Don Norman, an author, professor, and partner at the Nielsen Norman Group, read the Wired article about us and wrote a piece asking, “Why is 37signals so arrogant?”
Hansson said: “I’m not designing… for other people.” I think that simple phrase speaks volumes. Thank goodness most companies recognize that this attitude is deadly.
If 37signals wants to follow this attitude, I think that is fine. I’m pleased that they are enjoying themselves and that their simple applications do indeed meet many people’s simple needs. But I would prefer someone who designed software for other people. If you want a hobby, fine, indulge yourself.
First off, let me say I respect Norman. His book The Design of Everyday Things is a classic. I’ve always admired him and think he’s spot on most of the time.
That said, I think he’s looking at this the wrong way. In fact, most of what he says about us in his piece misses the point.
Why we design for ourselves first
He argues that because we design for ourselves first, we’re selfish, arrogant, and have a disdain for customers.
That’s not true. Designing for ourselves first yields better initial results because it lets us design what we know. It lets us assess quality quickly and directly, instead of by proxy. And it lets us fall in love with our products and feel passionate about what we make. There’s simply no substitute for that.
We’re like chefs. We make food that we think tastes good and that we believe in. We make it for customers who have the same sensibilities that we do. It might not be for everyone. That’s ok. But for people who think the way we do, and appreciate the things we appreciate, it’s perfect.
And if enough customers tell us our food is too salty or too hot, we may adjust the salt and the heat. But if some customers tell us to add bananas to our lasagna, we’re not going to make them happy at the expense of ruining the dish for everyone else. That doesn’t make us selfish. We’re just looking out for the greater good.
We’re not the only ones
Apple agrees with this philosphy too. Here’s Steve Jobs’ perspective on “designing for you” :
We figure out what we want. And I think we’re pretty good at having the right discipline to think through whether a lot of other people are going to want it, too. That’s what we get paid to do. (complete interview)
We do exactly what Apple does. We figure out what we want and whether other people will want it too.
This method works because our problems are common problems. Solutions to our own problems are solutions to other people’s problems too. By building products we want to use, we’re also building products that millions of other small businesses want to use. Not all businesses, not all customers, not everyone, but a healthy, sustainable, growing, and profitable segment of the market.
Simple doesn’t mean less important
Norman also says, “[37signals’] simple applications do indeed meet many people’s simple needs.” But he blows right past that idea as if solving simple needs is only worthy of hobby.
We’re proud that we build simple software that solves people’s simple problems. We say this right at the top of our home page: “Over 1 million people use our web-based applications to get things done the simple way.” This is exactly what our customers love about our products. Read through these answers to the “What do you like most about Basecamp?” question. You’ll spot the words simple, easy, and intuitive about a bazillion times.
Just because people’s problems are simple doesn’t make them any less important. In fact, simple problems are a lot more common than bigger, more complex ones. Their recurrence is often what makes them so frustrating and why people desire an easy, hassle-free solution.
A sound strategy for targeting nonconsumption
Plus, we’re mainly targeting people who have never used products like ours before. These people especially crave simple solutions. They were nonconsumers before because the alternatives had too many features, were too confusing, and were too expensive. We’re addressing a hungry market that’s been ignored for way too long.
For more insight into competing against nonconsumption, check out Competing Against Non-Consumption: A Conversation with Clay Christensen or chapter two of The Innovator’s Solution.
No one represents everyone
Norman may not be one of our customers because our products don’t solve his problems. (We’re not sure since he’s never sent us a feature request or suggestion.) That’s fine—we’re not here to solve everyone’s problems any more than Norman is here to write books that interest every reader.
But to infer that not meeting his needs means we’re not meeting other people’s needs is a stretch. And to call 37signals a “hobby” reveals a shallow understanding of what’s really happening. 37signals is a business in every definition of the word. A healthy, profitable, debt-free one at that.
Curating feature requests
Also, there may be a misunderstanding of what we mean when we say we design for ourselves first. This does not mean we just ignore feature requests. We’ll say it yet again: Just about everything we add to our product these days starts as a customer request.
We invite and encourage requests in our forums and in our customer satisfaction surveys. We get thousands of requests a year via email too. We learn a lot about how we can improve our products from our customers.
