There are two common issues people face when trying to get others onboard with using 37signals tools:
1) “The IT department doesn’t like employees doing anything outside of its firewall.”
2) “I love your tools but I can’t get the rest of my team (or my clients) onboard with using them. They keep using email instead because it’s what they already understand.”
We’d love to hear solutions you’ve come up with for these trouble spots.
For #1, have you gotten your IT deparment to green light 37signals apps? How did you do it? Any suggestions for others who face the same battle?
For #2, how do you get busy people/clients to start logging in and using 37signals apps instead of messy email threads, phone calls, or whatever? Any suggestions for others who are in the same position?
Leave a comment here or write us at email[at]37signals[dot]com.
David
on 17 Mar 09We went rogue. We (two of us) just started using Basecamp for a development project and as people joined the project we gave them Basecamp accounts to stay up to date. As people started using it they realized it worked, never really had the chance to say no.
And if in that process we found that Basecamp wouldn’t work, we would have dropped it.
But it does work and it’s here to stay. Well done 37s.
COD
on 17 Mar 09For #2 I think you could make it known that anything in Basecamp gets priority and that you get to the emails and voice mails only when you are all caught up on issues originating in Basecamp. Hopefully they’ll get the message that Basecamp equals a quicker reply – without you having to get all authoritative and demanding people use it, which won’t work anyway.
james
on 17 Mar 09we end up copying/pasting whatever’s in the email into basecamp either as an annotated comment or its own message, so they’ll get 2 emails from basecamp – one saying we posted the exact same message they sent, and our reply. brute force, man.
John B
on 17 Mar 09Posting an Introduction to Basecamp as the first item in each project, channeling all outgoing information through Basecamp, and asking clients to use Basecamp as it helps you get more done all really help with #2.
Ben
on 17 Mar 09My experience was unique, I hope. I introduced Campfire to the CEO. He really liked it and we all started using it. We used it for a few months. Then the CTO decided to write his own imitation of Campfire in a weekend to save a few dollars a month and add an issue-tracking feature to the sidebar. Our Campfire account was canceled and we started using the custom chat program. In addition to the program being buggy and insecure, I can’t use Propane with it.
I think we might have been able to keep Campfire if we had stuck to only one room. Three rooms was too many for a company of about 12 people. Switching between rooms made it less of a joy to use.
thismat
on 17 Mar 09I can’t for the life of me get my freelance client to use Basecamp. She insists on email/IM – even for sending files.
At work, there’s no way they would agree to store any company information outside of the firewall run by a third party…so I’m stuck with backpack, and even I have a little trouble using it for more than just information storage.
Keeping track of an online todo list and then a work todo list, as well as my calendar being on my phone/gcal makes it a little difficult, but I’m keeping my backpack account anyway because I feel it’s a helpful, always available storage of information I will need later on.
Erik Bartz
on 17 Mar 09I was able to get about 30 people in the office using Highrise – pretty easily actually. They were all nervous and apprehensive about it, but after a 30 minute orientation and a push-off to just start using it I quickly gained converts. I showed them the many benefits up front and repeated to them all of their complaints about past tools. I’ve had even the most technophobic people tell me they just love Highrise.
Unfortunately I haven’t had the same success with Campfire – email is still winning the day.
David Minton
on 17 Mar 09I have been trying to figure out how to get clients on board with using tools other than email. While I haven’t gone there yet, I’m considering both the carrot and the stick.
Do entries in online tools get priority, or discounted pricing, or both?
Do requests sent via email get lower priority, or a “Convenience Charge” (it worked for Ticketmaster).
Has anyone tried either of these options yet? Do you favor the carrot, or the stick, or a combination of both?
Mitch Cardwell
on 17 Mar 09Our biggest issue has been convincing our IT people to allow Basecamp onto our production LAN, which is firewalled from the internet for security reasons. We’ve convinced them to allow 37Signal’s IP through, but they refuse to allow Amazon S3 through because it’s a huge range of IP numbers.
All our clients and vendors love it though and have completely embraced it.
Chance Garcia
on 17 Mar 09I started using BaseCamp at my old job and never realized how great it was until I didn’t have it at the new job. So like Ben above, I’ve gone with the rogue approach. Have the project lead on board with the idea and he likes it so far. Just need to get him using it more or I may inadvertently take over the project. Thinking of using a carrot or stick method (until told otherwise by a higher up) to encourage use. The strategy will be to put any issues that are addressed in BaseCamp at a higher priority level. Also, if people continue to try to use email instead, I’ll implement james’ method of giving them twice the email. Right now, we’re on the free version. I’m hoping that once the use takes off, we’ll upgrade to manage more projects.
Thijs van der Vossen
on 17 Mar 09We’ve been using Basecamp since spring 2004. Ironically, it has become harder to convince our clients to move from email to Basecamp since you added the feature that allows users to reply to email notification directly.
