So far we’ve received about 80 applications to our call to hire a new web designer at 37signals. Thanks to everyone who’s applied. We’re beginning to get in touch with people we think may be a good fit.
Unfortunately it’s not all coming up roses. It’s surprising how many people don’t proofread, spell check, or otherwise pay attention to the basics when applying for a job. It’s a minority, but it’s big enough that I was compelled to write about it.
We’ve received applications from people spelling 37signals as “37 Signals” and Backpack as “Backback” and Basecamp as “Basscamp” or “Base Camp”. We even got one email from someone calling Highrise “Hi Rise”. One said how much they liked “Packcamp”.
Casual communications are one thing, but when you’re applying for a job you have to pay attention. Know how the company spells its name. Know the names of the products. Read what you wrote so you know what you said.
It’s OK to be funny if you get the basics right. It’s OK to be irreverent if you get the basics right. It’s OK to take some liberties with language if you get the basics right. It’s OK (and encouraged) to have personality and be yourself if you get the basics right.
I don’t want to be grumpy here. I just want to be helpful: Check your spelling, read your email, double-check everything. This is a job application, not an IM with a buddy. We appreciate when you take the time to apply, but it’s a waste of your time if you don’t nail the basics.
That said, there have been a handful of absolutely wonderful applications. Some people clearly took the time to put together a special portfolio page (some wisely even used Backpack). Some were bold and clear in their advice. Some were really beautifully written. These are the people who deserve an employer’s full attention. They’ve got ours.
leethal
on 16 Jun 08Reacting on “37 Signals” is a bit over the top, don’t you think? That’s how it’s pronounced.
mgroves
on 16 Jun 08“37 Signals” with a space doesn’t seem so bad. Even Wikipedia puts an underscore in the URL for it.
JF
on 16 Jun 08Reacting on “37 Signals” is a bit over the top, don’t you think? That’s how it’s pronounced.
I really don’t think so, no.
How do you pronounce Flickr? Flicker, right? Do you think it would be wrong for someone applying for a job at Flickr to spell it Flicker? I do. It would say to me that the person who is applying really doesn’t know who Flickr is. Or if someone applied to Coudal Partners by spelling it “Coodal” or “CoudalPartners” I think that would come off as a negative, but you’ll have to ask Jim Coudal about that. Maybe he’ll chime in.
The point is that it’s not hard to double check and make sure you’ve got it right. You’re writing a few paragraphs to try to get a job. You can double-check a couple hundred words before you send it off. Getting it right is important — it suggests that you pay attention and you care about the details.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08mgroves, if you want to reference Wikipedia, go look at how it’s spelled on Wikipedia. It’s “37signals” not “37 Signals”.
Cameron
on 16 Jun 08I agree reacting over the 37 Signals part was not cool. Your company though!
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08What did you expect after posting a job on your blahg?
When your company standard name goes against a little standard we all share called language and the intuitive rules thereof, it’s an understandable mistake to add a space. Basically, 37signals is a workmark.
How do you pronounce your company name?
GeeIwonder
on 16 Jun 08*wordmark
Ben Atkin
on 16 Jun 08@mgroves No, on Wikipedia 37_signals redirects to 37signals, and it has since April 2006. It does a wiki redirect, not an HTTP redirect, though.
On popular articles, Wikipedia tends to get these kinds of things right.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08About the 5th person to say it, but 37 Signals with a space is a non-issue. Of course, 37signils or something similar would be wrong.
That said, it tells you a bit about the personality of the person, if they add a space and a capital. They’re trying to be formal, perhaps even over-perfectionistic.
Andrew Johnson
on 16 Jun 08I was reading this and I was thinking about the difference between 37signals and 37 Signals. Just because it is said as two words and the grammatically correct way would be 37 Signals as two words and with signals being capitalized I would think this one could be overlooked. Overlooked on an otherwise PERFECT application. The way I look at it if they did this as long as compliment you on “Packcamp” then it would just be “one more thing the applicant did wrong” but if not it is just a small misunderstanding. At least that is how I would approach it; not the straw to break the camel’s, but a straw nonetheless.
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08Also, it’d be ironic if you were unable to find someone to come ‘kick your ass’ and get you out of the bit of a rut you feel you’re in because, basically, of the rut you are in.
Maybe it IS 37 Signals and you’re wrong.
Josh Goebel
on 16 Jun 08Your book is actually copyright “37 Signals, LLC”. Seems a bit harsh to dock people on how to type the name if you guys aren’t 100% consistent with it yourselves.
165,000 google hits for “37 signals” 1.8million google hits for “37signals”
Looks like about 8% of the Internet gets it wrong. Including Kathy Sierra and many in the blogosphere.
People should pay attention to details, but I’d lighten up a bit on the name. Especially if it was the only mistake. I hate to think you’d rule someone out for that detail alone.
Jeff
on 16 Jun 08You’re applying for a job as a freaking designer! So yeah, details are important. If you can’t spell the name of my company, what reason would I have to believe you’d attend to details on the job?
My peeve: many, many applicants provide no work samples, no link to an online portfolio, nothing. Just their word that they’re a good designer. If I want to see work, I’m supposed to schedule an interview. No thanks.
JF
on 16 Jun 08Josh and others… I’m not ruling anyone out. All these things add up. They are all variables in the decision. If everything else on their app is great, then they’re in good shape. But if you are borderline, and you get some little details wrong, it could push you out of contention.
Tom
on 16 Jun 08guys, you’re becoming a bit prima-donnas. picking up on 37signals vs. 37 Signals is a bit … umm … stupid, isn’t it?
johnrhopkins
on 16 Jun 08Well, I can see where both sides of 37signals/37 Signals debate is coming from… but the point is valid. If you are hiring and you have a lot of applicants, you are going to see a wide range of attention to detail. You are also not going to hire someone who you makes these mistakes. If they make simple mistakes like that for an application, how can you expect them to be detail oriented at work?
lethal
on 16 Jun 08@JF: I agree with the Flickr example, but I think the Flickr name it’s a bit different from the 37signals name. Flickr is an oddity that you notice. The R is pink, the other letters are blue, it’s easy to notice that. 37signals, however, is “thirty seven signals”, 37 signals, 37s, etc. Personally, I never really noticed that it’s 37signals, without a space. Not because I disrespect you or anything like that, I just haven’t noticed. Stuff like that happens, I called the Wurlitzer keyboards Wurlitizer for years. Perhaps your new and upcoming designer should do something with the logo, to make it a bit more clear that it’s one word? ; )
Then again, I guess you wouldn’t have rejected a great application which was perfect apart from saying 37 Signals instead of 37signals. <taunt>Or would you?</taunt>
leethal
on 16 Jun 08And seeing how I don’t proof read my comments, I assert that I would never get a job in 37s =P
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08Just a guess, but maybe the folks whining over Jason’s post are the same one’s who spelled 37signals, 37 Signals in their applications…
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08guys, you’re becoming a bit prima-donnas. picking up on 37signals vs. 37 Signals is a bit … umm … stupid, isn’t it?
37s are prima-donnas for suggesting that people spell something correctly on a job application? If that isn’t backwards. It sounds like YOU are the prima-donna for being flippant about spelling the company name wrong. “Eh, who cares.” They do. And you are applying for their job. You better care.
Brad
on 16 Jun 08I completely disagree with these comments about “37 Signals” being acceptable.
Seriously, guys. Do you want a great job with a great company? A company that pays attention to the details? Then show that you’re a detail-oriented person: get everything absolutely right, just like you would if you’re working on one of their products. Everything else just looks unprofessional. “Packcamp” or any of the other examples just make it look like you’re spamming resumes to any job you can find.
JF
on 16 Jun 08Not because I disrespect you or anything like that, I just haven’t noticed. Stuff like that happens, I called the Wurlitzer keyboards Wurlitizer for years.
Oh, I don’t consider it a sign of disrespect or anything that. We don’t take ourselves that seriously.