But ultimately we add just a tiny fraction of these requests to our products. It doesn’t mean we don’t listen, it means we pay attention to the the dirty secret of software design: It’s pretty easy to mess up a good thing by overdoing it. Saying yes too often doesn’t benefit anybody.
We listen to customers but we also listen to our own guts and hearts. We believe great companies don’t blindly follow customers, they blaze a path for them.
And here’s another truth you discover when you deal with a massive customer base: There’s more contradiction than there is agreement. One person wants this, one person wants that, another person says the first person is crazy, another one says if you do what the second person said then they’ll cancel their account.
That’s why it’s our job to be editors. To be software feature curators. To pick out the ideas that will benefit the most people and disappoint the least people. And sometimes that means doing nothing at all.
Which brings be me another choice quote by Jobs:
Innovation comes… from saying no to 1,000 things to make sure we don’t get on the wrong track or try to do too much. We’re always thinking about new markets we could enter, but it’s only by saying no that you can concentrate on the things that are really important.
The Southwest Airlines parallel
Curiously, Norman suggests using Southwest Airlines as a model. He then proceeds to detail how Southwest refuses customer requests because it understands that customers actually have more critical needs: low fares and ontime service.
If Norman actually understood what we do, he would see we actually do almost the same thing as Southwest, but in the software realm: Southwest listens to their customers and then innovates, creates, and often says “no” on behalf of their customers. It’s Southwest’s job to be the editor. Southwest decides what’s right for their company, their employees, and their customers. And it does this based on a variety of inputs—one of them being customer feedback, another one of them being maintaining the spirit and core values of Southwest. Marketing, business rules, shareholder value, opportunity cost, resources, among other things, round out the wide range of things that must be considered when people make requests.
This is exactly what we do. We listen, we internalize, we consider, and we act. Sometimes that means not acting on a request. Sometimes it means taking a request, unraveling the true intent, and building a solution that wasn’t originally imagined. Sometimes we do exactly what people ask for because it makes sense. And sometimes we listen to ourselves instead—if we don’t think a popular request is true to the product we won’t add it. I don’t think Professor Norman would be willing to teach material he doesn’t believe in. If he did, he’d be doing his audience a disservice.
We love our customers
Also, we don’t show disdain for our customers, as Norman suggests. We love our customers and the overwhelming majority love us back. It’s not a fluke that we’ve been in business for 9 years. It’s not a fluke that over 2,000,000 people have Basecamp accounts. It’s not a fluke that almost all our business is generated through word of mouth referrals. It’s not a fluke that 94% of our customers would recommend Basecamp to a colleague or friend (96% said they’d recommend Backpack too). It’s not a fluke that we’ve doubled our revenues and net income every year since 2004 (our revenues were “multimillion” in 2007). These things happen and continue to happen for precisely one reason: We keep our customers happy.
Don Norman’s process
Not that it’d ever happen, but it’d be interesting to see Norman try our approach for his next book. He could invite his customers (previous book buyers, in his case) to post their chapter and topic requests in a public forum. Then he could run some customer surveys.
He’d get a list of a few thousand possible topics and chapters. Would he include every single one of them in the book? I doubt it. I think his response would go something like this: “Well, I can’t write everything they want me to write. I don’t even agree with some of it. I don’t have time to write 1000 chapters. And a 5000 page book wouldn’t be usable, affordable, or practical.”
Then he would probably go on to say, “We did look through all the requests and did get some good ideas. We edited the possible list of topics down to what we thought were the best ones. And then we edited that list down even further. And then we wrote the book. And then we edited what we wrote even further. And then we made judgement calls about what should stay an what should go. And it ended up being a much better book.”
Editing doesn’t mean you don’t care. In fact, it shows that you really do care. Editors show great respect for the audience by being a trusted filter. Dumping the kitchen sink on people doesn’t do anyone any favors.
We disagree
The reason why our products don’t meet Norman’s needs is because we disagree with him on what to put in our software. That’s fine. We don’t think our way is the only way. There are plenty of alternatives in the market. People should use what works best for them. Hopefully, Norman isn’t truly shortsighted enough to think that any product that takes a different point of view from his own is “bound to fail.” If so, who’s the arrogant one then?
