This is part of our “Bootstrapped, Profitable, & Proud” series which profiles profitable companies with over $1 million in revenues that never took VC.
“Our outfit Envato was started by myself, my big brother, my wife and my best friend,” says Collis Ta’eed (pictured below on the cover of Nett magazine). “We put in a bit of money we each had and mostly just worked hard.” In this Q&A, Ta’eed answers questions about Envato and its path to success. He will also be answering reader questions today (Oct 7) in the comment thread so feel free to ask a question!
What does your company do?
We do two main things: First we run sites that help people earn an income. These are our biggest sites in revenue and include ThemeForest which is the largest marketplace for buying and selling website templates and WordPress themes. In the early days selling with us would just be a sort of hobby income. Then after a while there were a few people who actually could manage to earn a living. These days there are guys earning, quite literally, tens of thousands of dollars a month. These sites are called the Envato Marketplaces, and there are 7 of them, with an eighth launching three days from the time I am writing this :-)
The second part of what we do is a set of sites to help people learn professional creative skills. These are our biggest sites in traffic and include Psdtuts+ which is the largest Photoshop tutorial site online. We also have tutorials published on a variety of other subjects including audio production, motion graphics, illustration, photography, mobile development and web development. The full network is called Tuts+ and there are nine sites with a tenth launching in a couple of months.
So learning and earning is what we do chiefly.
But we also operate a few other sites and services including Creattica which is one of the biggest design galleries online, FreelanceSwitch which is the biggest and oldest blog dedicated to freelancing, and AppStorm which is a very rapidly growing set of app review blogs that includes Mac.AppStorm, the largest blog dedicated to Mac Apps.
So basically, we do a lot of stuff :-) As you might imagine it’s difficult explaining to someone at a dinner party who casually asks what we do for a living.
How did the business get started?
Back in 2006, our plans were much more modest. We actually just wanted to build a marketplace for buying and selling Adobe Flash. At that time I used to sell my files on iStockPhoto, but as you would assume from the name, they didn’t give a lot of attention to Flash guys.
So we planned out a marketplace called FlashDen, and I put up a job ad for a PHP developer. But instead we got an email from a developer I had briefly known at an old job whose email text was quite literally “Pick me, pick me!” When I called him he told me that PHP was really not what we should use, rather we should build the project in this thing called Ruby on Rails which he’d gotten into. Back in February of 2006, Rails was still pretty new, but I trusted Ryan and we went for it.
Using Ruby was one of the best cultural decisions we made as it brought us to using test driven development, version control, and a lot of agile techniques. These days here in Melbourne, Australia we operate one of the largest, most respected Ruby outfits.
How much cash did you need to get up and running?
So to get started we spent about $40,000 or so, plus a lot of sweat and hard work. The money came from the cofounders’ savings and was pretty much the sum total of those savings!
Early on the project didn’t go as we’d hoped. By July we’d burned through all the money, exhausted our credit cards, and were busy working our freelance design jobs as well as trying to build and work on FlashDen at night time. For a little while there I recall wondering if the whole thing was going to flop.
But happily by August we chopped out a lot of the ‘nice to have’ features, cleaned it all up a bit and managed to launch.
Ta’eed: “Back in late 2009 after we’d moved to the new office in Melbourne.” Back row, L to R: James, Naysan, Oz, Justine, Lucas, Stu, Rod, John, Skellie, Erin, Jordan. Front row seated, L to R: Collis, Fred, Cyan, Vahid, Ryan.”
How successful is the business?
The best testament to our success isn’t really in numbers, but in people. On our marketplaces we have forums where on occasion users spontaneously start threads about their experiences with us. You can read the biggest thread here.
Still I understand why you’d want numbers! I generally prefer not to share outright revenue, but I can tell you the following things:
- Our total network traffic each month is north of 50,000,000 pageviews.
- Our top seller on the marketplaces has sold $500,000 in gross sales in under two years – that’s just ONE guy!
- The top sellers on every one of our marketplaces earns four figures a month, and on the larger marketplaces there are quite a few in the five figures.
- Our educational blogs, which aren’t really built for outright profit, are self sustaining and have seven figure revenues themselves.
So things are going well! Well enough that this week we were able to announce a dramatic improvement to our author rates to ensure they get the best possible earnings we can offer.
What is your work environment like?
We have a very flexible work culture that is focused on putting good, smart people in positions where they have responsibility and trusting them to do a great job. What the ‘work’ actually looks like is much less important to us.