I just consider it an example of not paying attention to the details. When you spell a company name on a job application you should be thinking to yourself “Let me make sure I’ve got that right… I’ll go to their home page and see how they spell it.” And then you spell it like they spell it. It takes a couple seconds and then you can be certain you’ve got it right. One less thing for someone to call out.
When you are competing, you have to be at your best. Spelling the company name right is maybe the easiest part of the whole application process.
mkb
on 16 Jun 08I’m sure that OpenWave, MacroMates, Cycling ‘74, iZotope, etc. all appreciate proper spelling.
Greg
on 16 Jun 08It isn’t worth arguing about if “37 Signals” is OK or not. As an applicant, you don’t know if it matters or not to the person reading the resume. You cannot risk it. You have to be right in case the person cares if you got it exactly right or not.
In any case, not as bad as the story I heard about where an interviewee was talking about how great they were with “see pound” (eg C#)
mkb
on 16 Jun 08Oh my, it’s “Openwave,” not “OpenWave.” The others hold, though.
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08Ok, the point is great for jobseekers, for sure.
We don’t take ourselves that seriously.
Seriously, that’s not what’s coming across, at least to me. I would probably never apply for a job with you guys (and probably never get one, just to be fair), though I think your company is good in many respects, but if I was someone who was considering it and then saw this or a couple of similar posts, I’d pass. No friggin thanks.
LBDG
on 16 Jun 08Semi on topic: My favorite job application mishap is when I received a resume from a candidate whose email address printed at the top was something to the effect of “[email protected]” (dropping real domain to protect the guilty).
Granted it was the person’s “real” email address, but what it said about the person behind the resume spoke volumes.
Matt Brown
on 16 Jun 08I agree with JF on this. As designers, how often do we have to tweak things based on a matter of pixels? All of the time! You’ve got to have a trained eye to glance at a UI and see where things are off by one or two pixels. That strong attention to detail should naturally be reflected in your writing. If I were hiring for this position and I saw spelling/grammar errors, see ya goodbye. If I saw little spacing issues here and there, I’d be cautious.
Matt Lee
on 16 Jun 08Yeah, anyone applying for jobs with an email address with something other than a variation on their name, especially with the likes of Gmail, etc bothers me.
Another.com was the worst offender for this, allowing users to create dozens of aliases at various ‘humourous’ domains, like antisocial.co.uk, etc.
Josh Goebel
on 16 Jun 08Jason: I agree with “All these things add up”... and I do agree with the gist of the argument… you guys are most definitely a detail oriented company IMHO… so an applicant using “Base Camp”, “hi rise”, “basepack”, etc. is a no brainer… someone who can’t get those details right probably isn’t a good fit to begin with.
I was just pointing out that there seems to be a significant (8%) amount of confusion regarding your company name, so I would be a bit more forgiving on that one item at least. The others are big red flags though.
J Lane
on 16 Jun 08Wow, after reading SvN for several years, I still hadn’t noticed that it’s a lowercase “s” in 37signals.
I have to agree though, sometimes the decision between multiple candidates is really tough. When I used to evaluate cover letters/resumes, spelling mistakes always got negative marks (especially when a spellchecker would have easily picked them up). Company name - that’s a big one. Person’s name - that’s big too. If you know who will be reviewing your application, get the spelling of their name right; if you don’t, it’s the first thing they’ll notice.
J
on 16 Jun 08Do a search on Google for 37 Signals and it will say “Did you mean 37signals?” Nuff said.
Get it right people. It’s your fault, not 37signals’ fault. You are the one applying for the job. The onus is on you.
Jeremiah Staes
on 16 Jun 08As someone who gets these kinds of resumes littered with issues on a regular basis (usually unsolicited), I understand the frustration.
I also understand the 37signals thing. It’s branding – the brand is 37signals. You need to be consistent with your brand, and especially a designer should get the idea that brand consistency is very important, if not crucial, to their job.
As to all the other errors I see on a regular basis, it’s sad what colleges put out as “qualified” or “graduated” people nowadays. I care much more about presentation and portfolio than credentials – most times, I’ve been burned by some guy coming in with an expansive list of credentials which translated into no real world skills and a propensity to do everything by whatever book they studied – and had the most success with the guys/gals who wanted to learn and had a quick mind mixed with a dose of good work ethic.
Patrick Lafleur
on 16 Jun 08Everybody is focusing on the “37signals” versus the “37 Signals” example. What JF’s wanted to put in evidence is the serious lack of attention to details in some applications.
Don’t apply for a company renowned for its attention to detail if you are not meticulous. It’s as simple as that.
coudal
on 16 Jun 08Jason is in the totally right. When applying for a job make sure you have ALL the details absolutely perfect. There is no excuse for any error, no matter how minute. None. If you want to be considered for a job that involves paying attention to details then demonstrate your ability to pay attention to them. It might be a design job but clear, clean writing is the sign of an organized mind. If two people are equally qualified, except that one of them can write I will hire her EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Spell my name wrong in an email looking for employment, it gets immediately marked as spam. Show up late for an interview, you’ll never get one. Send me a beautiful layout that is magnificently creative but has a poorly kerned headline, I’m not interested. And for the love of God please, please don’t call us Coudal & Partners…
JY
on 16 Jun 08It’s “spell-check or spell check,” not “spellcheck.”
Splashman
on 16 Jun 08This is a slam-dunk no-brainer to me. Jason wants to hire a designer, and a designer who doesn’t notice details isn’t worth a second look. Visually, there is a huge difference between “37 Signals” and “37signals.” And anyone who’s done corporate identity should know that company owners tend to notice whether their name/logo are used correctly, as well they should.
Hard to believe anyone could argue this. I think I’m hearing defensiveness from those who are lacking said attention to detail.
Artist Formerly Known as Prince
on 16 Jun 08+1 to Geelwonder.
David
on 16 Jun 08Jason,
My man, did u get my resume? It was a mo fo. I use and love all your aps too including Back Camp, Base Pack and Low Rise.
p.s. and i agree, if people cant even get 73signals right, they don’t deserve a job.
JF
on 16 Jun 08David, I did. You should be receiving your first paycheck next Friday.
David
on 16 Jun 08Quick response Jason. LOL!
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08I think I’m hearing defensiveness from those who are lacking said attention to detail.
Classic.
Josh Goebel
on 16 Jun 08Splashman: I’m inclined to agree with your point (and perspective). However just because 37signals is their logo it doesn’t naturally extend that “37signals” is their typed name… it could still easily still be “37 signals”...
Your point would be more valid if someone sent then a new homepage mockup and include “37 Signals” as a rough logo mark…
Yes any designer should notice the huge visual difference, but e-mail is not a visual medium. :-)
osmif
on 16 Jun 08On a related note, I would point out that this is a two-way street. Companies, or reps thereof, need to act professionally in the hiring process (37signals has done that, to the best of my knowledge).
But I had a jarring experience with someone at a company a friend of mine told me was hiring. not having seen the job posting itself, I wrote an polite email to the HR director (“Dear _, I’m a web developer with experience in x, y, z. I wonder if you’d be so kind as to tell me more about the position, Very best, etc.”), who replied with one phrase: “Resume and code samples.”
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but that’s just rude. Any company that hires that way will be populated by codemonkeys, and people who despise them.
Steven
on 16 Jun 08I like the candidate who after interviewing and having my business card misspelled my name in a follow up email.
WTF?
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08However just because 37signals is their logo it doesn’t naturally extend that “37signals” is their typed name… it could still easily still be “37 signals”…
This is exactly the point JF was making. THEN CHECK. If you care, check. Be right, don’t guess. This is a friggin job application!
Go to 37signals.com and see how they spell it. I see a half dozen mentions on the 37signals.com home page and they are all “37signals”.