Previously, these people had to click the link in the notification email if they wanted to reply. This forced them to start using Basecamp.
BMadigan
on 17 Mar 09The main objection I hear is the fact that the data is stored off-site. I try to tell them that it’s safer that way, especially when using SSL.
I also maintain that you can export your data and save it else where. That usually invites a shrug from the IT / Network guy.
There’s one person who will actually take my messages from Basecamp, and copy/paste them into an email in order to reply to me! I just don’t get it.
sigh but then again, I’m the only one here using a Mac and hear about that every single day.
BMadigan
on 17 Mar 09I sense some videos coming soon ;-)
“Hi I’m a Basecamp … and I’m Outlook. And we both allow communication throughout the lifetime of a project.”
BMadigan
on 17 Mar 09Idea: Create a simple interface on your side of the firewall that will allow posting of messages, etc. to Basecamp. Don’t tell anyone (yet) that’s Basecamp (BC). Splash in some extra functionality that mimics BC and introduce this wild and crazy app to your colleagues. Then when they say, “Hey! Wouldn’t it be great if we could do this or that?” The tell them, yeah it’s called Basecamp and you’ve been using it all a long.
Might or might not work, but I’m just brainstorming out loud.
Andy
on 17 Mar 09I like 37s products and use them both personally and at work – with the company’s blessing. However, I’m also in an IT dept and it concerns me that others are actively advocating breaking company policy (which in some cases is a terminable offense.) Why not work on getting the policy changed rather than ignoring it? It’s not likely someone came up with the policy just for the sake of it (but maybe that’s just how we run our dept.)
Greg Tirico
on 17 Mar 09Regarding #1: Most corporations have a strict policy against storing information outside of the company’s virtual walls. Breaking these policies is almost always considered grounds for immediate termination. Security is always going to be an uphill battle for 37Signals adoption at the enterprise level.
But you are not alone…
Watch the Google Enterprise division for an indication of how the barriers are being broken down. As they convince more corporations to use Google Apps the security argument will fall into obscurity (along with other 20th century modes of thinking).
Jake
on 17 Mar 09The biggest hurdle with convincing clients to use basecamp is the “reply to message” feature. We wish we could turn it off for some projects or clients. This would force them to login to the system and actually reply to messages there. Once they reply to the message from the email, they just stick to email.
Where is if we forced our clients to login to the system and post replies that would allow them to get used ot the system.
This seems to be the only design flaw of the basecamp system. Its a pretty huge one as well.
Paul Erickson
on 17 Mar 09Use it or you’re fired. :)
Randal Burgess
on 17 Mar 09My biggest issue is the lack of a text editor with messaging. It’s hard to set examples apart or blockquotes within messages by users that don’t care to learn the textile system.
Let me know if my experience with Basecamp is easily solvable, because basic Gmail has a better text editor than the Basecamp messaging system.
Carrie Underwood
on 17 Mar 09I came across this website (www.saveaugusto.tk ) this morning and read the sad story of this Brazilian student calling out for help… I know so does a lot of people, but due to to the nature of his problems and courage to put his life on the internet like he did, I decided to help. He was so happy after my donation that he replied right away thanking me, almost made me cry :( It feels good to help others. :)
Ben
on 17 Mar 09You have to force it continually. Not in a jerk way of course, but deliberately pointing every appropriate communication on a project to Basecamp.
It’s not easy to break old habits.
There also needs to be a champion for it, and preferably someone with authority or sway within the company. Otherwise it will end up being a forgotten point brought up in a meeting.
“In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins, not by strength, but with persistence.”
..or something like that.
Ben
on 17 Mar 09We are in the process of finishing a successful switch from emails to basecamp. Old habits are not easily broken. A few things that helped:
1. Having at least two people make the resolution to consistently use it for project communication. It makes others have to use it and once they see the benefits the switch gets embraced more quickly.
2. Demonstrate it in person to new users, especially those that aren’t as tech inclined and are more reluctant to embrace a new method.
3. If info gets lost or miscommunication happens due to mass cc’ing on emails, then use those moments to bring people back to Basecamp’s purpose and value.
Tim
on 17 Mar 09Bit of a left field option for #1…
Why not provide your apps as virtual appliances that companies can run internally? You could configure the virtual appliances in exactly the same way as your production servers and people just run the entire image in VMWare (or an equivalent) as a black box. Every time you push out an update to your servers all the appliances could get it too. Essentially you’d just be distributing your server pool to companies who need internal hosting for security, speed, and integration reasons.
I know you guys are against providing apps that people need to install and configure themselves due to the support issues, but VAs give you a third option between SaaS and self-installation. You could lock the VAs down pretty easily to prevent compulsive tinkerers from breaking the apps. Have a look at what JumpBox are doing – I think it’d be a great fit for 37Signals.
