just don’t think that’s going to be a constant need for the normal user.
One thing I can see is maybe making it an easier transition for the average joe to migrate from desktop apps to your web app. I know LOTS of non-techies who really aren’t comfortable yet with the idea of storing their data in a web app and not having it in, say, outlook or word or whatever. But if you as a web app can say “look, you can use us like a desktop app OR a web app” I can see the people on the fence start to feel more comfortable with the idea. I think there are some people who will like it because it feels more like what they know and how they use computers. Google docs or Highrise would be a fabulous use for this for the people who weren’t ready to make the jump to their files and data being online-only (or online-primarily).
Todd Zaki Warfel
on 02 Apr 07We’re actually building an off-line version of our web-based product. We don’t expect to have to use it too often, but the times we need it are critical. We were doing some research last fall for a Pharma company – couldn’t get on-line due to network security issues (nevermind that we all use Macs). No internet = no application = no worky.
Yes, we could have used paper. We actually used excel to track stuff then moved it into our app. But that really sucked – lost productivity and duplicated efforts.
Bill
on 02 Apr 07JF, I don’t know what exactly you’re trying to imply with your taciturn “no comment” and use of bold within a quote. Nice mastery of the cut and paste though!
Sufice it to say, I don’t suffer twits lightly. My tech skills are hardened by providing service, not excuses. I believe technology is to serve a need, not the other way around.
Perhaps you have seen that new Tesla movie, The Presitige. There is a theme in the film quite germane to this discussion. In the film they talk about the difference between a magician and a wizard: the magician makes an illusion, the wizard makes it happen. From what I can see, you boys are just doing card tricks. Good showmanship, but still it’s just tricks.
To say “There are so many ways to get online these days that the excitement for offline is truly puzzling” shows either a profound lack of imagination or a sleight of hand to confuse customers about their requirements and avoid doing the heavy lifting. I find it an insulting statement.
Straight out of school I worked as a network programmer in the far North and was flown into service remote communities that can become more violent than anything they can throw at you in Chicago. Places where buildings are often entirely surrounded by cages, the only way out is by plane and they lock you up at night to keep you safe. These places were truly bush league. No fancy Macs, just a lot of buggy hardware. You needed to invent magic on a regular basis just to survive.
One example of where your 37signals philosophy would have failed misearbly was an emergency job at a mining camp where they flew me in to fix the payroll software on a Friday. It was made quite clear when I arrived that if I did’t get it fixed before the banks closed the boys don’t get paid and then they won’t get to drink that weekend. I was told in no uncertain terms by the camp boss that it would get quite violent if I failed.
Those sort of clients don’t take crap like “sorry, the data is offline so you don’t need to access it.” I couldn’t just wuss out and come up with 37 excuses or I’d literally be dead. Instead, I made it happen.
See, I can mock your illusions, because I know how to make real things happen. My work is about results, not excuses. That’s not being a smartass, it’s being a bad ass. So until you can tell the difference, don’t leave the backyard—just stay home and practice your magic tricks. It’s a rough world out there. A world that needs solutions not excuses.
The problem of disconnected computing is huge. It won’t go away by ignoring it. Telling people it just doesn’t matter is insulting. I am sure in your little niche it’s a good enough model. As long as your clients aren’t too concerned with data integrity or availability it’s just fine as a software model.
I think your main problem is that you write fluff software that you know isn’t necessary and doesn’t necessarily work as needed. I say this because you say stuff like “People feel like they can’t get work done unless they are using software. I find that a little sad.”
If software is just a cute diversion, what’s the fucking point lad!? Many people posting here have given examples of mission critical software from Ag apps to medical records systems. I don’t feel any pity for the reliance on software. Maybe you should pursue a different field if you do not find your work relevant. You sound like you’d be better suited as an ad man.
Our world is made by software. By writing software we are making the world. We make international air travel possible. We make modern healthcare possible (and not just records keeping but equipment such as MRI’s and all of the lab research, too). We are the backbone to the world economy.
It would be great if everything could be online 24/7 but it’s just not going to happen. People need to access data even if they can’t access the internet. And the internet is so new and unreliable it’s going to be some time before it can be considered truly ubiquitous and reliable. We have to accept it may never be.
As programmers it is our duty to write software that helps people do their jobs, not force people to bow to our constraints because we are lazy. It is our duty to make the world, not fake it.
Xavier
on 02 Apr 07I’m a big fan of web apps, but let’s be realistic. It can be tough to get a WiFi signal, even in the heart of Silicon valley. Companies should offer users options, not restrict them.
Daniel Higginbotham
on 02 Apr 07This sounds a little like “640K ought to be enough for anybody.” Maybe offline web apps will be ragingly popular. Maybe they won’t. Who knows? Why spend all this time and energy speculating about it?
I also don’t understand why commentors have taken David’s comments so personally. “Insensitive”? “Smartass”? “Belittling”? Do you really need DHH’s validation so badly that you feel smaller because he says you probably don’t need offline access to all your online data?
Not Bill (thankfully)
on 02 Apr 07Bill, it doesn’t sound like you should be using a web app then. That’s your bad choice, not the maker of the web app. The web app maker makes apps that require internet access. That’s what a web app is. If you don’t have internet access, or your connection isn’t reliable, then you should be using a desktop app.
Do you fault Yahoo or Google for not allowing you to search their indexes without internet access? They have data you could probably use in a pinch, but you can’t get to it because you don’t have the web.
SH
on 02 Apr 07@Bill: You are so right on one key point: The Prestige was a great movie!
Me
on 02 Apr 07“Bill, it doesn’t sound like you should be using a web app then.”
Since when do only web apps require network or internet access?
Bill, you are right on the money!
LC
on 02 Apr 07Bill++
The Pageman
on 02 Apr 07hi Daniel, I’ve lived in Afghanistan, Dubai, UAE, Manila, Singapore and Rangoon, Burma and … surprise! surprise! I’m more likely to get a wi-fi connection in Kabul, Afghanistan both in the city and in the airport. It’s hard and expensive to get a connection in Dubai unless you want to pay through your nose with all those prepaid cards. I’m sure it’s easy to get access in Singapore but in Rangoon, you still need to go to an Internet Cafe. Manila is very, very spotty although airborneaccess.net and its competitor are slowly blanketing Manila. So, yes, for many places in the world – offline access is still a NEED :) but not for long, I HOPE!
Daniel Higginbotham
on 02 Apr 07Bill R
on 02 Apr 07OK maybe a little off-topic, (and all the on-topic stuff seems pretty well covered already) but I liked DHH’s comment on “f-bomb”. I’m from Europe and I don’t know the US well, but (generalising outrageously I know) the apparent different levels of concern about sex/nudity (eg Superbowl Wardrobegate) versus concern about violence seem to be quite different on each side of the Atlantic. Sorry American friends if I have misunderstood!
Chris
on 02 Apr 07You can lament it, or relegate it to obscure hypothecial situations like being on a plane, or wanting to check e-mail but not being able to, but the fact remains that the desire is there.
Think about mobile. More and more stuff is moving into the domain of the cell phone, and Opera’s just released a beta of its Platform product, designed specifically for offering Ajax-type functionality to mobile browsers. How might you port, say, a super-simple app like Tada to the mobile phone without requiring a connection? Wouldn’t it be easier on the airtime charges to be able to queue up requests and send them only when you’re good and ready, rather than one at a time?