Grant
on 16 Jun 08What is this “Packcamp” you speak of? And where can I sign up? ;-)
Splashman
on 16 Jun 08@Josh: That’s a fair point. My former employer’s logo included a symbol (exponent 2) that was spelled out (“squared”) in the legal company name.
When a person is applying for a job, however, it pays to do a little research on the company you’re applying to. The header and footer of this page, for instance, both make it fairly clear how the company chooses to refer to itself.
(Heh—at this very moment, I’ll bet there are a dozen people frantically searching through 37signals’ archives to find an instance in which Jason typed the company name differently, so they can say, “Gotcha!”)
GeeIWonder.
on 16 Jun 08This is exactly the point JF was making. THEN CHECK
Indeed. Let’s check. “37Signals LLC” as a legal entity appears to have been founded in 2000. The now dissolved “37 Signals INC” was founded in 1999. But the date on the front page of the website is 1999—is 37signals the same as “37 Signals”, or is the front page of the website wrong?
Daniel
on 16 Jun 08Hi guys, I finished reading ‘Getting Real’ last night… So, thank you, you are cool people with cool thinking. xD
Ben
on 16 Jun 08Absolutely agree with Jason. Being great is all about details. If you can’t take a second to jump on any 37sig page to see exactly how they do their name, you aren’t a critical graphic designer. It isn’t a small miss. It is being lazy when you should definitely be putting your best foot fowarded and I wouldn’t hire that person either.
I’m actually really surprised that only 80 people have applied. Come on guys, its the greatest small company in the world. DHH works there! Get those apps in stat!
Josh Goebel
on 16 Jun 08@Splashman: Ha, I bet. I just googled for “37 Signals” and found Kathy Sierra’s post on page 2… that was a good enough example for my purposes. Would be funny to find an old 37s post with the old name… but might only prove what GeelWonder is saying…
@GeelWonder: Interesting stuff. Even without any reserach I was almost tempted to say earlier that I though in the past it was “37 Signals” but has transitioned to the cooler “37signals”.
Thomas Ptacek
on 16 Jun 08Count me as another data point for “not cool to ding people for putting a space between 37 and signals”. Flickr? Bad example. To make it fit, spell it L-u-d-i-c-o-r-p.
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08Well, I guess maybe it’s possible someone just made a little mistake on their incorporation papers. Seems like a big thing to get wrong though.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08Josh Goebel, if you are using a third party blogger’s spelling as an official reference when applying for a job you definitely don’t deserve the job.
If you want to know how a company spells their name, go to their home page. Don’t look at a Kathy Sierra post. Kathy wasn’t applying for a job, you are.
Mark
on 16 Jun 08It’s not the applicant’s fault you guys struggle with standard English.
Josh
on 16 Jun 08Jason – I agree that attention to detail is important, and spelling the company name correctly is, in my opinion, the most important part. Not only does an incorrect spelling show a lack of attention to detail, but, in my opinion, it shows that they’re careless. I wouldn’t want a careless person working for me.
Splashman
on 16 Jun 08Oboy.
Here’s a point I would hope we could all agree upon, but based on some of these comments, I fear we cannot: How a company may have referred to themselves in the past is not relevant to how an applicant should refer to that company on a job application in the present. Assuming they’re actually hoping to get the job, I mean.
Arguments?
Ben
on 16 Jun 08The way the SvN blog has been over the last few months, I’d have to say I’d be quite intimidated working at a company such as 37signals. I think I’d be worried that a mistake I made would make it to the blog as moderately passive-aggressive scolding. I 100% agree with call for your “attention to detail” and professional conduct in a job application, but why not just set those apps aside and focus on the positive ones? How about posting an example of a resumé that blew your mind? :)
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08@Splashman
The key point is that the “37 signals” mistake (if you want to call it that) was made by someone else, long ago. A guy called Jason Fried, as he was incorporating his company.
If I was hassling people about spelling my name on their resume, I’d be damn sure I had gotten my name right on my company’s founding documents.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08don’t have time to read the rest of this right now, but this made me laugh heartily
Martin
on 16 Jun 08I have been reading this blog for years and love the company, design work and products. I had honestly no idea that it was 37signals and not 37 Signals though. I have to say though I am pretty paranoid about writing the wrong company name even in regular emails.
Alan Jacobs
on 16 Jun 08Hey, now that’s how you sweat the small stuff: ignore the way employees spell the company’s name on the blog, ignore the way they spell its name on the bottom of every Backpack, Basecamp, Highrise, Campfire, and Ta-da List page, ignore the company’s logo—just check the incorporation papers! In fact, I’m sure that all those people who misspelled the company’s name in their applications did precisely that.
When someone makes an error that elementary, it suggests one of two things: incompetence or indifference. It doesn’t prove either of those things, but it puts doubt in an employer’s mind, as Jason has suggested. Do you really want to do that when you’re applying for a job? Do you really want your first message to a prospective employer to be, “Hey, cut me some slack, dude”?
DanM
on 16 Jun 08When is this new app “Basepack” coming out? Is it true that it merges some of the project management features of Basecamp into Backpack? How much will it cost?
The reviews I read said the Beta was a bit shakey.
JF
on 16 Jun 08Ben, we’re all about making mistakes. We make them all the time. But making a spelling mistake on a job application is the one place you shouldn’t be making a spelling mistake. And I can promise you this opinion isn’t unique to 37signals, we’ve just chosen to talk about it publicly.
We will likely be sharing part of the designer hiring process once we’ve successfully hired someone. It wouldn’t make sense to share a resume with someone we’re considering if we haven’t hired them yet. Someone could lose their current job that way. Or we might be setting unfair expectations for someone.
Scott
on 16 Jun 08One of the main points of Getting Real and this very blog is that details count. Collectively, the small details shape one’s impressions and ultimately one’s thinking and appraisal of the end product, be it a web site or a kitchen tool.
If you’re applying for a job with the 37signals crew and you haven’t internalized this, you’re not the person they’re looking for.
The phrase is “sweat the details” for a reason: it takes work, it takes time, and it takes dedication to getting it right, long after other people have said “good enough” and moved on.
Don Schenck
on 16 Jun 08Me: “I’m going to apply!”
Jason: “Uh, Don … I’d say it’s about one in a million that we’d hire you.”
Me: “So … you’re saying there’s a chance!”
(with apologies and a tip of the hat to Dumb And Dumber)
Daniel
on 16 Jun 08What Ben said.
Short note to self. First thing to check: How is the company name spelled? (As Josh pointed out earlier – it varies.) Second thing to check: Are they nice?
Unsubscribing.
JMatt
on 16 Jun 08This is absolute acceptable. I can’t imagine sending off a resume and cover letter without proofing it a number of times.
I would expect any mistakes, even if they were unintentional like “37 Signals” to be taken into account when looking at resumes. 37Signals should be able to use just about any criteria they want to when hiring.
I always use the copyright information at the bottom of the page to verify company names. This rule works here too: 37signals, LLC.
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08If you’re applying for a job with the 37signals crew and you haven’t internalized this, you’re not the person they’re looking for.
Which means that the Jason Fried of 2008 would probably not hire the Jason Fried of 1999. That may be true I guess. But that means he might not interview the guy who’s about to found the next 37signals.
Steve Erickson
on 16 Jun 08Amen! When I was putting together my first resume in college we got docked an entire letter grade for every single spelling or grammar error in our resume or cover letter. That was a great way to teach us the importance of first impressions when applying for a job.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08@Mark:
BURN!
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08Geel, ever hear of DBA? Doing Business As? A company can DBA “37signals” when their official filing is “37 Signals”.
What it says on their incorporation papers 9 years ago has nothing at all to do with someone misspelling the name that the company uses today on all their official materials.
Quit playing gotchya when you don’t know what you are talking about. You’re just making yourself look bad.