This attitude is in no small part derived from the fact that over half our staff are remote, so frankly who knows how and when they work. What is important then is that they do a stellar job. If that’s accomplished in an hour a day while wearing their underwear on their head, well who am I to say that’s not an awesome way to work?
Over half our staff are remote, so frankly who knows how and when they work. What is important then is that they do a stellar job.
I also think we have a very happy team, who are very capable and talented. Frankly I’m quite amazed we managed to get so many great people. Luckily I think good people build good culture which brings more good people. It’s one of those virtuous cycles.
Ta’eed: “Chicago September 2010, most of our remote team with a few Australian’s thrown in the mix, at Chicago’s awesome Catalyst Ranch on day one of the first ever team meetup.”
What’s your goal with the company?
My personal goal? To build products and sites that are genuinely useful for people. So with our marketplaces I hope that we can build the best marketplaces for our authors to sell on. They won’t ever be the only marketplaces, but I want them to be the best for authors, so that means good rates, lots of community to be a part of, a friendly team to interact with and who listen to the community, features that help authors, and just generally a place you’d be proud to sell through.
For our educational sites, I want us to build a platform that offers professional grade skills in an environment where it costs very little, or better yet, nothing to learn them. I’d like to see us expand the variety of things we teach continuously further and further, to broaden our reach, and to get more involvement from our community in helping educate each other.
Any examples of a time you ignored the advice of others and went your own way?
I suppose you might say that most people would tell you not to start so many different sites. Generally speaking lack of focus is meant to be the kiss of death for entrepreneurs. Certainly at times I have been told, rightly or wrongly, that we need to focus on what we have, not build new sites. To be honest I love creating new things enough that I’m not sure I had much of a choice in the matter :-)
What’s been the biggest challenge you’ve had to overcome as a company?
For us I think the biggest challenge has been levelling up into a company. Early on we were a bit of a tin-pot organization and that worked because we were small and we could play things somewhat fast and loose. But in the last couple of years we’ve had to come a very long way in things like how rigourous our accounting practices are, how secure and sustainable our infrastructure is, how our staff structure works, and how much risk we can take or expose the business to.
I think with growth has come a lot of responsibility on the company. When there are thousands of people who earn an income, and potentially their entire living, through your websites, it’s very important to take that responsibility seriously.
There’s also only so far unstructured group dynamics can take you. As you get larger you have a continual battle between adding more structure and process, and keeping things as organic, dynamic and fluid as they were early on. You need the strucure and the process to scale, but you need the fluidity because that’s what makes you successful and exciting. So if the army is on one end of the spectrum as the ultimate rigid, structured and sprawling monster of an organization, and early stage startups are on the other end as the quintessential anything goes environment that are suited to small groups of people – well you have to figure out where your organization is going to sit, and then get it there. This is a continual challenge that I think every growing organization faces.
As you get larger you have a continual battle between adding more structure and process, and keeping things as organic, dynamic and fluid as they were early on.
What else is interesting about your story?
I think it’s interesting that we started with absolutely zero business experience. Three of us were designers, and my big brother was a physicist. This was good because we weren’t risk-averse, we didn’t really know just how much work we were in for, and sometimes we did things that someone with more experience simply might not have thought of doing. On the other hand it wasn’t so good when it came to building strong foundations for the company. Consequently over the course of Envato’s life, we’ve spent a considerable amount of time going back and laying better foundations for things which we simply didn’t know about. If we ever start another company in the future, we’ll know all about how to set it up right to begin with, but on the other hand I’m sure we’ll be a lot more wary of risk.
What advice do you have for someone considering starting a business?
I think if you love what you do, and are willing to work hard, then it’s a really fantastic thing to do. It can be a bit all consuming, but it can also be incredibly rewarding. For me, certainly it’s the best decision I ever made.
Visit Envato
More “Bootstrapped, Profitable, & Proud” posts [Signal vs. Noise]
A few of the Envato Marketplaces:
videohive.net
graphicriver.net
A few of the Tuts blogs:
Nettuts+ (aimed at web developers and designers)
Audiotuts+ (for musicians, producers and audio junkies)
Nathan
on 07 Oct 10Great read, these are always inspiring to me. Love the Tuts+ sites. What type tools or tactics did you use to get the word out about yourself?
Nathan
on 07 Oct 10*when you were first starting out is mainly what I’m asking about.