The reason the problem’s getting so much attention is that it’s an important one to solve. You can complain about it, but once it’s there, people are really going to appreciate the option of using it.
JF
on 02 Apr 07Think about mobile. More and more stuff is moving into the domain of the cell phone, and Opera’s just released a beta of its Platform product, designed specifically for offering Ajax-type functionality to mobile browsers.
I think the web browsing/using experience on mobiles is terrible. Screens are small, pages are big. The CPU power on most phones results in really slow renders too. Problem.
The iPhone zooming browser seems like a clever solution. It’s the only once I’ve seen that comes close to a realistic solution. But it only works because the screen is pretty big and high rez to begin with.
But I believe the idea of the people actually using full-featured web apps on their tiny phone screens is more marketing promise than reality.
Yes, some people will do it. And yes some people already do. And I’m sure some of those people think they can’t live without it, but I can only go on what I know: The highest tech people I know with the latest and coolest phones curse the web experience on the phone. It’s just a crappy experience. It has to get 10x better and that’s going to require more than a new Opera browser.
It’s not just the browser software, it’s the whole stack. Incomplete mobile browsers, weak CPUs on mobiles, slow renders, web-sites not formatted for mobiles, etc.
It’s hard enough to get your web app working on IE 6, 7, Firefox, and Safari. Now optimizing for one of many mobile browsers for a couple % of the market is generally not time well spent.
I think we’ll see native mobile apps that make sense (see Phonified Tracker for Basecamp mobile access, for example). But most web browsers running most web-apps on phones just doesn’t seem like the right fit to me.
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07c’mon, online web is 37signals’ main business
why should they kill the golden goose by making 37signals apps offline (is it possible to hide the html/css/js source code?)
hey maybe if there’s a way to close source (say a flash) ... then maybe 37signals will give an offline version
till then i don’t see any reason why 37signals should un-deliberately ‘open-source’ their web apps
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07Anonymous Coward, that was totally not the point they were making.
I think 37signals should shut off their servers periodically and without warning so everybody can enjoy some peace and quiet.
BS&S
on 02 Apr 07JF, DHH: I think you’re missing the perspective.
It’s not about sullying our private time with more work time; it’s not about providing another intrusive way to be busy; it’s not about turning playtime into worktime…
If you accept an application into your world to help you do your job, you inevitably become dependent on it more and more. If your job requires you to be in places where there is no connectivity or times of no connectivity, up until now, there was really only one solution: To Bad: either choose an application that doesn’t require connectivity or duplicate your effort by having to transfer all your information into the system when you are back online.
With online/offline syncing (Slingshot, Flex, etc), those of us in businesses where we are struggling with using great tools in places of inconsistent connectivity, this is a huge advantage. And no, it’s not just on airplanes; it’s in houses, in buildings, in closed networks, on rooftops, in valleys, on mountains and even sometimes in Denmark. The title of this post was flame broiled and useful only for inciting an argument.
Bill
on 02 Apr 07No, Not Bill (thankfully), a standalone desktop app wouldn’t work since my users need to create, share and manipulate data across a disconnected network which is then further processed by a midrange computer. Users are mobile running smartphones… no desktop required.
All users can share the same records, and if one user updates a record all of the users will get that update. The data is on handheld devices where network connectivity is unlikely. Thus, users sync their data when possible and edits to the same records need to be accurately reflected across the userbase.
My users are doing genetic research in remote locations so it is an extreme example of disconnected computing, but the same logic can apply to a calendar, project manager or information coordinator all of which my software performs.
But I can think of other examples: State Patrol shares info so an officer can run plates even if they have no network connection, delivery companies need to share data amongst drivers who are not continuously online, even google has made their mapping info available offline through google earth and other "unofficial" applications of their API.Also, there’s nothing to stop you from saving your searches to refer to offline. Particularly on handheld devices which also make it easy to store map info from both google and yahoo and any other webpage as long as you have the memory.
Many of the 37Signals applications would work better if the data was available offline particularly backpack, highrise, and basecamp. What’s the point of a backpack if you can’t take it with you? And what will the users of the applications do when 37signals servers are down or looses your data? (And everyone goes down at sometime… gmail has lost many user account’s, godaddy was without DNS for a fairly extended period a couple weeks back just to give a few examples).
Do you really want to commit your company’s data to a third party that tells you what you want “fuckin… doesn’t matter”? Do you want that on your annual review?
“Lost our customer contact info but that’s okay since vendor said it doesn’t fuckin matter.”
This is really not a “640 k is all you’ll ever need” statement but rather a “let them eat cake” moment.
And no I don’t need DHH’s validation, but if he’s going to be a smug asshat I am not going to sit idly by as he pontificates excuses for his cheesy software. His primadonna atitude reflect poorly on the profession.
There are times data needs to be available offline and just because his software can’t provide doesn’t make the need less valid. In fact all he needs to do is say that, not some tired software sales schlock that not being able to work offline is a feature that should be cherished rather than a bug due to zealous oversight.
Do you really need to be teathered to an available wifi connection or cellular network to use your calendar or contact info!? I don’t know what universe they live in but I can think of many office buildings that have large brown/blackouts of these services and 37Signals software just won’t work. Do you want to trust your job to that?
I can think of many simple work arounds that they just seem too lazy to impliment and would rather patronize their frustrated users saying they feel sad for them if they can’t get work done without software. WTF!? Users don’t want fucking pity, they want solutions that work all of the time not just when the stars allign.
Relying on 37signals to send a reminder to your cellphone is like relying on the front desk for a wake up call… it may or may not happen because you may or may not have a signal depending on your location. At least if you miss it, you will get their pity for relying on it.
Wouldn’t it be easier to have the alarm deployed locally? Oh wait, I can already do that on my existing phone. In fact, I can do everything 37 signals software does without their software or a network connection and without having to pay for the patronizing attitide. So really I am not complaining about the software itself, but the bad tone 37signals sets for the entire software industry.
JoyentCEO_O7
on 02 Apr 07Here are some of the reasons Joyent developed Slingshot. Only one of them has to do with offline.
Deeply Disturbed
on 02 Apr 07Wow, I feels like I need hug
Tim
on 02 Apr 07I consult with large companies, and it is the current style to not allow consultants any access to the outside world at all. I don’t get email, often the buildings don’t allow phones, no chat, and usually no intranet or internet connection at all (wired or wireless). Where the connectivity is strong for the employee, the rest of us (the mobile folks who might be interested in web-hosted apps) quite often have no connection at all.
That’s in ADDITION to the planes, trains, and automobies, rural areas, and what-have-you.
somenice
on 02 Apr 07I want an online photoshop that works offline. Oh, and I want to pay what most online apps cost; free.
ML
on 02 Apr 07Past = Offline apps.
Present = Mix of online/offline apps.
Future = Online apps.
Skate to where the puck is going to be.
Ben
on 02 Apr 07First off: ML (above): BS
This discussion intrigues me. First of all—37signals: Why the attitude? What’s the big deal. Stop overcompensating to prove that your young and hip and “not corporate”. Chill out. You can make a point without sounding pissed off all the time.
Second: I do agree that “away time” is ESSENTIAL and very sorely missing these days. Over-connectedness is epidemic. So I’m with you there.
Third: I think you’ve just squandered a bunch of “political capital” that you gained last week. I recall reading glowing comments of praise when you quickly adapted Highrise to meet the needs of your customers. Today, you’ve just pissed a bunch of people off again. Good goin’.