Splashman
on 16 Jun 08@Geelwonder: How is that the key point? Jason posted this comment in the context of a hiring decision. If he had posted in a generic context, something like, “People who get details wrong are stupid,” you might have a point. But it is self-evident that Jason isn’t castigating any and all people for getting a detail wrong at any point in their lives. He’s pointing out that people applying for a job should pay attention to details that their potential employer will be looking for. In this case, 37signals is looking for a designer—a position for which attention to detail is a generally accepted (and expected) qualification. It’s not as if they are demanding expertise in chemical engineering.
If you’re trying to prove that Jason or other folks at 37signals have made mistakes in the past, or changed their company name, then by golly, I’ll concede the point. And quite an astounding revelation that is, too.
Don Schenck
on 16 Jun 08Okay, now this has been bothering me for a while:
Folks, it’s not GeelWonder, it’s GeeIWonder … as in “Gee … I wonder???”.
ARGH!!!
Don Schenck
on 16 Jun 08... and how did I know that? Because I’m inquisitive! And THAT’s the kind of thing Jason is looking for!
I’m not a designer, but if I were you’d all be toast! :)
GeeIWonder
on 16 Jun 08Thanks Don. That’s what I ‘do business as’, so to speak.
You’d think all these keen-eyed designers who pay attention to detail would’ve picked up on it, no?
;)
leethal
on 16 Jun 08Aww I want a royalty tag as well! Do I have to be famous, or write well, or both?
Ben
on 16 Jun 08Totally makes sense. Looking forward to meeting the rockstar who gets the job and her/his contributions to the company.
Fred Simmons
on 16 Jun 08Anyone got a Basscamp invite? fsimmons [at] googlemail.
Michael Campbell
on 16 Jun 08Actually, I think you guys have it backwards. Rename that particular application to “BassCamp” and hire the guy/gal who spelled it so. That has a lot more personality anyway.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08I’ve developed a reputation as a fearsome interviewer, and I’m not quite sure why.
At my prior workplace, we hired a web designer. My favorite interview question during that process was, “Why doesn’t your web site validate?” Not because we necessarily wanted people who were that insistent on valid HTML above all else, but because the answer to that question was very telling. I’d ask that question, and then listen, and make occasional “tell me more” signals. The thing is, there is no right answer to that question that I was hunting for. “We were using a legacy content management system that had hard-coded HTML in parts, and we couldn’t get it to validate.” “Validation is irrelevant, if you test it empirically in the major browsers you’ve chosen to support.” “I have learned as much as I have on the job, and I didn’t know HTML could be validated.” (The last guy, incidentally, got the job—anybody who can be that honest and forthright in an interview where honesty might have cost him the job won’t have trouble with keeping lines of communication open.)
Then I’d ask about the things on the resume that I found interesting—not the things that were relevant to the job, but things that were on the resume and interesting. In a prior life I wrote a great deal of C networking code; when a candidate submitted a resume here where he listed his familiarity with TCP, UDP, and ICMP, I asked a bit about what books he referred to, what he thought of Unix Network Programming, and the like. Blank stares. Turns out he figured that this was a web job in a high-level language, and he’d never need to know that stuff, so why not pad the resumé a bit?
The resume and the interview are the candidate putting his best foot forward. Some things are excusable—most people are nervous when dealing with strangers that they need to make a first impression on. But really, if you can’t get the spelling of someone’s name right (and I have an unusual name, frequently misspelled, so I notice and remember), or you pad the resume in ways that are easily caught, well, so long as there’s at least one candidate who pays attention to detail enough to get it right, you’re in trouble.
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08” Josh and others… I’m not ruling anyone out. All these things add up. They are all variables in the decision. If everything else on their app is great, then they’re in good shape. But if you are borderline, and you get some little details wrong, it could push you out of contention. “
Next time toss a coin rather than pointing to “37 Signals” in the resume.
And Oh I am gonna filter blogs that I wish to spend time on based on pretentiousness.
MattH
on 16 Jun 08I certainly agree with post, though I don’t think “37signals” vs “37 Signals” is a big deal. Why would anyone even think to look up something like that?
Why is it “37signals” anyway? Cute branding? It’s kind of annoying really.
Anyway, in the past my arguments have lost and I’ve been forced to interview people with spelling/grammar errors on their resume. Guess what? None of them were hired.
Steve Pilon
on 16 Jun 08I’ve lived my whole life having to deal with people mispronouncing my name. I even worked for two years for a guy who never managed to say it right a single time. So I understand the sensitivity to getting names right. In this case, I think getting the product names wrong is an automatic disqualifier—clearly the applicant is only talking about how much they like “Packcamp” in order to kiss ass, and nobody needs that. On the company name though, I think that’s a little too picky. Sure, it should probably count as a point against someone, but I think it should be a very small point against. I’ve been reading this blog literally ever since day 1, and quite honestly, I never noticed it was 37signals instead of 37 Signals. So now I’m aware of it, and you bet I’ll remember it. So that’s cool.
But boy am I glad that I didn’t apply for that job!
Anonymous Coward
on 16 Jun 08“It’s OK to be funny if you get the basics right. It’s OK to be irreverent if you get the basics right. It’s OK to take some liberties with language if you get the basics right. It’s OK (and encouraged) to have personality and be yourself if you get the basics right.” Sounds like Dr. Phil.
Long Nguyen
on 16 Jun 08It seems everybody is focused on the spelling of 37signals. I’ll join in :)
If 37signals was mine, I would have stopped reading the application right away. The example of Flickr was mentioned. There are so many ways to write that, it could be Flick R, flicker, fliker, flikker, etc.
I hate it when people write Longzero as Long Zero. Even Macbook as Mac Book. I could open a company called Mahulalolew and just because it doesn’t contain some obvious English words, people will spell it right.
I hate people.
kyro
on 17 Jun 08“Each of the 37 Signals products comes with a free trial and depending on the size of your organization and project needs, some of the solutions are free. You just have to give them a try.”
From the last line of this post: http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/05/4-great-tools-t.html
Michael
on 17 Jun 08I am guilty of spelling ‘37signals’ as ‘37 Signals’ in an email I sent in regards to the position.
It appears I may not get a foot in the door. So if anyone is after an experienced and skilled designer in both print and online media, send me an email.
Thanks ;)
Jake
on 17 Jun 08To add to the cuddle-pile: SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THE WHOLE “SPACE” ISSUE!
See, here’s the deal: they can make the hire/no-hire decision based on whatever criteria they want. Anything. So, because they are a design-focused, detail-oriented company, they choose to have ONE key selection criteria be attention to detail. (Another, more important, might be like whether they are a good designer.)
They are also tight for time. Poorly formatted or misspelled resumes go out the window to make room for someone who cares.
Two things are clear from this post and thread: Jason does not review many resumes nowadays (we deal with this problem all the time), and most people reading this blog have never had to wade through hundreds of resumes.
R.BIRD
on 17 Jun 08Get the details right, please.
Spell my name, my company’s name, your university’s name, software names, your city name or any proper name, incorrectly and IT WILL BE NOTICED.
Good grammar, too, is expected. “I saw you’re listing,” is an automatic strike.
Designers, all of us, are expected to manage details. There are no excuses.
andy
on 17 Jun 08http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/05/4-great-tools-t.html
game over :)
Dylan
on 17 Jun 08Are the guys at 37signals being precious? Absolutely. Should they stop being precious? Absolutely not.
Paying attention to detail matters. Near enough is not good enough. It’s what sets great companies apart from average companies. It’s what makes 37signals special.
If a designer is prepared to overlook the correct spelling of “37signals” than other important details are also likely to be overlooked. Oversights and lack of care = average. 37signals is not average.
Steve Clay
on 17 Jun 08Are you crazy? You don’t want to help these “packcamp” people; you want them to be quickly spotted and sorted into the do-not-hire pile. :)
Derick
on 17 Jun 08My favorite cover letter goof was one I saw working years ago, addressed to
(company name) 2101 Wilson Bull of Art Arlington, VA 22201
John Doe
on 17 Jun 08“Each of the 37 Signals products comes with a free trial and depending on the size of your organization and project needs, some of the solutions are free.”
http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/05/4-great-tools-t.html
Anonymous Coward
on 17 Jun 08Andy and John Doe: Those are quotes from other people, not 37signals.