Tim Benjamin
on 07 Oct 10Great story. How did you initially drive sales?
Daniel
on 07 Oct 10Collis,
Thanks for you company. As a programmer, I remember how excited I was to find quality designs at great prices. Also, I love all the education on the Tuts+ sites. I have often wondered if ya’ll were profitable, glad to hear ya’ll are because of the great service ya’ll provide.
Spicer Matthews
on 07 Oct 10All the Envato properties are really great. I am a big fan. Even more impressed know that I know they are bootstrapped and profitable.
Great work!!!
Tanner
on 07 Oct 10These stories are all very inspiring. Keep the interviews coming!
Scott
on 07 Oct 10This interview literally goes from “launch” to “success”. I’d love to hear something about what happened in between. Did you launch with success on day one? Did you grow slowly over time? How did you grow? To what do you attribute your large audience? How did people find you?
Congrats on the success and thank you for sharing your insight!
Adam Codega
on 07 Oct 10I liked to hear your story since I’m a member of Envato myself. I really admire how much you care about the creators who sell through your site. So often that’s not the case with a marketplace or stock site.
Your business was founded with a partnership of friends and family, often times this idea is brought up in business blogs and articles and everyone says to be very cautious about it because you risk losing the relationship itself. What advice would you give to others thinking about a partnership or offering family and friends an investment in their business?
Brian
on 07 Oct 10Question for Collis-
How do hire staff, particularly in the beginning as a bootstrapped company? Do you offer full-time salaries/benefits and if so, when in your history were you able to sustain that?
By the way, loved your last book about your blogging business! Highly recommend it!
Mark Copeman
on 07 Oct 10Love this series of articles – so relevant to me at the moment. Inspiring and also helps you to believe in what you are doing to, because others have gone through the same pain before you. For what it’s worth, I’ve just written a book containing my “63 lessons from my first 2 years online” which you can download from the link on my name.
Keep ‘em coming guys. Mark
Ben Ackles
on 07 Oct 10What do you think the tipping point was for Envato? What are your big goals for the company?
You’re blog The Net Setter is probably one of my favorite entrepreneur blogs. The Net Setter’s definitely on par with some of SVN’s entrepreneur-based posts.
A few weeks ago I suggested Envato for this segment. I doubt it was based on this suggestion, but I’m glad they ended up getting in touch with you guys. The Envato crew’s doing a fantastic job.
Chris Whamond
on 07 Oct 10Big fan of your sites. What marketing advice can you pass along? Are there some specific marketing techniques you used in the early days to gain traction? Also – I’ve always been curious how you came up with your name, Envato. Thanks and keep up the good work!
Misel D.
on 07 Oct 10Great article, great peoples and community! Envato is just amazing it change my life!
Christian
on 07 Oct 10What authors have influenced the most the way your marketplaces evolved an why, and how do you plan to react to the new technologies emerging, such as HTML5 and mobile?
Andrey
on 07 Oct 10Great article on people, who earn money on selling manuals and templates. Genius people.
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Nathan: “What type tools or tactics did you use to get the word out about yourself?”
Tim Benjamin: “How did you initially drive sales?”
Great questions! When we first started it was with the marketplace FlashDen and at that time we had no web presence to draw on, so it was really grass-roots marketing. With the initial launch I submitted the site to a lot of CSS galleries and we got some early traffic there. Then we (the team at the time) went on to Flash forums and interacted with users there. We bought a couple of adverts here and there – though we could hardly afford much back then. I also remember writing to Flash blogs to ask for coverage though we didn’t actually get any. I tried sending out a Press Release to newspapers in Australia but that didn’t work either.
At the time we counted each and every new person has a big victory, especially if anyone made it to the forums to chat – the whole team would go and chat with them! I even had a second and third alias that I sometimes used to make our sites feel more active – how embarrassing now to think!
Eventually by December we launched our first real marketing campaign where we gave out $10,000 of site credits for free in $10 lots for people to try out the site. We pushed it by making a mini-site in Flash (which took me a couple of weeks!!) which was a showcase made using items from our site. And we submitted that showcase mini-site to as many design sites as we could with the promo splash page talking about the $10k giveaway.