Obviously there are some challenges. What if you don’t want people reading your server-side code? Would you need to change how you charge? On the whole though I’m surprised nobody is doing this yet. Why not let people host their little piece of the cloud?
Tim
on 18 Mar 09Bit of a left field option for #1…
Why not provide your apps as virtual appliances that companies can run internally? You could configure the virtual appliances in exactly the same way as your production servers and people just run the entire image in VMWare (or an equivalent) as a black box. Every time you push out an update to your servers all the appliances could get it too. Essentially you’d just be distributing your server pool to companies who need internal hosting for security, speed, and integration reasons.
I know you guys are against providing apps that people need to install and configure themselves due to the support issues, but VAs give you a third option between SaaS and self-installation. You could lock the VAs down pretty easily to prevent compulsive tinkerers from breaking the apps. Have a look at what JumpBox are doing – I think it’d be a great fit for 37Signals.
Obviously there are some challenges. What if you don’t want people reading your server-side code? Would you need to change how you charge? On the whole though I’m surprised nobody is doing this yet. Why not let people host their little piece of the cloud?
Petros Amiridis
on 18 Mar 09Of course we all know that a policy is a policy and instructs people how to behave inside an organization.
Having said that, sometimes in order to change the organization/policy to become better, one may have to break a rule or two. Especially, if going through the proper channels does not work.
After all, it’s not about the rules but about your people. If you want to have happy people working for you, you should ask everyday if the rules are good.
I would say, first go through the proper channels. If that doesn’t pay off, try to break the rules a bit. If that doesn’t work, find another job.
Chance Garcia
on 18 Mar 09I agree with Petros Amiridis. Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than permission in order to facilitate change.
And in response to Andy, your argument is valid but also assumes that the Company has a written policy against using BaseCamp or similar systems. In my limited experience, the companies I’ve worked under don’t have policies or contracts regarding off-site storage, collaboration and communication other than respect copyrights and licenses. Then again, I haven’t worked in Enterprise level environments that most likely have very comprehensive and detailed polices and contracts.
In the end, it is up to the individual to decide what battles are worth fighting and what stakes are worth risking.
Jordan
on 18 Mar 09I made basecamp mandatory for my team (development) for our own internal logging and for managing just the dev side of projects, and then slowly phased in the project managers: one at a time.
About three project managers in, we hit a tipping point, and within a week, I had the whole company asking me for logins.
carlivar
on 18 Mar 09I am an information security professional. I can’t see how companies permit their corporate data to be stored at a 3rd party. It extends the perimeter of trust to a company you have no control over or visibility into.
This is Information Security 101. I’m glad 37signals is finally addressing this issue with this post, because to me it’s always been the elephant in the room.
I am amazed people are admitting they have “gone rogue”. That shows contempt for company policy that is grounds for termination or even legal action.
I look forward to more responses because in my opinion this is a huge hole in the 37signals business model.
Hendrik-Jan Francke
on 18 Mar 09We are fully committed to client and explain how we use basecamp for project management. I believe that require all approvals be posted in BaseCamp makes them take BaseCamp seriously.
Then we post clients emails for them in Basecamp. Each comment will begin with something like “Posted for Jane, received via email by John” in italics.
We move the comments to the appropriate message threads and slowly clients see what is happening and take care of things themselves. Some are really quick to catch on. Brute force as one person put it.
We too find that some client rely on the email reply to much. I think about half the comments that in the wrong thread are clients just replying to the first email they find. Then also we get their signature line in the comment which adds visual clutter.
matt
on 18 Mar 09@Tim: Once you ship a vm image, you’re now in a different level of support land. How do we change the IP? Can I run this on Xen instead? Can we get a 64 bit version? etc.
@BMadigan: “The main objection I hear is the fact that the data is stored off-site. I try to tell them that it’s safer that way, especially when using SSL .” How so? If the data is stored somewhere else you’re relying on someone else to provide the security for you. What if there’s a SQL injection flaw in RoR / 37S? Can someone then get your company’s data? Things that are sensitive / confidential? What about SOX compliance? etc etc etc
matt
on 18 Mar 09@Bmadigan “The main objection I hear is the fact that the data is stored off-site. I try to tell them that it’s safer that way, especially when using SSL .” Well. The issue with this is that someone else is now in charge of your data security. What if RoR / 37S has a SQL injection bug and people can get to YOUR data? What if you have sensitive information in there? What about SOX compliance?
@Tim: The problem with shipping VMs is very similar to shipping any software. It now becomes a question of full on support: How do I change the IP / networking information? Can I run this on Xen? Can you create a 64 bit version? How do we tune the mysql instance for more connections? etc.