AaronS
on 10 Mar 08These are the type of posts that keep me coming back every single day. Wonderful.
Tim
on 10 Mar 08I really don’t understand the need to post a direct reply to Norman’s post.
Nonetheless, this post was written well. So kudos I say :)
DougC
on 10 Mar 08I’ve used all your apps for over a year now and I love them. Our clients love them.
But I have to agree that you guys do come across quite arrogant at times. I think this because of the tone of your blog postings over the past several months.
I can’t say I’m right or wrong – it’s just my take.
aw
on 10 Mar 08I think part of this “arrogant” bit (which I don’t agree with) is a misunderstanding of 37S making bold statements about design. When reading stuff on the web, unless you have couple hundred smiley faces, something simple can sound like the writer is ticked. If you met JF or DHH before, their really chill down to earth guys. And they’ve picked up on Apple way of doing great design. I’d venture to say the great companies of today, Apple & Google both, use this methodology. It’s given them great success.
Because 37S doesn’t blindly follow the industry norm of listening to your customers like loyal lemmings, it doesn’t mean their arrogant. Perhaps they “Think Different” and people don’t like that. It makes them feel uncomfortable and their research (in their mind) invalid.
Tyler C Hellard
on 10 Mar 08I’m with you guys. You can’t kill yourself worrying about every single customer need. It leads to a lot of churn and wheel spinning. You’re spot on with your assessment that problems are common, and solutions should be developed for yourself first, then fine tuned based on everyone else. Nice work.
Peter
on 10 Mar 08Jason – your post is complete rubbish. You moved the goalpost. Either own the Wired article or disown it – don’t be talkin about how x, y, and z person got whatever wrong, etc – it’s dishonest.
If you were misquoted, say so.
If you were a bit too egotistical and self-centered, say so.
This post is nothing but throwing all sorts of half-responses at straw men. If Hansson is not designing for other people, fine by me – but own it. You either are or you are not designing for other people – whether Steve Jobs is a product genius or not has zero to do with 37Signals and the incredible arrogance and contempt for customers shown in that Wired article.
Don’t be like Microsoft’s PR department and try to spin your way out of a troubling article – if you need to walk it back, do so explicitly.
Personally, I enjoy some of the arrogance – but in the Wired article 37Signals came off as a bunch of rude kids with utter contempt for your customers. That’s the truth. It’s in writing. You can come correct or you can play this game and have your fanboys defend you the same as Jobs’ fanboys defend him.
What’s it gonna be?
Jeff
on 10 Mar 08Clearly, something about the way you present yourselves strikes some people as arrogant. Boo hoo.
If you change your tone or approach, I’ll cancel my account!
stacy
on 10 Mar 08An analogy that fits 37s is from the movie Top Gun. When Val said to Mavrick “It’s not your flying. You’re great up there. It’s your attitude. ...”
The 37s arrogance shows thru just as much as their simplicity in their products. That’s why people are always talking about it.
Brad
on 10 Mar 08Why take it so personally? These guys are making products that many people like, and they’ve got a lively, interesting blog. Sure, there’s a certain tone to it that is sometimes arrogant, but that’s part of what makes it fun to read. I generally don’t sit on the fence about what I read here – I agree or I disagree, and that’s in large part because the 37s crew paints with such broad strokes. They don’t couch their opinions in a bunch of conciliatory mumbo-jumbo just to make it agreeable to everyone. In a politically correct society, that’s refreshing. And from a marketing standpoint, it’s working darn well—we all know what these guys think, and most of us keep coming back for more. Strong opinions are great discussion starters.
I do think it’s strange how people prognosticate failure for 37signals (the Wired article, this Don Norman piece). Designing software for themselves sure seems to be working great so far – why do people suggest they have to be either a Microsoft-like (or Southwest-like) behemoth or no one at all? Sure, there are things I wish they’d add/change about their products… but that’s their prerogative, and they can analyze the business case on their own. As for me, it’s my prerogative to stop paying if I choose to… and if I’m offended by an arrogant tone, well, I can stop reading. I don’t have to suggest that they’re doomed simply because my feathers are ruffled.