Actually we didn’t even manage to give away all the money because we didn’t have much reach back then. But it did bring a lot of new people to the site and then they spent money which encouraged authors who made more stuff which brought more people … and so we had some momentum. ‘
By the end of the push we had gone from $200 a week in revenue to $1000 a week, and we were over the moon :-)
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Scott: I’d love to hear something about what happened in between. Did you launch with success on day one? Did you grow slowly over time? How did you grow? To what do you attribute your large audience? How did people find you?
Hey Scott, good point! As I mentioned in my comment above we certainly didn’t launch with success on day one. Day one saw all of $10 in sales, and if I recall correctly day two didn’t see any!
So I would certainly say that we have grown over time. And I believe we’ve built the audience through focusing on making useful sites, trying our best to encourage communities to form around them, and always, always pushing things along.
I think the whole company from top to bottom has a strong focus on improvement and not resting on our success to date. My dad has a saying that if you stand still in business, particularly online business, you are really going backwards. So it’s important to always be pushing forward, trying new things, improving the service, trying to market it, adopting new techniques and so on.
As to the last part, about how people found us: earlier I mentioned some of the techniques that brought us early visitors. One particular technique I would highlight is giving away free stuff.
I think free stuff is a wonderful marketing technique that anyone can use well. People love free stuff and they will happily tell their friends about something that is genuinely useful and free. So if you are trying to attract users and traffic, find something to give them that they would truly want – even if it means investing some time and money into it.
Once you have something free to giveaway then you focus on marketing that, and usually that’s a lot easier to do than to market your paid for product. And then from there you make sure there is a funnel into using your main product.
So in our case it was free credits, but you could argue that in some ways Tuts+ itself is all about giving free stuff, and many of our promotions for the marketplaces have included freebies.
It really is my favourite guerilla marketing tactic and I think it’s one that is perfect for use on the web.
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Adam: “Your business was founded with a partnership of friends and family, often times this idea is brought up in business blogs and articles and everyone says to be very cautious about it because you risk losing the relationship itself. What advice would you give to others thinking about a partnership or offering family and friends an investment in their business?”
Excellent point Adam. I was given a lot of caution about working with all family and friends, and to be honest I didn’t pay it a lot of heed because I felt like we had a very secure relationship in all cases, and that the four of us had the same goals and philosophies in life.
I think going into business together is a little bit like getting married. It’s a very long term commitment where you will be sharing a lot of stuff and you’ll be stuck together seeing each other all the time.
So the first rule is don’t marry someone you don’t like right? Well it’s the same for co-founders. Don’t start a business with someone you don’t actually like that much! That would be crazy :-)
Another important rule when getting married is to find someone who has similar goals and aspirations. So if they want twenty kids and to trek the himalayas with them, and you want no kids and to watch tv all day – obviously getting married isn’t a good idea.
It’s the same in business, if your cofounders want to make a lot of money in a big exit, and you want to make a business that lasts for the rest of your life, then you are going to have problems.
So I guess in terms of advice, I would say choose wisely. Just because someone is a friend or family doesn’t mean they will be a good business partner. Just as you would choose wisely when looking for someone to spend your life with and raise children with, you should also think carefully about who you want to work with and raise a business with!
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Brian: “How do hire staff, particularly in the beginning as a bootstrapped company? Do you offer full-time salaries/benefits and if so, when in your history were you able to sustain that?”
Interesting question. Early on we only had one staff’er and that was Ryan our developer, he came on from day one but as a contractor. The rest of us were (unpaid) founders. It was one of the benefits of having a few founders was that we had a lot of manpower even though we had not much in the bank.
It was a bit over a year in before we spoke with Ryan about coming on as an employee, and then some months more before we brought on more staff. In the meantime with our one contractor and lots of founder-sweat we had managed to grow some revenue, so by the time it all happened it was sustainable thankfully.
Because none of us had business experience, a large part of it was not even knowing how to employ someone. Like so many things that has been something we’ve had to learn along the way.
(thanks for the kind words about the book!)
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Ben:“What do you think the tipping point was for Envato? What are your big goals for the company?”
I think our tipping point came when our first marketplace got its first killer product – XML driven Flash websites.
Every platform needs a killer app to drive its sales. And ours was no different. It was only when our authors started making these amazing XML driven sites that sold like hotcakes that the entire Envato economy suddenly really came alive.
Example XML ActiveDen Item
Once we had stuff that really sold, other authors could see the potential and made more great stuff for buyers, who then came back more and more to buy, thus encouraging more authors.