Chris Eidhof
on 02 Apr 07I always read and write longer e-mails while commuting in the train, it’s a one-hour ride. That’s the reason I use normal clients, otherwise I would have switched to gmail for everything.
Also, while I normally have internet everywhere, I was cut off for a couple of weeks when I moved. And yeah, it’s great not to be online for a couple of hours, a couple of days, or a week, but it’s starting to get annoying that you can’t access your stuff after more than one day.
The final argument is purely emotional: it just feels safe to have access to all your stuff at anytime, and not be entirely dependent on one party. What if gmail went down for a day?
One of the hardest things about software development is feeling how the users feel, and adapting to different cultures. And though I generally think you guys are doing a good job on it, this can come off as just being lazy or ignorant. You are awesome developers, but there’s a lot of stuff to explore on the more social aspect of software.
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07What if gmail went down for a day?
Gmail is probably 1000x more reliable than your personal computer. Just because your data is local it doesn’t mean it’s safe. If fact, storing your data online with companies with multiple servers and redundant systems is the smarter move. Assuming your data is safer because it’s on your own laptop is the emotional but less prudent move.
Tom H.
on 02 Apr 07DHH: Just curious, did you expect this kind of response or did you just think it would be a passing post? More than once in my life I’ve made an off-hand comment that really started a fire… I remember each one and I really wish I would have thought it through.
Does this thread change your opinion at all, or are the users and potential users need for an offline app still irrelevant?
BTW, I agree with Tim’s comment above. In my business, we are frequently forced to surrender our phones and cameras when we enter a building. We can take computers without access cards but there are no connections available. I can think of at least a dozen other professions I see in there that deal with the same thing.
If my data was offline as well as online my job, and many others would be much easier. That matters… maybe not to you, but to me it does.
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07“Assuming your data is safer because it’s on your own laptop is the emotional but less prudent move.”
say that when the online app is down say that when the isp is down say that when the power grid is down
and why it’s not prudent to put my trust on something i have complete control of?
Pius Uzamere
on 02 Apr 07Obviously we all have our opinions, so here’s mine. This is a “let them eat cake” moment indeed. This post smacks of utter cluelessness about the digital divide and life outside of the urban upper-crust, Starbucks-addled, MacBook Pro toting lifestyle in which many of us are fortunate enough to indulge.
Usually this kind of post comes wrapped in a “let someone else solve that problem” sort of deal. I get that, even respect it at times. But to imply that the urban affluence you enjoy is just par for the course for all consumers and then try to monkey-patch the gaffe by adding a dismissive disclaimer that there are some “niches and pockets of dark holes” where it doesn’t apply is just unfortunate and shows how easy it is for industry vanguards to lock themselves in an ivory tower and never come out. News flash for you: those dark holes are actually where the majority of Americans live, let alone citizens of the Second and Third Worlds. As shocking as it might be to you, there are still some places where Wal-Marts and liquor stores outnumber Starbucks and hotspots. Accidental Elitism like this is honestly why yuppies are almost universally despised by everyone else in the world. Not everyone lives in a condo, not everyone has the money for $80 wireless data plans, not everyone lives even within 100 miles of wireless internet, free or paid. Get out more. These middle and lower class people are also trying to start businesses and enjoy the benefits of the Web.
I know I sound harsh here, but I don’t mean to be personal, just passionate. Hey, we all post stupid things (hell, in a few hours I could realize I just did the same). I respect you a lot, but I found this post to be way off the mark.
Daniel Higginbotham
on 02 Apr 07@bill (not bill): I appreciated your comments!
One application which 37s must be familiar with that I can’t see benefiting from being online only is Subversion. Why would anyone ever want svn (and version controlled application files) to be online only? Can the folks at 37 signals describe how such an online-only app would work, and why it would be better than what’s currently available?
DHH
on 02 Apr 07Tom H, from lots of previous experience, I know that saying “fucking” or “fuck” offends some people. That’s fine. I’m offended by “f-bomb” (see explanation above). But I cope.
I didn’t quite expect the “he doesn’t care about poor people” bullshit as the excitement I was dismissing was about making the class of software that 37signals belong to become offlineable.
If you’re paying $5+/month for a piece of productivity software like that, you’re unlikely to live in a small Chinese village somewhere wondering where your next cup of rice is coming from. That’s why I talked about consumers (“people who buy stuff like this”), not people in general.
But it’s certainly interesting to see the passion some people have for this topic. Even if I think a fair amount of it is irrational or overstated or off-target, it’s still real. And disagreement is usually a good thing.
I put a public bet out saying “I don’t think this is going to matter that much” and others are betting “I think it’ll matter greatly”. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
John Koetsier
on 02 Apr 07Whoa. Tempest in a teapot, here. David, you really stirred up the hornet’s nest.
My opinion: offline is important. Online isn’t ubiquitous, and where it is, isn’t always easily available or free. It won’t be ubiquitous for years, possibly decades.
This is OK if your app is a blogging tool or something else that is only relevant online (oh wait, there’s offline blog editors too). But it’s not OK if your app becomes mission critical for an organization, a sales rep, a travelling business person.
(Oh, and btw, the f-word really wasn’t necessary either. Obviously, you’ve been getting some input/feedback that you haven’t been liking, and this post was your release valve. That in itself ought to be a clue.)
Mike
on 02 Apr 07DHH and Jason… Your customers are the ones making responses to this blog post. I have never seen two high-level people in a company talk to so many of their customers like this, in such a public way. You are basically telling us all to fuck off, and if anyone else doesn’t like it, they can fuck off too.
Congratulations.. you have a couple of successful products. It doesn’t mean people are going to bow down to your over-inflated egos.
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07ML—that’s a flawed analogy. If tools like Joyent’s Slingshot can make it easy to put Rails apps offline RIGHT NOW, it’s foolish to build for a future that may be years away. That analogy really only works if the puck is moving as quickly as in a hockey game or the player is much slower than the Rails developer can be with Slingshot (etc.).
JF
on 02 Apr 07DHH and Jason… Your customers are the ones making responses to this blog post.
When we run customer surveys we hear back from thousands of our customers. We run these surveys a few times a year. We’ve been running them for 3 years now. We know a lot about what our customers actually want.
Over three years I can count less than 10-15 requests out of thousands and thousands of requests for anything having to do with “offline access.” It has been mentioned, yes, but it barely registers a blip all things considered.
All sorts of things are mentioned and requested. Almost everything you can imagine, but barely any mentions of offline access as being such a necessity—especially no where near the level of the comments here on SvN.
I reckon our SvN commenters and our actual customers are a difference bunch and a different breed with different needs and priorities. Of course there’s some overlap, but relatively little when comparing actual feedback on the customer level.
As David said, disagreement is good. It brings out passions and passions are good. We often post things that we think will excite these passions.
It’s always entertaining and informative to read the comments here on SvN, but it’s also important to keep in mind that comments on a blog (many of the anonymous or pseudo-anonyous) do not always represent our customer base as whole.
Anonymous Coward
on 02 Apr 07Man, some people around here are way too sensitive about software and internet connections. Get a life people.
Rob Cameron
on 02 Apr 07ML said: “Skate to where the puck is going to be.”
Won’t that be the world where internet is everywhere and we’ll have the opportunity to be connected all the time? The exact thing that this thread says is pointless? If the future of the world is online apps (and a paperless society) then we better be able to get online from anywhere at any time!
And just because the internet is available on the plane doesn’t mean it becomes an office. Everyone still has the choice not to use their computer.