Scott Marley
on 10 Mar 08Concluding that someone you’ve never met personally is arrogant, or any other adjective, on the basis of one magazine or newspaper story is pretty naive. To go even further and publically scold someone you’ve never met personally on the basis of that one story is just silly and presumptuous.
Journalists often make up their minds about what story they’re going to tell very early in the process, pick the quotes that support their take on things, and insert running commentary of their own to glue it all together and make sure the reader knows what story the writer is trying to tell. All too often the writer is hellbent on telling a story, imposing some kind of mythic structure he or she is often not even conscious of, that isn’t really justified by the material.
“Flying in the face of conventional wisdom,” the writer writes, “Smith believes that X is almost always Y. ‘Sure,’ Smith said in a recent interview, ‘once in a while X is Y.’ But others disagree. ‘X is only occasionally Y,’ pooh-poohs Jones …”
And even if that’s not what’s going on, people are complex and a story has to reduce them to a few main traits. So making up your mind about someone whom you only know through the filter of the perception of someone else whom you don’t know at first hand either is a pretty foolish thing to do.
Anonymous Coward
on 10 Mar 08Haters! You guys are all #3:
http://swissmiss.typepad.com/weblog/2008/03/apple-google-an.html
BR
on 10 Mar 08arrogant company vs. meek company
37signals | Salesforce
Apple | Microsoft
Google | Yahoo
Nintendo | Sony Computer Entertainment
hmmmm….
Anonymous Coward
on 10 Mar 08@BR
Everyone on the left is far more successful and loved by their customers.
Saurabh Nanda
on 10 Mar 08My comment is also on my blog: http://nandz.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-if-you-cant-design-for-yourself.html
Apart from the flame war that’s going on the comments section there, there is one thing about the “design for yourself” philosophy that has intrigued me. What if you really aren’t designing for yourself? What if the software that you are developing/designing is not for your daily use? For example an accounting+finance system that is to be used by hardcore accountants? Do you not concede to how the end user wants the software to function? Don’t you lose confidence in your “gut feel” automatically?
The products that 37signals are working on are general purpose products, as such. A project management tool, todo list, CRM application can be used by any company or department. What about specialized software? Can we apply the same principles there?
Jeff Atwood
on 10 Mar 08I agree that Norman’s criticisms are a little harsh, but at this point it’s about perception. I actually admire 37signals quite a bit (and have since 2004 when I discovered basecamp), but it’s difficult for me to reconcile this admiration with some of the needlessly inflammatory statements DHH has made:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001065.html
It is possible to be gracious and inclusive while creating fantastic products that delight customers.
JF
on 10 Mar 08@Peter:
Either own the Wired article or disown it
I didn’t write the Wired article so I have nothing to own or disown. We posted our take on the article and will stand by that.
What’s it gonna be?
Here’s how it is:
1. We start by designing software to solve our own problems. We scratch our own itch.
2. We recognize our problems aren’t unique. Other people can benefit from the way we solve our problems. So we turn our software into products and put them into the marketplace.
3. Over time more and more people use them. They give us their feedback.
4. We consider their feedback, our feedback, and a variety of other inputs.
5. We improve the products over time. Not everyone agrees with the improvements (or lack of improvements).
6. People who like our stuff and our direction continue to use our products. They tell their friends and colleagues. The word spreads and our business grows. Those who don’t like our products and our direction cancel and either use something else or nothing at all. And some of those who cancel end up coming back.
7. We continue to learn from our customers. We continue to have our own ideas. We continue to incorporate both inputs into our product. We continue to build our business.
8. We take care of our employees so they’re happy too. Happy people make better decisions. Better decisions make better products.
9. We look forward to our 9th year in business and our 4th year of consecutive 100% revenue and net profit growth.
Sam O
on 10 Mar 08ar·ro·gant –adjective
Making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud.If the products were to speak, they would speak with utter modesty. Their simplicity is in fact a medium of communication.
The arrogance of the founders coupled in a synergistic marriage with the modesty of the products have created a soft of ying/yang equilibrium of feelings.
In all honesty, the most common outcome of this meeting of the feelings, to those that care enough, can be only one of two things. Fanboyism, or Jealousy. Both of which are needed to create a following and sustainable admiration.
My advice, brush your shoulders off, and keep it going boys.