As ActiveDen started to surge forward we finally had enough cash in the company to start driving things forward properly, to start building the marketplace platform out so that later we could create sister marketplaces, to pay for more marketing and so on.
So I trace it all back to that point, and am eternally indebted to those amazing authors like Triworks and DigitalScience who made it all happen.
(Btw Thanks for suggesting us Ben!! I really appreciate it!)
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Chris Whamond: “What marketing advice can you pass along? Are there some specific marketing techniques you used in the early days to gain traction? Also – I’ve always been curious how you came up with your name, Envato.”
I’ve waffled on about marketing advice in some of the answers above, so I’ll just stick to the last part of this question. The name Envato came up because we had been busy trying to trademark our original name “Eden” and had discovered that it was really hard to do! In fact in Australia alone we had about a dozen companies try to block the trademark application.
So we decided we should go with a made up word. To find one we actually used a really handy service called Brand Bucket who list all sorts of made up word domains. It was a bit expensive, but it was also completely clean in trademarks and usage. And it sounds cool and has absolutely no meaning except what we give it :-)
Collis
on 07 Oct 10Christian: “What authors have influenced the most the way your marketplaces evolved an why, and how do you plan to react to the new technologies emerging, such as HTML5 and mobile?”
Great question Christian. In the early days I think the initial wave of ActiveDen authors who created those XML driven templates that I mentioned in the comments above, people like DigitalScience and Triworks, really helped push the marketplaces along. They tended to be people who combined design and development talents and could create amazing products that brought both sides of the coin together. They influenced the marketplaces in that they were leaders in terms of what types of files would sell and work on our sites, but also because they grew our market and gave us the resources to improve the platform.
More recently ThemeForest has been the key driving marketplace, and here it’s been two authors in particular Kriesi and Epicera who I see as major influencers as they have introduced a whole plethora of WordPress theme trends on to our marketplaces.
Of course there are many more authors who sell a little less but who are also key influencers, I have a tendency to focus on the top sellers because they leap out of the accounting records I look at :-)
I think as new technologies emerge, the key for us at Envato is to make sure that we provide our authors the tools and platform to sell them.
Ultimately our goal is to empower authors, so for example CodeCanyon now has a HTML5 category, and we’re looking at creating a mobile one too in the near future.
In that sense I’m actually excited to see new technologies because I view them as new opportunities for us to build marketplaces! :-)
Adrian Cb
on 08 Oct 10Great stuff, like usual, Collis. Envato is an inspiration to us all.
How did you get to a point of having enough assets to cater for buyers and enough buyers to cater for sellers?
Michishige Kaito
on 08 Oct 10Amazing write up. This is one of those companies for which most of us can only dream of working.
EricTimmer
on 08 Oct 10Awesome read! I love these BPP articles. I tell you if you can’t run your own business this is the type of company you want to work for!
Nathan
on 08 Oct 10thanks collis for taking the time answer my question (& others) really interesting stuff
cooljaz124
on 08 Oct 10Inspirational, bloody inspirational. Ruby on Rails is everywhere. And why the hell I’m more in love with 37Signal guys even after I know, I read about Envato :) Good luck all.
Lets keep the dream alive.
TechSlam
on 08 Oct 10@collis
I dream a dream, to be dhh of 37Signals, to be collis of envato :)
Chris
on 08 Oct 10Inspiration to keep going and dont give up when the going gets tough or the money gets tight. The time when most people give up is when some of the best work is done and things start to happen.
Kevin Bombino
on 09 Oct 10Love ThemeForest. One suggestion, though, for ThemeForest: show a full screenshot of the theme in the search results page. It is sometimes completely impossible to see what a theme even looks like without clicking into the full preview. Because of this, I usually start my searches at WooThemes and then move to ThemeForst as a last resort—which is a shame, because you often have better themes.
Secondly Collis, I’d love to speak with you off-board about a possible partnership—we’ve built a hosted CMS that really shines at being a CMS backend for XML-driven flash sites. If you see this, shoot me a quick email at kevin at actionverb dot com and I’ll write you. Otherwise, I’ll try to go send you something through your site.
ActiveToFocus
on 11 Oct 10wow! really great!
ActiveToFocus
on 11 Oct 10@collis You are great man!
LGLab
on 12 Oct 10Very nice article. The link to Flashden in the article is wrong though, it should be flashden.net, not .com which is not owned by Envato, or even better activeden.net which is the new domain.
This discussion is closed.