ML
on 02 Apr 07Rob, I was talking in terms of building software. Whether we like it or not, the world is moving toward “connected all the time.” Building software that deals with the reality of this future (as opposed to spending resources on solving offline/online integration) is what I meant by “Skate to where the puck is going to be.”
Jim
on 02 Apr 07Duh. You mean people who have already bought something that requires connectivity don’t require offline access? You don’t say! Surveying people who have already accepted one of your limitations to see how many people accept your limitations is an exercise in ego-inflation, not something to base business decisions on.
~bc
on 02 Apr 07Riddle to me this: if people want mixed online/offline access (like myself) why would they buy your online app, then answer a survey and ask for offline access?
If I need a car with wheels, I don’t buy one without wheels, then wait for a survey to ask for them.
Ridiculous.
This is why I haven’t bought any of your other apps beyond Basecamp (and often ask myself why I haven’t stopped paying for this, which I don’t use nearly as much I as should).
The future is hybrid web apps that can operate without the cloud.
Skate there.
Tom H.
on 03 Apr 07DHH: “fuck” or any other derivative doesn’t bother me, that’s not my point. I cuss like a trucker on Meth most of the time, but not to my customers… unless they’re trash mouth people.
My point was the flippant attitude about requests from customers… or wanna be customers. You’re right when you say paying customers probably aren’t living in some remote village wondering where your next cup of whatever is coming from. We’re spending a $100/month on Highrise and we’re connected in our homes, offices, and every time we stop at Starbucks so thats clearly missing the point. The problem, I (and others) are talking about isn’t the office or home. It’s the gaps… spending time with customers at their offices or in the field, pulling over in a parking lot on your way to a meeting to grab last minute info, etc. Sure they’re small gaps but they’re gaps nonetheless.
I wouldn’t handle a problem this way but then again, I have to look my customers in the face. It’s different when you’re a couple thousand miles away from the people you’re telling off.
P.S. – This is definitely one of the most interesting comment threads I’ve seen in a while.
nonsense
on 03 Apr 07What a load of crap. What world are you living in? I can’t get a connection, less a reliable one.
Anonymous Coward
on 03 Apr 07What a load of crap. What world are you living in? I can’t get a connection, less a reliable one.
Then you’ll probably not want to use a web app. This discussion doesn’t apply to you then.
Casey Marshall
on 03 Apr 07So if I develop my offline web app in Python instead of Rails, wouldn’t that be some Snakes on a Plane?
(I’m sorry to interrupt this serious intelligent technical discussion with my bad jokes)
OnATrain
on 03 Apr 07I’m on a train for between 120 and 150 minutes (total) each day commuting to and from work. While on my way to work, or on my way home, I would certainly find it useful to be able to use Basecamp while processing meeting notes and emails, instead of capturing everything to Stickies to be added to Basecamp later.
This is not some crazy pie in the sky scenario either, MILLIONS of people commute into NYC every day with commutes varying from 15 minutes to 2+ hours (each way) on a train.
Offline web applications are a necessity for web applications at all to be successful until we truly have always on connectivity. I for one don’t use Basecamp nearly as much as I would/should if offline synching were available—project management and communication suffer as a result.
If you don’t need/understand this, hooray for you—just don’t make any absurdly broad assumptions that it wouldn’t be profoundly useful for millions of people.
Jack
on 03 Apr 07“A break is a good thing. Being away is a good thing. It gives you a time to think, recharge, and break your addiction to glowing screens and pixels.”
weak.
let’s shut down the Internet for couple of hours per day so people can break away from their works.
Varun Mathur
on 03 Apr 07A few days ago I was on a long flight and I made the mistake of actively interacting with the on-board entertainment system. As it turned out, trying to focus on a small screen for a very long time in a very dry environment is NOT a good idea, and it left my eyes irritated for a couple of days.
So I am not too excited about being able to use apps on a plane. My feelings on this are kinda similar to what Samuel Jackson had to say about snakes in the movie “Snakes on a Plane” :D
While using an app on a plane might not be such a good idea (at least for me), web apps which can work offline could be quite useful in some situations. It is basically about data: - Being able to enter data while offline. This could be useful in a content publishing app like a blogging tool, etc. - Being able to access data while offline. Now, obviously, this will be the data which was partially downloaded to the user’s computer earlier on when he was online.
At the end of the day, offline capability for a web app is a nice-to-have feature, not essential. It’s kinda like it’ll be pretty nice if my dog would learn how to shake hands, etc. But he doesn’t care about it and neither do I. He is just a dog, and that is sufficient.
Matt Jaynes
on 03 Apr 07Wow. It’s a shame to see your success going to your heads, so that you feel free to tell much of your audience essentially “You suck and we don’t care about you” in defending a short-sighted ‘insight’. You guys have done so much in the past to foster good-will in the community. Why turn so negative and poop out bad-will on something so trivial?
It’s sad to see great companies turn for the worse. Oh well, it creates room in the market for other less jaded folks.
Matt Jaynes
on 03 Apr 07Funny, I just moved on to read some of your other posts and I found that even though they were great – I couldn’t laugh at the funny parts and couldn’t admire the clever points after reading this post.
It reminds me of when a good friend of mine yelled in my face over something trivial. I got over it mostly, but it was hard to let my guard down and just enjoy our time together after that.
Andrew
on 03 Apr 07Let’s say it is true that the only time we’re disconnected is when we’re on a plane. And let’s say that desktop apps offer no value(e.g. reduced latency and keyboard shortcuts) other than being offline. Even if these things were true, the remaining idea is that you somehow know what is best for us. We are incapable of “taking a break” by our own will—we require the grace of your not building offline capabilities for your products to live healthy and balanced lives. What is offensive about this post (as well as the 37signals book and many of the other posts on this blog) is that tone - the idea that if you don’t understand the way we do work, you certainly understand the way we should work. Sure - if asked, you’ll concede that your way is but one way, it isn’t necessarily the correct way. But as others have pointed out, the dismissive attitude of this post doesn’t conform to the “there are many right answers” concession.
Anonymous Coward
on 03 Apr 07ML, I still don’t think you’re getting it. Someday there won’t be computers at all, so shouldn’t you guys work on some sort of bionic mind implant? Sure, skate to where the puck’s going to be—but if it’s going to take 10 years to get there, you should probably worry about today as well.
Andrew
on 03 Apr 07“Future = Online apps. Skate to where the puck is going to be.”
Platitudes like this are inspiring during a reminiscence of past successes, but are worthless for justifying a current business decision.
Even if your prognosis is correct (future = online apps), you could be skating ahead of the puck. Friendster in 1993 would have been ahead of the puck.
Chris M
on 03 Apr 07Curious. A lot of arguments for online/offline, but I am still wondering what exactly it means to be “online.” The feeling here I get is that online means I am using some kind of application made to run in a web browser. I see people complaining that they cannot get to a GMail account if they loose their Internet connection. Hey, here’s an idea, why not connect that GMail account to Outlook or Apple Mail or one of the other many mail clients? You’ll have all the offline functionality you need and more. Maybe I am an exception, but I rarely every you my GMail account from a web browser. Does this mean Apple Mail is does not go online – hardly. I think the sooner we loose the need for a web application to mean something that runs in a web browser the better off we’ll be. Browser based applications and native desktop applications both have their place in the world. If the need for some kind of cross-platform in-between solution was that important don’t you think something like Java Web Start would have been a lot more successul (crappiness of Swing notwithstanding). But wait, that didn’t run in a web browser so I guess that doesn’t count.