Anonymous Coward
on 17 Jun 08@AnonymousCoward: I wasn’t saying I have a right to get it wrong because Kathy did. Just saying it’s confusing. Smart people out there get it wrong too. Hope Kathy doesn’t apply for a 37signals job. :-)
@kyro: Good job, was that just a Google search with site: as a parameter or did you waste your whole day? They also have “37signals” on the same page multiple times.
Everyone else: Stop comparing this with a spelling mistake. “37 signals”, “37 Signals”, and “37signals” are ALL spelled properly. The 2nd one may even be more gramatically correct because it capitalizes the second word of a proper noun. And I think we all can agree “37 signals” are in fact two words (rather a word and a number to be more accurate)...
So lets not call this a spelling or grammar mistake. It’s kind of just the way they like to see their name… So it is a mistake, but it’s not a spelling error.
Josh Goebel
on 17 Jun 08Last Anon comment is mine… really wish this block could remember your details for comments with cookies!
stan
on 17 Jun 08If it’s anything like the company I work for, I’m pretty sure this hasn’t been an isolated issue with 37signals.
We have a company name that is spelled and capitalized pretty uniquely. So as employees, it’s tough whenever we see the media or other websites write our brand in their own way by adding an extra space or capitalizing the wrong letters (especially when it’s really good press!).
At this point, it’s either you re-adjust the company name you’ve built over the years or you stand more firm and explain how it is.
p-daddy
on 17 Jun 08C’maaan. Try and nail the basics when you write a blog post.
Don’t you mean that you felt compelled to write about it?
You didn’t really “encourage” yourself to write about this topic, did you?
JF
on 17 Jun 08Yup, p-daddy, you got me. I should have used compelled.
me
on 17 Jun 083 7 s sounds even better than 37signals. Just say it to yourself. You should rename the company.
apmeehan
on 17 Jun 08So you would’ve expected them to append the quote with a “[sic]”, yeah?
Even if it wasn’t a 3rd-party quote, Jason has raised this issue with far more tact and diplomacy than he need to have done, so to try and “get one up on him” by equating a failure to recognise the brand name of a company with whom you hope to seek employment with an apparent typo on said company’s own website seems pretty immature to me.
Jason has made it clear that this is far from being a deal breaker. “If everything else on their app is great, then they’re in good shape.
It may only have had an effect if your application was border-line but, as you say, you are both “experienced and skilled”, so what are you worried about?
CJ Curtis
on 17 Jun 08All this arguing about how 37signals begs the question…
What in the world does that mean in the first place? I’ve always liked the blog name (Signal vs Noise), and they work well together…but what does it mean?
And just my 2 cents…
The “spelling” of 37signals is an oxymoron, don’t you think? A logo is a logo, but the grammatical interpretation of it has shades of gray.
CJ Curtis
on 17 Jun 08woops. forgot to proofread…
...about how 37signals is “spelled”...
Michael
on 17 Jun 08@apmeehan. Yes, good point. For the record, I think Jason’s position on this matter is fair.
Andy Kant
on 17 Jun 08It’s surprising how many people get this wrong (and likewise how many people think that 37signals is overreacting). To those who don’t care: Thanks for making me more likely to get hired.
Marcus
on 17 Jun 08For once I actually agree with one of 37signals’ more catty posts. I see far too many instances of Php, Javascript, JAVAscript, JQuery, JAVA, Asp, MAC, etc. in resumes for my liking—far worse when they vary wildly within the same document. It not only exposes a lack of attention to detail in an important document that the applicant can, and should, review to death but also betrays the depth of understanding of such technologies.
I can excuse the odd typo that one can grow completely blind to, but I can’t excuse randomised tenses, fonts and the peppering of sentence fragments along the lines of “expert-level development experience in development.”
It’s lazy and it’s insulting.
Finally: Ajax is not just JavaScript—that’s why there are more letters in there.
Linda
on 17 Jun 08Jason, I couldn’t agree with you more. In fact, I would go even further – to be honest, I think you are being too restrained.
If you are going to hire someone to row your boat for you, you have a right to call yourself whatever you like, and spell your company name how you want it spelled, and basically, be as fussy and difficult as you want. You are The Man, after all. It’s YOUR goddamn galley they’re rowing. They should show some respect.
Actually, it’s damned cheeky of these buggers if you ask me, turning in shoddy job applications like that. Some of them probably don’t even speak English as a first language. My God, it’s possible that some of them aren’t even Real Americans.
I mean, if you are going to pay them workman’s wages, the least they could do is act workman-like. Do they want you to do ALL of their thinking for them? Seriously, how could they be so inconsiderate! Who do these people think they are? Or better yet, don’t they know who YOU are?
How do they expect you to get rich(er) and enjoy the high life while sleeping with one eye open, wondering if they are secretly putting spaces between words behind your back?
If it’s not one thing, it’s another. Sure, they say, “Yes Massa, no Massa” to your face, but are they really being sincere? Sometimes I think this whole shuffling thing is an act. I suspect they’re really just as smart as we are, but they’re actually pretending to be subservient, waiting for their opportunity to knife us when we aren’t looking.
Oh yes, I totally agree – you can tell a lot about people by the way they react to misspelled words!
Marcus
on 17 Jun 08In keeping with the theme, I just had a gander through the main page of the Job Board here and spotted: Actionscript (three times), C##, MAC, Javascript (six times), aim, PhotoShop, java, SCRUM, Cake PHP, ajax, Macbook Pros, Frontend, Techcrunch, ant (twice), junit, jsp, jboss, apache, hibernate, Jboss, django, Microsoft Vizio and ASP.Net.
Just to punctuate the obvious: plenty of employers are just as sloppy, or clueless, as the applicants that want to fill their vacancies.
Fitzcarraldo
on 17 Jun 08+1 to everything GeeIWonder has said.
This post easily ties a nice little bow on 37signals. No thanks guys.
Brandon
on 17 Jun 08“We don’t take ourselves that seriously.”
People who take themselves too seriously always say that.
Anyone who has a lick of experience in HR understands that this has always been a problem, and is a quick way to weed out resumes and probably always will be. So why is it only important when it happens to 37signals? I love the “how dare they!” tone of the post.
David Andersson
on 17 Jun 08My friend misspelled Microsoft/Accenture IT consultancy firm Avanade as Avande - twice - in his application. Got the job though, with straight A’s from uni and very high programming skills, typos may be disregarded.
Dempsey
on 17 Jun 08Now I understand the blog name: Signal (post by company) vs. Noise (comment section).
The actual disturbing part of the post is this:
(some wisely even used Backpack)
I really hope you guys don’t hire @$$ kissers.
typ-o-maniac
on 17 Jun 08The irony is they probably did spell check – and its the spelling checker that changed Basecamp to “Base Camp” and also added the space in 37signals. But hey, its your firm and if this is how you get your kicks, enjoy …
Rusty
on 17 Jun 08Not even a year ago I was still reading SVN because it was full of interesting wisdom. Now I read it for the same reason I listen to Limbaugh.
Andrew
on 17 Jun 08Oi! Hands off BassCamp—that’s my forthcoming social network for fishermen!
Al
on 17 Jun 08Hilarious.
At least you don’t need to brainstorm for new product names for a while.
Job applicant
on 17 Jun 08Hi dudez whasup!
I herd you gots some jobz up ins that 37 Signols right peeps? Well dawgs you gots to emploi this nigga doods i gots tha skillz makes you tha moolah plenty plenty straight up bitches.
Dawgs this nigga down wit yo shit like Base Camps and Pythons w/ Railz + Myspace. I am luvin this Singles & Noise cshit and i can also uses CSSS & Dream Weaver. I am gonna double your number of singles so fast youl mad props up in that shit.