Sam
Gustavo Beathyate
on 10 Mar 08Well, the way I feel about it is that there is a sense of rudeness in the way you express yourselves, as in, my word is final and if you don’t agree you are an idiot/inferior. That’s the kind of arrogant vibe I get from you guys.
And it’s a separate thing from your products. I use basecamp and I love ruby on rails. But you’ve built this aura around you and your company that I wish was different. The same happens with Apple. I don’t think you should take your success for granted, neither should Apple.
JM
on 10 Mar 08“To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men-that is genius.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson
“My idea of a group decision is to look in the mirror.” —Warren Buffet
JF
on 10 Mar 08Well, the way I feel about it is that there is a sense of rudeness in the way you express yourselves, as in, my word is final and if you don’t agree you are an idiot/inferior. That’s the kind of arrogant vibe I get from you guys.
I’m sorry we’ve left you with that impression. I hope you’ll give us a chance to change your mind.
As we said in the post, and have said on many occasions before, we don’t think our way is the only way. It’s one way. We’re excited about our way. We recognize there are many ways to do things. There are lots of paths to success. We wish everyone success however they achieve it. We do what we can to help other people be successful.
Correlating our passion for our opinions with disdain for other people’s opinions and is an incorrect association. We’re inspired by a lot of people that look at the world entirely differently than we do.
I don’t think you should take your success for granted, neither should Apple.
We don’t. I can’t speak for Apple, but I don’t think they do either. That’s why they continue to come out with killer products. We hope we’re on the same path.
Mitch
on 10 Mar 08I love your products. I run a small software company and use just about all of them except the CRM.
I’ve read your book and think it is great, I’ve actually implemented several of the concepts into my own design. So I guess that puts me in the category of a fan.
However you guys do sound arrogant. You probably are not so in person, but we have to remember that our perceptions are our reality. I think the real issue is that it is hard to convey passion in writing without tone, and body language. But that is cool, your attitude is part of who you are, and I’m sure that is part of the reason you are able to attract great software developers, since most of the good ones are arrogant about their designs, my self included.
So to sum it up, don’t sweat it, by engaging bad press you give them your voice. You are arrogant, so what? Nobody is perfect, and at the end of the day like with southwest, I want to use your products, not your attitude.
Mike
on 10 Mar 08It seems like a lot of the recent negativity aimed towards 37signals is really missing [my perceived] point of 37signals’ products.
As a designer, I use Illustrator all the time, it has about a bazillion features. It also has a rather steep learning curve, and beyond the basics, it takes a lot of time and effort to learn how to use well. But, because design is what I do all day everyday, it was worth it to learn. Microsoft Paint just doesn’t do the trick.
On the other hand, project management isn’t what I do, nor do I want to spend a lot of time learning a project management tool. Basecamp’s simple, intuitive approach does a great job taking care of my project management needs. If I was a project manager, it might a be a different story (although, admittedly I haven’t heard many of the basecamp-wielding PM’s I work with complaining much).
MattH
on 10 Mar 08Poke, poke, is that a nerve? Whoa, yep!
I thought the first 25% of the response was plenty. The rest sounded defensive, boastful and yes, arrogant. Relax JF, let DHH put out his own fires.
BTW, I thought about subscribing to Norman until I read this in the update to his first post: “Simplicity should never be the goal.” What?? How long will it take to erase that statement from my memory?? Please don’t let any of the developers/designers that I know see that!!
Joshua Works
on 10 Mar 08I think a lot of people actually confuse modesty for this notion of arrogance/selfishness. Not necessarily intuitive, but to draw attention to the fact “our way isn’t the only way, but we love it” (i.e. “our way is different”) is to draw attention to to the fact that some people really do think their way is the only way (i.e. “we’re doing what everyone else is doing, best!”).
It’s this humane modesty that people are not accustomed to hearing from an uber-successfuly company founder. Instead, they expect some PR-speak, ala: “Basecamp Millenium Edition is the greatest project management software on the market! We’ve poured years of research and millions of dollars of development into refining the best experience possible! We know you’ll enjoy!!” and for some reason, that doesn’t come off arrogant at all—just typical, trite monolith speak.
It’s not that you’re arrogant or selfish. It’s that your different. And people hate that.