Jean Biri
on 03 Apr 07I can think of two situations that happen to me often where desktop apps are God sent.
1) Emails. I use my desktop based client to read emails that I received on previous days but that I never read fully or replied to because I had other things to do and did not have time.
I might not have the connection to send those emails but at least, i have them ready for the next signal.
With a web based client like Gmail, I would have not been able to do do the same and that dead time on the plane would have been used to nap or chat up by neighbour which is maybe good for my health and social life respectively.
2) One reason I opted for NetNewsWire instead of Google Reader for instance is the same. Before I board a plane, I will will refresh my feeds and read the snippets or sometimes full length posts in offline mode.
I just bookmark the ones that I need to read later with an Internet connection but for the rest, it’s all good.
By the way, I am not suggesting that I spend the whole trip on the net instead of reading a book, watching a movie, chatting with fellow passengers.
But if you’re flying from North America to Brazil for instance, you will find that you could use an hour to an hour and half getting some work done.
anand kishore
on 03 Apr 07All said and done, it is all about reducing the dependency to stay connected. Although staying connected doesn’t mean a lot for most of us, it does matter in developing/undeveloped nations where the internet connectivity costs are sky high. In such scenarios it would be better if most of the work could be done offline.
Darryl Hebbes
on 03 Apr 07Americans are spoilt rotten when comes to technology. I live in South Africa, and the portion of our population that do have access to Internet, let alone electricity, access it through Internet cafes. Many save what they find onto mobile phones or USB sticks. Then they take the info home and plug it into a TV to show their family what they found. The Samsung mobiles let them do this.
Danno
on 03 Apr 07I think you guys are backing off from this because the interface for it is a hairy mess and you don’t have a god damned idea how to make it programmable.
What the fuck man? You conquered the MVC web app handily! You utterly destroyed the programmability hurdles and the problems involved with synchronizing offline changesets to an online one has you running with your tail between your legs? Hell, it’s not like that’s a space that hasn’t been studied half to death by a gajillion different version control systems.
Watch out, someone’s gonna steal yo thundah! (I bet it’ll be a Haskell framework)
James H
on 03 Apr 07When you get outside of the cities and larger towns in the USA don’t expect to get high speed internet access. I moved from a large metropolitan area back to the rural area where I was reared. High speed internet access is very spotty. I use gmail which is almost unbearably slow in loading up the app in the beginning. It so bad that I hesitate to recommend gmail to anyone who does not have some form of broadband connectivity. (Yes, I know you can use POP.)
I telecommute from a relative’s house that does have DSL. In the evenings, I do very little with the Internet except check email and read a couple of news sites.
Google’s video service is great because I can download videos and take them home. Sites like www.infoq.com and youtube.com are useless because I can’t do anything with them in the evenings.
If you want to reach more people, you should learn to make your ajax web app more friendly to people on dialup.
David Simpson O'Reilly and the Simpson Family Farm
on 03 Apr 07I’m surprised nobody has mentioned PackRat. “Take backpack offline.” Demonstrates the potential very well using the backpack API.
http://infinitenil.com/packrat/
funny
on 03 Apr 07it’s funny that someone who has lived in the Metro US for a few years knows everything about the country.
I’m glad I do not use any of 37 signals products. I’m glad I did NOT jump on the rails bandwagon. Three years from now, we’ll all look back and say “Well, they were cool, but ego’s got in the way”. Oh well, there’s always someone brighter and better ready to fill the void.
John
on 03 Apr 07We should all defect to Django unless David promptly apologizes.
And then there was Hasselhoff
on 03 Apr 07DHH Said: “I’d actually have serenity to read a book or listen to a podcast”
Isn’t that exactly what a podcast is? Offline content from an online application?
What if you could only get podcasts whilst online? User expectations are huge here. Your point about nobody asking for offline tools is because the obvious expectation from a naive market is that web apps require connectivity.
I would challenge you to consider writing your next app with the concept of disconnectivity in your minds. I bet 10:1 that it will influence a lot of your decisions for the better (of the customer), if you open your minds to the possibilities that exist in a world where your tools don’t require connectivity.
Whowhat
on 03 Apr 07A respected company using such language? I think David needs to come back to earth because the Plain he’s on is not on Earth nor a Plane.
I could care less about the whole topic. But because this company offers great products doesn’t mean anything. I think the language usage and topic is a but immature and childish from such a talked about and respected company. But then again, Dave sounds a bit 12ish and thats why I no longer have any respect for him..
You have to have enough money by now to have more impressive things to do instead writing about how you are affected by this sort of nonsense. I know I do but then again, I did reply, but I never make posts in such a manner.
Craig
on 03 Apr 07I like Ryan’s take on it.
Craig
on 03 Apr 07Wow. It’s a shame to see your success going to your heads, so that you feel free to tell much of your audience essentially “You suck and we don’t care about you” in defending a short-sighted ‘insight’. You guys have done so much in the past to foster good-will in the community. Why turn so negative and poop out bad-will on something so trivial?
It’s so interesting to see people taking this stuff way off topic. DHH’s post had nothing to do with “success going to his head” or telling people “we don’t care about you” or being “short-sighted.”
It was about spending a lot of resources on building web-apps that work offline. DHH doesn’t believe they will be a big deal and he doesn’t think it’s worth the effort.
It’s so funny when using the word “fuck” freaks everyone out! OMG!!! DHH swore!! OMG!!! Success has gone to his head!!! OMG!!!
Lighten up people. It’s for fun. It’s to get a rise out of you. It’s to get a good debate going. And it did just that. Yay!
Craig
on 03 Apr 07Wow. It’s a shame to see your success going to your heads, so that you feel free to tell much of your audience essentially “You suck and we don’t care about you” in defending a short-sighted ‘insight’. You guys have done so much in the past to foster good-will in the community. Why turn so negative and poop out bad-will on something so trivial?
It’s so interesting to see people taking this stuff way off topic. DHH’s post had nothing to do with “success going to his head” or telling people “we don’t care about you” or being “short-sighted.”
It was about spending a lot of resources on building web-apps that work offline. DHH doesn’t believe they will be a big deal and he doesn’t think it’s worth the effort.
It’s so funny when using the word “fuck” freaks everyone out! OMG!!! DHH swore!! OMG!!! Success has gone to his head!!! OMG!!!
Lighten up people. It’s for fun. It’s to get a rise out of you. It’s to get a good debate going. And it did just that. Yay!
BryanJ
on 03 Apr 07If tools like Joyent’s Slingshot can make it easy to put Rails apps offline RIGHT NOW
RIGHT WHEN? Slingshot is vaporware. The whole online/offline web-app craze is vaporware.
Show me 5 excellent examples of web-apps that were built for online access transitioning to an online/offline model successfully.
Until then, chill out people with your idealistic “technology that doesn’t even exist will solve all my problems!”
Craig
on 03 Apr 07Duh. You mean people who have already bought something that requires connectivity don’t require offline access? You don’t say! Surveying people who have already accepted one of your limitations to see how many people accept your limitations is an exercise in ego-inflation, not something to base business decisions on.
Ego-inflation? What!!? Asking their existing customers what they want is ego-inflation? HUH?
Man this has gotten twisted. “Fuck” causes people’s brains to explode.
Narendra
on 03 Apr 07Thank you so much for saying that with emphasis.
Developers out there: plan for the future, not the past, and don’t chase the 1% use cases from the vocal minority.