So nigs what you say, gots tha $100k, ima make yo bitches my bitches check my mysapce for more lulz ok gotz to go cya round peeps gtg
Charlie X
PS i can workx from home right, i herd youi cool wit that shit yeha?
mike walsh
on 17 Jun 08I have seen a lot of good people passed over due to spelling errors. Judge someone by the work they do – the portfolio not what they claim to have done.
The majority of people lie or extend the truth on resumes so who cares about a typo.
37nostrils is a silly name anyway. my company name is 2legit2quit.
Jim
on 17 Jun 08People keep bringing Flickr up. Go to the Flickr website right now. Look at their logo. Notice how it uses a lowercase ‘f’?
When writing that name in normal English prose, everybody automatically changes it to an uppercase ‘F’, because that’s how the English language works. In fact, I’d consider it to be a mistake to do otherwise.
This is what’s happening with everybody writing “37 Signals”. It looks like a designer screwed around with the English language for marketing purposes, and they are auto-correcting it in prose.
It’s not about attention to detail, it’s about transliterating between marketing and normal prose. I could proof-read “37 Signals” a hundred times and not think anything of it. Not because I don’t have an eye for detail (I’m a complete pedant when it comes to things like this), but because I expect this kind of transliteration to be performed and don’t consider it to be a mistake.
MrEfficient
on 17 Jun 08I don’t have time to read this article, could somebody please summarize it for me?
Emanuel
on 17 Jun 08Hey Jason, I totally agree with your point of view. Just wanted to point out that this comments thread is a clear example of don’t tackle your own good news
everyone is fussing about 37 Signals vs. 37signals completely missing the point about the post…
regards, e
Cameron Moll
on 17 Jun 08Looks like some of these applicants could benefit from a degree after all?
(wink)
J
on 17 Jun 08Funny how the people applying for the jobs don’t care but the employers do care. Note to applicants: If they employers care you have to care too. The employers are the ones making the decision.
sil
on 17 Jun 08Bill Walsh, copy editor at the Washington Post, has an interesting take on this at http://www.theslot.com/webnames.html. He sees “37signals” as a “logo”, and he suggests that proper grammar overtakes the need to fit with the company’s ethos (with the note that you wouldn’t write “Today I ate a KRAFT Macaroni and Cheese DINNER”, despite that being what it says on the box). Interestingly, “37signals, LLC” is actually the name of the company, so where does a wordmark blur into proper grammar? You (the 37signals team) now have a clearly stated position on this to which people can refer, at least.
Matt Radel
on 17 Jun 08Mayhaps some folks just get soooo excited they forget? :)
You can’t hope to make a great impression if you misspell product names, or if you don’t write the company’s name correctly. I mean, “37signals” is friggin’ everywhere on the site (browser title, the blurb on the top right of the masthead, the logo and the footer to name a few), and folks that are genuinely interested in the company and their work should know that.
Should they be crucified for not getting the company name quite right? I don’t think so, but if it’s in combination with blown product names, that puppy should go directly to the spam folder. Like JF said, “It adds up”.
clifyt
on 17 Jun 08I almost posted yesterday, but reading though this, I gotta say 37 is waaaaay too full of themselves.
I mean, I read the blog and otherwise, so they are doing something right that keeps me coming back. But it is the attitude thrown at folks around here. The We Are Right And We Want To Tell You How Much Righter Than You Are attitude that really gets to me. Actually, it has helped me improve my relationship with my customers quite a bit…they use to tell me how insulting I could be but I never quite got it.
Anyhoo…as a hiring manager at a major university, I do have to agree that there are things that obviously are deal breakers, but a mistype is not one of them. There is a difference between sending a hiring ad via a professional listserve, or through one of the journals. Through the listserve - I’ve learned people ARE going to be more informal. This includes otherwise brilliant people that are some of the most educated people in the world. It is amazing how bad most of them spell when using email. Using a word processor - physically mailed in resumes—it is a lot more formal.
And the one thing that is common in all of these—my last name is spelled incorrectly a good amount of time. This is more the case in paper than online. The closest thing I can think of is that my name is on the email I send out, but not in the hiring ads placed and they have to call and ask the receptionist (who may or may not look it up). Sometimes because of the position they assume Dr. SoAndSo as opposed to Mr. Some of my colleagues get extremely upset if you do not address them as Doctor…these things are minor.
I personally feel sorry for the person that gets all petty about the fact that their name is spelled incorrectly or uses the wrong title. But the point is, I see these sorts of inconsistencies all the time.
The only things I care about are the ability to do the job, or the desire to learn how to do the job. The best hire I ever had was from someone that knew NOTHING about the area we worked in, made a few major mistakes, but acknowledged in the cover letter the fact that he was over his head but wanting to make a change in his life. I said what-the-fuck and called him in for an interview. He beat out several ‘qualified’ applicants that could do the job but had no desire or excitement and most telling me (as soon as they found out I wasn’t at the same level of education) that they could do the job better than me—one telling me that he’d probably be my boss in less than a year (but not to worry because “he rewards those that helped him out on the way up”). The guy with no qualification learned what he needed and last I heard was doing extremely well for himself (not so sure money-wise, but he was very happy and that is all that matters in this world).
John Sextro
on 17 Jun 08Wow! How very IBM-ish of you. With as non-corporate America as the company has appeared to me overtime I am floored to hear that you are kicking out resumes because of some rather minor spelling mistakes.
JF
on 17 Jun 08The We Are Right And We Want To Tell You How Much Righter Than You Are attitude that really gets to me.
No, we just think it’s appropriate to ask people to spell company and product names correctly in their job application.
How very IBM -ish of you. With as non-corporate America as the company has appeared to me overtime I am floored to hear that you are kicking out resumes because of some rather minor spelling mistakes.
If it’s corporate American to expect job applicants to spell words correctly then I guess we’re corporate American. Employers of all sizes pay attention to mistakes on job applications. They stick out like a sore thumb—especially against those who do take the time to get everything right.
I never said we were disqualifying anyone just for a spelling mistake. It’s one variable in the hiring process. But, yes, if all things are equal between two candidates - and that’s a common occurrence at the end of a long hiring process - we’re going to take the one that made fewer mistakes. So mistakes do matter.
Cameron
on 17 Jun 08“Back Camp, Base Pack and Low Rise.”
That really made me laugh. It was all worth it in the end just for that gem. Thank you 73 Signals
gunther
on 17 Jun 08The proof is in the pudding.
If 37Signals ends up hiring quality applicants who fit in well with their team, then it seems to be a reasonable filtering methodology. If the turnover rate is high or new hires are hit and miss, then perhaps the spelling of 37Signals and Backpack are a poor indicator of employee success.
Terry Sutton
on 17 Jun 08You’re too sensitive. I also think that Basepack is the best thing since sliced bread.
clifyt
on 17 Jun 08“The We Are Right And We Want To Tell You How Much Righter Than You Are attitude that really gets to me.
No, we just think it’s appropriate to ask people to spell company and product names correctly in their job application.”
Jason, you are missing the bigger picture. And several others have pointed this out, but you ignore those posters.
It isn’t that you want people to spell things correctly, it is the ATTITUDE. The whole passive aggressive thing of posting this while still accepting resumes is, well, passive aggressive. It honestly doesn’t need to be said in the way that you did.
Focus on the positives about those that have sent notes in. From there, you can claim that the folks that got a second look took the time to check the proper spelling of company names and products. Again, pretty haughty attitude, and I know I do it myself. Actually, writing this is a reminder that I need to follow my own advice (even posting on someone’s blog as I’m doing now).
BTW—are you ever going to comment on the fact that you specifically use to spell the name differently at least in the legal filings? Honestly, I’ve gotten at least one email from an employee (past employee?) that spelled it with the space. If the company can’t be consistent, how can one expect others to be?