Chris
on 18 Mar 09I find that starting the project area right after project starts and having a quick conference call or walk-thru with the client helps. Most people are afraid of the blankness. As things start getting assigned I go in and add stuff and if they send me things through email I add them in BaseCamp. Eventually they get it.
Nic Eldridge
on 18 Mar 09We follow the principle of, “use it and they will follow”. There have been some stubborn ones, both clients and employees, who refuse to use the systems we have in place, but by and large, the vast majority of people see the benefits once they are introduced to them.
We still have to cut-n-paste emails into BC projects, backdate communications in HR and have dropped using the BP journal altogether but, overall, we get mighty value out of 37signals products. To be frank, I would struggle running my studio without them.
As an aside, I recently had a conversation with someone who refused to login to download the file that they needed for a particular project, insisting, “just email it to me, its easier.” I emailed it to them, shut down and went home for the day. Next morning I arrive to find a “email-failed-file-too-large-inbox-full” type message and a nasty email from aforementioned person saying they had missed their deadline as a result of me not delivering the files as promised.
As you can imagine, the satisfaction of sending through the bounced email, along with a screen shot showing the date and time of upload to BC was very nice indeed.
Email might be “easier” but certainly not as effective.
Mark
on 18 Mar 09Going “rogue” at an enterprise while sounding romantic, can actually be a pretty stupid move. Most major corporations (if not all) have some type of document / record retention policy in place to deal w/ongoing audits, compliance, licensing and possibly criminal investigations. These lawyer driven procedures and definitions as to what exactly makes up an “important document” are set in place to ensure the corporation (division, group or even small team) has a continuing license to operate.
Know the facts before setting off on your campaign to change the geezer way.
Having said that, I think that if you’re in a position to utilize one of the apps, that it boils down to getting the buy-in and active use of the (influencers, sneezers, virus spreaders, tippers, outliers…) of the group—whoever that might be.
I’m sure Seth Godin / Malcom Gladwell has written about that somewhere.
Richard Banfield
on 19 Mar 09We take the “ask forgiveness not permission” strategy with all clients. Over the last 4 or 5 years I think we have only had one client resist the idea of using Basecamp. Once they get their login info and see the UI for the first time it’s really not very hard for them to see the advantages. In tactical terms, and speaking from the point of view of a service provider, if you add the client to BC and send them the welcome message before they have a change to think about it you shouldn’t have any problems.
Struan
on 19 Mar 09@Tim I like that idea and think it would definitely have helped in my case.
I tried to get my old company onto Basecamp and Campfire but they insisted that it wasn’t secure because it was stored elsewhere. I have to say that I agree: my experience is such that I would very, very rarely agree to hosting mission critical data anywhere but on my own server in my own data center.
@37signals Out of interest, has the idea of running some of your apps like WordPress (a .com version that does everything for you and requires little setup and a ”.org” version that competent users can install on their servers and local networks, ever crossed your minds? Why did you reject it? I guess it’s a niche market and not necessarily something you guys need to do, but it would certainly broaden access to your products.
Anonymous Coward
on 20 Mar 09Good ideas. Thanks for this.
Dane
on 20 Mar 09@Struan
It comes down to distributed vs. centralized.
That people pay for the service 37s is in charge of keeping it up to date, improving on the product and fixing any issues that come down the road.
Keeping this in one location allows for every user to get every fix, tweak, change. Going with a distributed system (and paying for it), 37s would be put in the position to either push updates to their users or build an updating component.
With the number of people using their products pushing updates would be horrendous. Building an auto-updating component still leaves the possibility for errors and improper patching.
From personal experience, distributing software is hell. With a centralized service model you do lose the portion of the market where IT wants everything in-house, but you appeal to the IT folks that want one less thing to worry about.
a
on 20 Mar 09good post
Lawrence Krubner
on 21 Mar 09Guilt works best for us:
“Gosh, Lisa, you don’t want to keep this information from your teammates, do you? You should probably post this to a Writeboard.”
So far, the argument against information hoarding has been what has worked to get staff on the client side to start using Basecamp. The only gripe we’ve heard is the leader/manager/owner on the client side isn’t able to establish new accounts in Basecamp. They’d like to be able to determine who of their staff is in our Basecamp project, without having to ask us.
Jeff Koke
on 22 Mar 09We introduce Basecamp in our sales pitch as a value added “project extranet”—most prospects are pretty impressed with the tool. Some ask if it’s third-party software, and we’re honest with them, but most simply assume that we created it ourselves.
If we close the deal, the client is completely comfortable using the software (with a few rare exceptions), and for the most part, they love using it. We also provide a “Welcome Letter” to clients when we set up their first project as an orientation.
Alastair Mucklow
on 23 Mar 09I’ve managed to convert several non-technical clients to the joys of Basecamp just by persistently (but politely) requesting them to post a message to an existing thread. Even the most Luddite have come around surprisingly fast.
This discussion is closed.