My favorite calendar “demand” in early 30Boxes development was the absurd fringe globetrotting timezone people who want their calendar to do all sorts of unnatural acts…
Jim
on 03 Apr 07No, that’s the watered-down version. What he actually said was that people with offline requirements were wrong for having them and that they should chill out and do something else instead if their app didn’t work.
If it was a case of “we aren’t targeting that market”, then nobody would be bothered. But he didn’t say that. He said that everybody in that market is wrong. For having a requirement that is usually out of their control! Don’t you think everybody would like a permanent, reliable net connection? Do you think having the ability to use an application offline is something they can just decide not to need?
And quite frankly, referring to locations without the connectivity of typical USA offices as “dark holes” has a hint of racism about it. Probably unintended, but if it was, then it’s a really poor choice of words.
So no, people aren’t getting annoyed about the word “fucking”. They are getting annoyed at everything else.
When you’re only doing it because you’ve already established that they’ll give you the answer you want, yes. Existing customers suffer from selection bias. They don’t need offline access because if they did, they wouldn’t be customers. It’s like a butcher’s shop surveying its customers to find out how many people are vegetarians and then saying “see, I told you nobody’s a vegetarian! We run these surveys all the time and they always say the same thing! We’re in touch!”
JF
on 03 Apr 07When you’re only doing it because you’ve already established that they’ll give you the answer you want, yes.
We haven’t established anything. We ask our customers to tell us anything they want. They are open-ended essay questions without any multiple choice. There are no leading questions, no rules, no requirements. The survey is completely anonymous.
We ask people the following 5 questions:
1. What do you like most about Basecamp
2. What do you like least about Basecamp
3. If you could change one thing about Basecamp, what would it be?
4. What do you feel Basecamp is missing?
5. Anything else you care to share? It can be anything. A rant, a rave, sharp criticism, lavish praise. Please be honest, that’s all we ask. Thanks.
We ask questions to get our customer’s answers, not to get our answers. Phrasing questions like this allows us to learn what’s really on our customer’s mind. Not A B C or D, but what they really want. We give them the freedom to tell us exactly what they want to tell us. And they do.
We receive and thousands of responses. Nearly 10,000 since we started these surveys back in 2004—back when web access was far less pervasive than it is now.
We hear all sorts of things. Almost everything you can imagine. Feature requests that come out of left field, praise for keeping things simple, complaints about lack of features, demands for this that and the other, things that surprise us and things that validate our vision. There are plenty of responses that have nothing to do with our current feature set. People have wild imaginations. Anything and everything you can image is mentioned.
And still, all things considered, barely a blip about offline access. Mobile access comes up pretty often, but offline access almost never. I’m just relaying the results of the customer surveys, not making a judgement.
Drew
on 03 Apr 07People who don’t have consistent enough access for online-only apps will use what works for them. If 37Signals isn’t interested in those customers, I’m sure the feeling is mutual.
None of this software is “necessary”, it’s just convenient.
Larry
on 03 Apr 07I don’t know if you if you intended to come off as offensive, arrogant, elitist, and disparaging of any methodology or tool that doesn’t fit your perception of the ‘best way to do apps’—but you sure did in this post. Until now I’ve had nothing but highest respect for you and Signal vs. Noise, but you’ve definitely lowered yourself several notches with this post.
Craig
on 03 Apr 07I don’t know if you if you intended to come off as offensive, arrogant, elitist, and disparaging of any methodology or tool that doesn’t fit your perception of the ‘best way to do apps’—but you sure did in this post. Until now I’ve had nothing but highest respect for you and Signal vs. Noise, but you’ve definitely lowered yourself several notches with this post.
I know don’t if you intended to come off as full of shit, but you did Larry. I mean, come on, cut it out man. If you had “nothing but the highest respect” for someone, and a single opionated blog post with the word “fuck” in there actually offended you to the point of losing respect for someone, then you never had “nothing but the highest respect” for DHH. When you have “nothing but the highest respect” for someone you grant them some space, not overreact on one point. Well, unless you are lying about your “nothing but the highest respect.”
Larry, I used to have the highest respect for you too. Not anymore after this comment.
So now that your respect for DHH has been “lowered several notches” does it mean you have “something but mostly respect” or “almost nothing but the close to highest respect” or?
@Craig
on 03 Apr 07I’ve lost all respect for you Craig
@@Craig
on 03 Apr 07@Craig I can no longer respect you
DHH
on 03 Apr 07Another point extracted from a reply to http://youknowwhatpart.com/archives/961 (still pending moderation):
Maybe, just maybe, what I write is what I mean. I don’t think offline access is going to be big. I may very well be wrong on that. And if a few years from now offline access turns out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and all our customers are clamoring for it, I’ll be more than happy to publicly reverse my position and bow to the will of the customer.
I wonder how many proponents of “offline access is the next big thing” would be willing to do the same if their predictions turn out to be a fizzle. You know, like push technology or any of the many, many technologies currently resting in peace.
Danno
on 03 Apr 07Push is resting in its grave? It seems like it’s been pretty popular in the cellphone space.
I dunno, maybe you’ve got a kickass mobile data plan, but a lot of people are getting raped in the ear for connectivity to access their email unless they have push.
I’m all for opinionated software, but your opinion’s pretty damn unpopular with a LOT of people, and not just in the Enterprise this time. Heh, if anything, the Enterprise would probably have your back on this one, internet connectivity is mission critical in a lot of Enterprises, they can afford to not give a shit about offline.
Danno
on 03 Apr 07Oh, BTW David, you’re right, I’m not on a fucking plane.
I’m on a fucking train, two hours a day, every workday, back and forth from NYC to my house.
Kyle
on 03 Apr 07What happend to those troll-hat icons? Resurrect them as a background image for this thread?
Francesco
on 03 Apr 07David, you are very right except for one point: offline web app is not a new mania, it’s cold dead since 1999, which is the year when Lotus Domino R5 was launched. It had a cool new feature that even Gartner Group considered as the next big thing that could significate the definitive affirmation of Domino as a web app platform. Its name was DOLS, Domino Off Line Services. Anyone can search the internet about this and come to his own conclusions. The fact is that i do not know of any customer nor any business partner that ever used that feature (btw when tested it worked like a charm), simply becasuse of what you say: nobody needs it, and 8 years of complete silence on a good product is the proof.
brad
on 03 Apr 07The one thing that troubles me about this “future = online apps” has to do with economics. In theory, if all the software we end up using is web-based, we won’t need these fancy laptops anymore and instead will be able to get by with (another formerly dead technology) web appliances. But these will be portable web appliances, probably looking like a laptop or tablet, but without hard drives. Okay, I dig it. But I just totalled up the programs I use on this machine I’m typing on right now and came up with 56. So when I look at “future = online apps” and I figure that most of these online apps will not be given away but rather would be subscription-based, I start to worry. Let’s assume these programs are all available for just $5/month. To run my 56 programs (okay, maybe I don’t need all of them) would cost me $280/month, or 3,360 a year. That’s a LOT more than I spend now on software and computers combined. Typically I buy a computer and keep it for five, six years, and upgrade software only when there’s good reason to, and good reasons often doesn’t come up for four or five years.
To me, that’s the potential Achilles heel of web apps, and it’s something that came up when you released HighRise. As a standalone product, sure, it’s no sweat paying for it. But placed in the context of all the other online products you might be subscribing to, things start getting expensive.