Great products and great advice, I’d just recommend a different attitude because a lot of the great advice is off-putting to a lot of people regardless of the good intentions.
Robin Hood
on 17 Jun 08Do you still accept press that incorrectly spells 37signals?
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/sxsw_lessons_learned_at_37signals.php
Bryan
on 17 Jun 08Can’t pass up the opportunity…What is band camp anyway? :)
jharr
on 17 Jun 08How are people so off the mark? If it’s too difficult to get the product or company name correct my gut tells me you’re not going to fit in with a business that’s 100% set on getting the details perfect. That’s just the way it is.
What kind of systems are in place that designers (either out of school or in the real world) think spelling and basic proofreading are too much of a bother. Sheesh.
Merle
on 17 Jun 08One thing they don’t want to have to do with a new employee is to have to cajole them into doing things the 37signals way. They want someone who is driven to please and to do it the 37signals way. If you want to do it your way, start your own shop.
Keith
on 17 Jun 08I know when I’m using 36 Signals Pack Camper my team is much more productive. Like I always say, “Load it in the camper boys!” It’s a verb around here we use Pack Camper so much. We’re starting to institute that new fangled Hi Rise too. I like High Sea with my lunch so I’m pretty sure Hi-Rise is going to do for our communications what Pack Camper has done for our task management! Thank you 47 Signals!
Anonymous Coward
on 17 Jun 08It does seem a little passive aggressive. I agree with clifyt’s comment that this could have been handled better. I don’t disagree with any of Jason’s points, I just don’t like the way it was done.
That said, how many of us have tried to do something positive for someone and gotten it wrong. I know I have.
I’m one of the 80 applicants and after I frantic search through my email’s sent folder I confirmed that I spelt 37signals as 37signals despite the squiggly red line underneath it. The fact that I got it right several times but that I had to check what I sent made me realize that I didn’t know for sure how to spell 37signals until Jason made it quite clear in this post.
I was very excited at the chance for working with a great company who makes great products but after I read this post (even though I agree with it’s points) I feel that should I not get this gig I will feel a significant amount of relief!
One cool thing about the 37signals brand name (and it’s an admitedly nerdy thing to like) is that the company name is spelled correctly in a URL versus 37 (space) Signals. Now that my friends is what you call attention to detail!
Jarad Johnson
on 17 Jun 08After reading through several comments reassuring my initial reaction that becoming aggravated over 37 Signals is simply silly; your response was very clear and concise, allowing insight into your business as a whole.
It’s not so much a reflection on the person applying as much as the employer. Yes, you could have very easily overlook the error and attribute it to formal communication, but taking offense as if it were a preventable form of ignorance is completely acceptable. Arrogant and undeniably pointless in the search for a great employee, but acceptable none the less.
When I saw the job posting, there was no way in the world I would have applied, as it was clear by your past judgments on this very blog that you were not the type of people I would want to work for. I imagine each and every one of the people who mistakenly insulted your business with an unneeded space would no longer consider the position if offered. That being said, I probably wouldn’t have made the cut anyway.
Point being, you’re right, they should have put 37signals. They should have also known what type of business you run and never typed up the message to begin with.
Jason Gaylor
on 17 Jun 08I’m surprised by the responses to this post. I don’t see both sides as much as I see the need for the applicant to nail the details. Had I been applying and had to type “37signals”, I would have really made sure to get that right. I don’t really feel for anyone that didn’t. If the applicant is unable to see the errors or take time to fix mistakes before they apply, they aren’t right for the job. Furthermore, they could have run it by a few people that would catch those mistakes. Sloppy.
Rich
on 17 Jun 08@Jim: Spot on.
I choose English, not Brandish. 37 Signals is correct, whatever they think.
Jason Gaylor
on 17 Jun 08You could always do a trademark search. Takes about 10 seconds including finding the site. Time well spent.
Devon Young
on 17 Jun 08SOme of you commenters aren’t thinking. If someone’s going to apply at a company, they should at least sound like they are familiar with the companies products enough to spell them the way the company does. You’re not applying for a minimum wage job at McDonalds here. Besides, we’re talking about designers… who pay attention to details… not paying attention to the detail of a companies own name.
Mara Alexander
on 17 Jun 08Beautifully said.
Mike
on 17 Jun 08Beautifully said? Yes, but “McDonalds” is spelled “McDonald’s”...needs the apostrophe! :)
Paul
on 17 Jun 08There’s so many comments on this post that this will probably be overlooked, but my two cents on the whole “37signals” vs “37 Signals” thing is… Intel uses a lower case “i” in its logo (intel), but if you write to them, it’s proper to use “Intel”. This situation seems very similar.
However, the misspelling of the products is totally unforgivable.
CJ Curtis
on 17 Jun 08@ Devon:
SOme… companies (as opposed to company’s)... McDonalds…
If we want to be taken seriously by waying in on this subject, shouldn’t we all be paying attention to details as well?
Especially if you agree with the post?
CJ Curtis
on 17 Jun 08weighing in…
LOL…see, it’s a disease that comes with the internet…get over it, why don’t you.
Words are meant to convey meaning. I agree it’s annoying to see misspellings everywhere, but words do not need to be spelled correctly to correctly convey their meaning.
Reasoning (i.e. knowing that “waying” should really be “weighing”) is a little more indicative of intelligence than misspelling it in the first place.
Paul E. Ester
on 17 Jun 08I never know whether the right word is “pedantic” or “didactic…”
cameron
on 17 Jun 08what if they don’t use the same font or color as the logo? Guns at dawn. woo Why is your company called 37signals anyway? is there a story behind it? I propose you change the company name to one of the follwing: -37Ninjas -37Crazy-mo-fo’s -37Colostomy-bags -MonkeySignals -Not37signals -37giggles -FatCamp
Johnny
on 17 Jun 08The irritating part is not the nitpicking over “37Signals” versus “37 Signals.” The irritating part is the fact that JF thinks that the thousands and thousands of people who read his blog should actually be subjected to that post.
I mean, c’mon man, those are 14 seconds of my life that I’ll never get back. We expect insights, not need spelling lessons.
Perhaps you’re becoming a bit too “transparent.”
Cameron
on 17 Jun 08You say that we shouldn’t be subjected to the post, yet here you are commenting on it. Surely you are contradicting yourself by joining the conversation.
You have to admit that the controversy makes for great reading, and in turn good publicity for 37signals. There is no such thing as bad publicity right?? Another thing is that no who has read this post will ever question the spelling of it again! Pretty Lethal.
Johnny
on 17 Jun 08You say that we shouldn’t be subjected to the post, yet here you are commenting on it. Surely you are contradicting yourself by joining the conversation.
Commenting on a silly post means I am contradicting myself? OK.
Stefan Richter
on 17 Jun 08Got to agree with Johnny here. Most readers of this blog probably know how to apply for a job. If I was a web designer with skills good enough to pass your application process I’d probably set up shop on my own instead…
RJ
on 17 Jun 08I don’t even know what our official spelling is at EffectiveUI. I think it’s EffectiveUI, but our logo has a lowercase ‘e’, and there are many places where it’s published with a space.
If you ever apply for a job with us and spell it wrong, we’ll forgive you. Just don’t spell it “DefectiveUI.”
David Andersen
on 17 Jun 08How many of you complaining about 37signals being too picky have grown a similarly successful company?
Tiffani
on 17 Jun 08lmao @ Packcamp. geez.
Michael Bernstein
on 18 Jun 08ObMovieQuote: “So this one time? At Band Camp?”
Mathew Patterson
on 18 Jun 08@stefan Most readers of this blog probably know how to apply for a job
Presumably most of the people who applied but spelled the company name / product names incorrectly were readers of the blog too.
I still don’t understand how anyone could argue that writing the company name correctly in a job application should not count for something.
I’ve seen people with spelling mistakes in the very first line of their application, and it does put me offside right away.