So unless online apps are supported by advertising or someone comes up with a different business model than subscriptions, I’m not sure I like this vision of the future. I’m probably missing something obvious, though.
Paul Wren
on 03 Apr 07Wow. I wish I were you or your friends… I onften fid myself needing to work and there’s no broadband connection to be found.
I consistently use webapps for things I can afford to do without for hours at a time (e.g. Bloglines, GMail), and avoid webapps for things I need to do when not connected (I don’t use Backpack or Google Docs, etc.).
Plenty of tech-savy power users still need to work where there is no internet connection, and that is not going to change for some time. This means offline apps remain essential to some, even if the rest of you can dump your hard drives and live on the web.
backpack
on 03 Apr 07So when can we expect an offline version of backpack? That would be totally rad.
dylan
on 04 Apr 07you really think the only people that travel are “traveling salesmen and techies who go to too many conferences?” and that the only means of travel is planes!??
what about truckers, bands, DJs, families, trains and cars! what are all those intestates for in this country anyways!? why is this country so dependent on oil?
while i agree that people should spend more time engaged in human interaction and they should limit their online time to something prudent and sane (by their owns terms of course!). that still doesn’t make it acceptable from a usability standpoint to provide a service that is supposed to enhance life and solve problems that is inherently crippled by being unable to be used when not connected to the internet! well not until theres ubiquitous wifi in the world!
case in point: google earth!
yeah its great you get all these photos and business info but you leave your connection and you start actually traveling in the world and low and behold the only data you have available is what was saved in the cache!
well i didn’t know the place was going to be closed when i got there and now i want to change my mind but trying to find another place is impossible with this service! i didn’t know i would be staying the night in norman oklahoma when i was driving to austin.
what if im on tour right now and i just got caught in a blizzard in wyoming and if i hadn’t have been saved by a snow plow i would be freezing to death in a 15 passenger van but now that im saved all the hotels are booked because the whole of i-90 has been diverted to fucking buffalo and the sheriff is telling me i have to stay in a shelter they’ve set up in a senior center but theres no blankets and no cots even and google sms only is giving me 3 directory listings of hotels period even though i know theres more places to stay in this god for saken place that is being plagued by 75 mph winds for 2 days non-stop!
what do i do!?
i dont use google earth thats for sure! i dont use mapquest, or priceline or yahoo anything! and even though i have an n73 so i can maybe do something more with my phone… my best bet is still google sms! so i called my travel agent who has a nitch helping people like me. but he doesn’t charge a commission on emergencies, or hotels for that matter, nor can he tell me if theres a place to eat! so im calling him out of necessity because i remembered when he helped me get rooms during the katrina/rita evacuation fiasco in austin during ACL but he has better things todo right and i would rather not be wasting precious survival strategy time maintaining our relationship with the latest gossip from the MIA camp at least not until im warm and can see out of my snow blinded eyes from trying to get help. at least he’s a badass and now im sleeping on the floor of the last room at the motel 6, basking in the monochromatic color temperature of the oh so energy efficient and only interior fluorescent light with not even a bad landscape print to have its photons reflected off of.
whats an online application, that no one 1337, who travels, uses online? ... uh, email!??? no wait im wrong! because its so much easier to use the gmail interface online right, because theres never any lag with the connection and the hotkeys never get confused with your browser and they always work! and besides i have so much time too just sit around before bus call in the lobby on the free wifi replying to the 40 emails i just got this morning… ha! yeah right!
and… yeah dude, aim doesn’t make since for offline use either! unless you’re part of the progressively productive who have found them selves in a hyper connected world/office and have somehow scored an over priced subscription through their mobile service provider and either a dedicated/or horribly clumsy piece of hardware to interface with it.
and who would want to read wikipedia offline while having the page layouts still slightly attractive (with pictures) without having to save each page as a pdf? yeah, sure theres a faq somewhere where you can maybe get the thing to run on your ipod, or even your oh so holy laptop but how many not so “1337” people know how to install even a single piece of open source software that doesn’t come with a cute icon? oh, sure i got ubuntu to run in a game of life using only gosper gliders and subsequently cached all of google earth in it so i can see it in all its 2d pixel glory and then i played a whole campaign of wow in the spare cpu cycles on my overclocked macbook pro that i have to have a messenger bags worth of liquid nitrogen to cool…
but how is that going to get some dumbass dj who doesn’t even know what an rca cable or DI box is laid after a rock show in pittsburgh when every wrong turn he makes puts him over another bridge and thru another tunnel before he can make a u-turn to hopefully and serendipitously intersect with the cross street of his hotel in time to still party.
because in the long run thats is what all this efficiency is all about. because every second i dont have to worry about re-inventing the wheel is another second i can be trying to get my dick wet while the finite window of opportunity is still open and the higher my damn standards the smaller that window is and the more im stuck relying on new improved methods of solving my problems and for lack of a better word i’ll call those solutions to my problems technology and when that technology works it will will breed a life of its own and someday it will worry about solving its problems more efficiently so it can get its little electron infested dick wet too.
dylan
on 04 Apr 07sorry for the rant! what i think is more inline with your feelings toward the solace provided by commercial air travel is mooer’s law.
and yeah, i only know about it because i read ambient findability.
Tim
on 04 Apr 07David, wow you guys are onto that puck faster than Gretzsky!
I’m curious, what brand of thin client workstations does everyone at 37signals use? Man, the savings from losing those local hard disk relics must pay for, like, 15 Starbucks grande lattes a day! Maybe you could wirelessly start a Google spreadsheet next time you’re there and let us know exactly. Those Google guys are just killing Office hey?
In fact, I bet if you pooled all those savings for a year, you might have enough to take a vacation. Nothing too radical mind. You really don’t want to leave the US. It’s hard to relax when you have to spend all your time worrying about where your next bowl of rice is coming from. Only a few niches and pockets to see anyway. And some of those savages don’t even speak English (US)!
Hey have you heard about the next iPod? Less memory than a goldfish. WiMax only. All your music’s in the cloud. Man that guy Jobs is smart. And cause our good buddies at Cingular are looking after the network you just know it’ll never skip.
Dude, your network is the computer. Nobody’s ever done what you guys are doing. You’re so far ahead of that puck the rink hasn’t even frozen yet! You’re standing in a warm pool of water!
Maybe one day I’ll get enough rice to get out of this backwater and be lucky enough to become a 37signals customer. Wish me luck man. Peace out.
Ben
on 04 Apr 07It doesn’t matter whether you’re on a fucking plane either!
Another couple of points:
1. You can use gmail “offline” if you use the POP access to download mail with a standard email client (you can even compose email whilst offline to send later). Google Calendar can be used “offline” with the iCal export, there’s even software available to allow two-way synching (including sending your calendar to you iPod).
2. Web applications such as 37signals provide an API which allows others to build upon and provide features not within the core product. Want an offline client for basecamp but 37signals think it’s a waste of time? If there really are enough customers for the feature, it could be implemented via the API – this is the perfect example of why the API exists.
Michael Bernstein
on 04 Apr 07Jason, it’s not that you’re asking the wrong questions, it’s that you’re asking the wrong people, at least in this area.
Have you thought of trying to run a survey of the people who try your service and then don’t continue using it (even with a free account)? The same questions would do, but you need to think about eliminating the self-selection bias in your sample.
What many folks in this thread are trying to tell you (admittedly based only on anecdotal evidence) is that offline access to data and to features is important to many people who otherwise just can’t switch to web applications, but still want to.
These are the folks who are the thin skin of the ever expanding sphere of web application users (as broadband continues to become more available). Skating to where the puck will be is all very well, but it can also be smart to try and capture early adopters as they start to move into your core market segment.
In other words, this isn’t a tactical feature, it’s a strategic one. Without it, someone else can (potentially, at least) win customers before you can get to them.
After saying all that, it is certainly possible that the value of this feature to 37s is still less than the cost of developing and maintaining it, but saying that is going to be a lot less inflammatory than just dismissing the underlying need.
steph
on 04 Apr 07I can’t possibly read all the comments, but I’d like to add that even in europe it’s not that easy to get connected. Really not that easy. And even at work, I work in an agency with 20 people, the connection goes down for 1 minute like 10 times a day (and seems like the tech guy can’t fix it), which is pretty annoying when you’re adding a note to backpack and the browser just hangs. And no, at that time I don’t feel like taking a break, I just want to save my note.
That’s just an example. But my point is I’m not in a “fucking airplane”, I’m at work, and I may lose data and time because many apps I use are so dependent on a connection. Being hybrid, working on and offline, and not be totally dependent on a connection, makes a lot of “fucking” sense to me.
Random Hinterland Resident
on 04 Apr 07Not everyone lives in a city. Not everyone can afford EVDO. And, at least in the US, those two cover the majority of citizens. Hence, unless you’re at home, your office, or in a WiFi-enabled public place, you’re disconnected except by what you can squeeze through a smartphone…and only a few percent of Americans have those either.
If the world were one big San Francisco, DHH’s point would be spot-on. It’s not.
The problem is that 37Signals, and apparently a goodly number of the “Web 2.0” community, seems to live inside an echo chamber. A big one, but an echo chamber regardless. For example, the statements from JF regarding 37Signals’ surveys are spot-on…for 37Signals. 37Signals’ customer base is not representative of the world at large, or even the US. Most likely, 37Signals isn’t worrying about that, and I don’t blame them. However, it’s one thing to say that offline apps aren’t relevant for 37Signals and for DHH to claim that “we’re already overloaded with connectivity”, which is true at best only in cities, and even then only by members of the echo chamber.
This is not to say that offline apps are necessarily the answer, but it is to say that they are relevant.
Julien Couvreur
on 05 Apr 07DHH said: “What I am saying, though, is that offline access is unlikely to mean much to the majority of customers out there.”
Hard to verify or disprove, but it is often the case that the general public is a number of years behind the geeks and it sounds like a number of your readers think that offline web apps are useful.
From my personal experience on a recent vacation in South Africa, disconnected email is very valuable and Outlook 2007 does a fantastic job. But if I was using Gmail as my primary email client, I would rather have disconnected functionality in Gmail than use a POP desktop client.
From my experience writing the TiwyWiki app (“Take It With You” Wiki, at http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000272.html ) I must say that I don’t see most web applications suddenly supporting disconnected operations, because it’s not worth the trouble. But I do see a number cases where it is. You should check with the Zimbra folks, who obviously put a lot of work in the offline mode, to understand why they did it. I wonder if their customers were asking for “offline”.
Scott Meade
on 05 Apr 07The 37signals’ user mix has less “general public” and more early adopter, high-tech users than most software companies as evidenced by the fact that 9% of highrise customers use openid. I think right now few people outside of tech circles use openid so it definately is an echo chamber environment but I’m not sure that is bad. It’s just how it is. 37signals has tons of satisfied customers and raving fans. They are just a different mix than the general population. I think that needs to be kept in mind when thinking of this from the perspective of 37signals’.
An unrelated point: hopefully everyone realizes you don’t need an excuse to be disconnected. Just don’t logon. Don’t answer the phone. Just say “I’m unavailable”. Hopefully coworkers, friends, and family will understand. There is no need to feel protective of islands of disconnectivity because you can always make your own.
Chris Nystrom
on 05 Apr 07Look. You can not have it both ways. If you want centralized realtime data you are going to have to rely on the network. There is no way around it. Remember: the network is the computer. You can not be connected if you are not connected. If you want centralized non-realtime data then just synchronize like a palm pilot. If you do not need centralized data than use local apps.
Hunter
on 06 Apr 07This is simultaneously hilarious and fucking ridiculous (bombs away).
Wow. People are retarded.
F*momb
on 06 Apr 07@DHH: You’re not a fucking genius, and even if you are, it doesn’t fucking matter.
Kula bácsi
on 06 Apr 07DHH is a dumbass actually.
Brian W
on 08 Apr 07I can definitely see why 37s would choose to make their software only work online. Opinionated software is awesome!
Sure, I’d probably use the apps more if they didn’t need a net connection, but I can understand the ridiculous amount of work it would take to make that work.
The tone of the post – telling people they’re idiots for wanting it to work offline – that was pretty course and unfriendly. I think it would be wiser to treat your customers like they’re smart, not dumbasses.
Guys, I understand your reasons for keeping it online-only, but I think you need to respect your customers more.
Henk Kleynhans
on 08 Apr 07And you’re not in Fucking Africa!
Sorry Jason, but the rest of the world is simply not as online as you are, besides for charging exorbitant rates for broadband access. (Here it’s 3GB capped, shaped ADSL for about $100 US pm, and it’s anything but ‘always on’)
The REAL problem is not a lack of demand for offline web apps, it’s that Web Apps developers THINK there’s no demand because THEY always have connectivity.
Basecamp runs EXCRUCIATINGLY slow from where I am, yet I have to pay the same amount as my much wealthier Western Counterparts. (Just signed up for Highrise, and it’s running smoothly, but that may just be because it’s Easter Sunday).
I would CHERISH being able to use Basecamp and Highrise quickly and easily and simply being able to sync as and when needed.
HG
on 08 Apr 07Why reinvent the wheel? There are already gazillions of applications that work off-line. They’ve been in development since before the first Macintosh. If it’s interconnectivity with web app backends that you want, instead of writing off-line versions of the web app, why not write REST hooks in those client appications instead. They can send the data back to the mother-ship when one is eventually connected. I think this is the direction Apple’s applications are taking, as we’ll see in Leopard.
I think DHH’s comments are true in this time slice, but we’ll see where things go in the next 5-10 years. We all need to stay flexible to whatever happens while we build great software today. If deferring off-line data for later synchronization becomes the mode of the future, I know Rails will be there to accommote the movement.
pjp
on 08 Apr 07Too many people are missing the point the 37s people are trying to make. They’re not interested in making their product the right choice for everyone. If you live in a place where you don’t have broadband, 37s product are not for you. And that is fine by them. They know there are other products out there. They’re not interested in clobbering everyone else and wiping out “the competition.” Just as Apple is completely uninterested in doing whatever it takes to wipe out the competition.
Since I thought this one through a ways back I’ll point this out:
At my local supermarket they’ve recently “upgraded” from proper cash registers to POS systems that run Windows. This is a small chain, but it resulted in several hundred Windows licences. And the POS software has probably resulted in the sales of tens of thousands of Windows licenses.
What would Apple have to do to compete in that market? What qualities and features would Apple have to add to OS X to compete in that market? What would Apple’s attempt to compete in that market do to their product? It would ruin Apple to try to compete that way.
Same thing here. 37 Signals develops products that meets certain people’s needs. By necessity that means they won’t meet others’ needs. That’s okay by them.
“I want a pet I can love, but I don’t want to take care of it.”
This discussion is closed.