Justin Metzl
on 18 Jun 08This has been a very interesting read especially the comments on the name. If you have equal candidates and one put it either way I personally wouldn’t see this as good or bad. As someone said the 37signal book has the wrong name and I don’t think the publisher received any BS. I would assume you guys made the same amount of money from your book regardless of the name mistake. You guys had to review the entire thing for edits and sign off for approval but it might have just been overlooked. Who knows.
If you have a few candidates narrowed down just give them a design test regardless if they had a slight issue with a space or capital “S”. Give some guidelines including assets to a typical project and see how they do. Give them about 4 – 5 hours for a 1 page mockup. Example a new homepage design. This will narrow down candidates very easily regardless of portfolio, resume, reference, etc. After they make it past round 1 then it is a phone interview or an in-person interview to gauge personality, etc.
You just know when you have a perfect candidate and a simple mistake of a space or capital “S” shouldn’t get in the way. Talent is talent especially if you can find someone for an in-house position. He isn’t applying for a copywriter position.
dw
on 18 Jun 08You are right about 37signals vs. 37 Signals. I myself only hire people who are manically perfectionist on the details AND fast at it too. If you’re not, anything computer-related is the wrong profession for you.
SM
on 18 Jun 08@JF: I feel for you! We’re a company in India, called Flexidea, and we get applications referring to us as Flexindia. Its an outrage!
Jim
on 18 Jun 08@Mathew Patterson,
It’s not about whether or not writing the company name correctly is important, it’s about whether writing it that way is correct or not, and whether that fact was discoverable.
Until this weblog post, it was entirely reasonable to think that “37 Signals” was just as correct as “37signals”. It was even reasonable to think it was more correct. The company themselves have used “37 Signals” in emails, legal papers and a book. Press about them has used “37 Signals” with nary a complaint.
Penalising somebody for choosing the rules of the English language over the formatting of a logo when writing a cover letter is arguable at best. When you do it without ever once expressing that you prefer the logo-style rendering, it is completely unreasonable.
H&M
on 18 Jun 08Seriously, I think people will have less chance to put 37signals wrong if it was 37-signals. You don’t design for people who has common sense only. You design to communicate better. You can’t blame people who missed it while your original design is a flaw. I totally understand the job screening system you are using, but how can you be so sure the person you just passed on due to your own miss communication will not fit the job? I hate designers don’t put themselves in other people’s shoes.
Eric J. Gruber
on 18 Jun 08I’m totally late to the game on this one, but I have to agree: if you care enough to apply for the job, then you better get it right.
37signals is how it is spelled. Period. If you cared enough to research that (or know because you’re a fan), then I’d reckon you’d likely be a better candidate than someone who didn’t.
steve
on 18 Jun 08Sure, its 37signals, but its kind-of touchy to complain about how someone capitalizes it. This is a categorically different mistake than misspelling a product name.
I have an English writing background, but I don’t understand the emphasis that put on spelling and grammar. There are mistakes in nearly every book published by Oxford. If a candidate makes more that a couple of glaring mistakes, then you can defer some things about there accuracy and follow though. But one or two errors, let alone stylistic or ambiguous ones, really don’t say much about a candidate’s ability to function in a management of development position.
Mike Gowen
on 18 Jun 08My personal opinion is that an application/resume/cover letter should be absolutely flawless. There is no excuse for it not to be.
37signals is responsible for defining the quality metrics for their employees. If you do not meet, or if you disagree with those metrics, you are simply not the person they are looking for. It’s that simple. Think of it as any other job requirement.
B
on 18 Jun 08FWIW, if you applied for a job at Apple saying you really wanted to work on the “Mac Book Air”, or a job at Nike saying you really wanted to design the next “AirJordan” I have a feeling you’d be docked a few points too.
These details matter to an employer because they demonstrate that you pay attention to the things that most people don’t notice. When you pay attention to the little things you have a leg up on the rest of the public who doesn’t. Employees or applicants can call it silly or pedantic or choose to ignore it, but they’re just hurting themselves.
I bet everyone who’s read this post will double check the spelling of the company name next time they apply anywhere. 37signals did you a favor with this post, like it or not.
Dan Ackerson
on 18 Jun 08In the end, it’s all about doing your homework.
If you spent 5 minutes the night before actually looking at the website, you’d probably notice the company’s name by the logo in the upper right : 37signals.
If not, you miss that question on the test the next morning. Does it mean you fail? That usually depends on how many other questions you missed.
Robbie S.
on 18 Jun 08I agree that applications for employment should be flawless, but counting out an otherwise qualified applicant for a space between “37” and “Signals” is too much. Get over yourselves.
Don Schenck
on 18 Jun 08Idon ‘tse e th atspaci ngistha tb i g ofad eal.
Or maybe I do.
MattH
on 18 Jun 08“If you spent 5 minutes the night before actually looking at the website, you’d probably notice the company’s name by the logo in the upper right : 37signals.”
Yes, you would notice that. However, you wouldn’t then assume that the proper name of the company is “37signals”. You would assume that is logo and is part of the branding. The “37signals, LLC.” in the footer gives it away, but everyone ignores footers just like they ignore banner ads.
Riya
on 18 Jun 08Jason, JF and Anonymous Coward please tell me why your book is actually copyright “37 Signals, LLC ”??????????? Is this give some shame on arising this type mistake before?
James
on 18 Jun 08Landing a job like this would require remarkable talent and an ability to make a unique impression while applying. “37signals” is clearly repeated throughout this website.
James D
on 19 Jun 08I’d agree that spelling in general can tell a lot about an applicant. Their attention to detail, homework they’d performed and maybe how educated they are.
Yet if I had applied for this position, I think I’d be a little deterred by how anal it’s decision makers are.
hanny
on 19 Jun 08This has been commented on to death, but I still wanted to point out – if you read any CV preparing advice, it will always recommend that you triple check your spelling, especially of the company name. It’s pretty basic stuff, guys.
John Arthur
on 19 Jun 08Stopped reading about 20 comments in (and skimming at that), but…
The job of the designer probably involves a great deal of respect for branding and details. 37signals is a brand, and a name. It’s clearly marked, and not difficult to find (as I’m typing this comment, I see the copyright below listed it as 37signals).
One book’s (a few books’) reference vs. an entire site does not invalidate this, either.
Furthermore, it’s more than just the company brand. There were a lot of product brand snafus that were mentioned. Ultimately, you want the job, you do the research, and show that you know what to pay attention to. Perhaps an accountant, a surgeon, or any other position who doesn’t work directly or nearly directly with branding could get away with it (though I would argue you should still try to be as accurate as possible), but not this position.
Professionalism should not be a dying art, nor a triviality.
JA
Philip Arthur Moore
on 19 Jun 08It’s pretty hilarious how people are reacting so negatively to this post. Instead of impugning 37signals for the discrepancies in their own marketing materials, readers should glean from this post a little bit of insight into how notable companies of 37signals’ ilk operate.
I get angry when people spell my name with two Ls, don’t write my company name correctly, or do not pay attention to detail. It’s not because I am a prima donna or stuck up. I get annoyed because an inattention to detail speaks volumes about a person’s ability to focus on important tasks, and those are not the types of people who I a) want to work on projects with or b) invest into a partnership with.
That said, cutting out an amazing applicant for a specific task (in this case, design) simply because they make a spelling mistake is nutty. But I don’t think that’s what 37signals is indicating that they have done.
Dave
on 20 Jun 08“If two people are equally qualified, except that one of them can write I will hire her EVERY SINGLE TIME .”
So Jim, you will hire both a writer and a lady at that.
See, I noticed that detail. Am I hired too? Except I’m a man. :)
Nick
on 23 Jun 08”It’s surprising how many people don’t proofread, spell check, or otherwise pay attention to the basics when applying for a job…we’ve received applications from people spelling 37signals as “37 Signals”…
Seriously, get over yourselves fellas and this is post has obviously been written to bait.
This discussion is closed.