Geoff
on 10 Mar 08Were it not for the output, then I’d support the arrogance claims; but as they say, “it ain’t arrogance if you can back it up.”
They also say, “Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it’s done, they’ve seen it done every day, but they’re unable to do it themselves.” Or at least some Irish playwright named Behan said it.
Don Schenck
on 10 Mar 08The Software Industry is funny.
Those who know me know that I’m quite the cigar aficionado. And the best cigars are made by men (yes, men … sorry ladies) who say something like ”... so I set out to make a cigar I would love, and …”.
Is this the only industry where building what you like is taboo? Goofy.
‘sides … I am arrogant; you’re talented. There is a difference :-)
John A Davis
on 10 Mar 08Too much stuff to read. I’m off to the next blog somewhere.
Chris Ryland
on 10 Mar 08I enjoy your products (we use Campfire), but I do have to say that most of my support requests were met with what seemed like abrasive/arrogant brief responses. (Wish I could remember details.)
Perhaps it’s a language issue—you could simply change the tenor of your responses, without changing the fundamentals.
Ivan
on 10 Mar 08I think the ‘general’ feeling is that 37Signals, incluing DHH in particular, is full of arrogant people. This can lead to destruction and failure because nobody wants to deal with that kind of people. I’m starting to hear more and more about this issue, which at the end is just personal, but image people starting to not use RoR anymore.
My advice: reset and boot into ‘humble’ mode.
Mike
on 10 Mar 08I think he can probably be forgiven for this misunderstanding, since you propagated it to begin with. You said you write software for yourself, and then when Norman contrasts that with Southwest who act on behalf of their customers, you say, “Oh no wait, that’s what we do! We look out for the greater good.” Oh ok. And how is writing software for yourself the same as looking out for the greater good?
The answer is that neither you nor Apple actually write software for yourself. Steve Jobs says stuff like that because he’s a baby-boomer (the “Me” generation), so that kind of thing makes sense to him. But its kind of bullshit, because but what is really going on is that you put yourself in the shoes of your customer, and understand their needs, as opposed to assuming that the customer is an expert that can be relied on to give you a list of features that are both useful and make sense. Unfortunately, this also sounds paternalistic (hint: it is), so instead Apple and 37signals have reformulated this to mean writing software for yourself, which doesn’t sound so bad.
Think about it from Norman’s perspective—should he be going to the CEO of FacelessSoftwareCompany, Inc., and say, “Just make software for you”? No, that would be insane.
Richard Soutar
on 10 Mar 08Well, that’s why 37signals make such a great product. By know what they need. No more or less. Will basecamp work beautifully as it is right now if they trying to please everyone? That’s the character of this company. That is not arrogant.
JF
on 10 Mar 08Chris, I’d be very interested in seeing the language that you didn’t like. If it’s language we can certainly improve that. I can promise you that the intention behind the language is all good.
If you can find the email/language please forward it to me. Thanks.
Jake
on 10 Mar 08Probably not a good idea to compare yourself to Southwest just after it was revealed they were flying planes with cracks in them ;-)
Ricky Irvine
on 10 Mar 08It’s amazing how people are so dang passionate about their software (I’m one of them). It’s also amazing how developer-customer relationships have become so personal in the past several years.
DHH
on 10 Mar 08Mike, why does what we do have to work for FacelessSoftwareCompany Inc? If you don’t have strong opinions about what you’re working on and are addressing a market that you’ve modeled after your own needs, then no, you’re not designing for yourself. That’s fine too. I’m sure there are niches and branches of technology where you can’t design for yourself. Other people will use different approaches to address those markets.
That doesn’t invalidate the approach that we take, it just makes it different, fitting for other markets and other people. Which is totally fine. We have absolutely no aspirations of having a “design for yourself” approach work for all people in all situations all the time.
Mark Gallagher
on 10 Mar 08Hey Jason, these are very long replies – this reply to Norman and your reply to the Wired article.
Creates the perception of being defensive and a tad worried.
If you are confident and doing the right thing you would give no reply or a short reply and move on.
Doug
on 10 Mar 08This post from Coding Horror explains it better than the post above: UsWare vs. ThemWare
Saying someone is arrogant based on a Wired article is poor judgment. It is in the same category as judging someone based on the Operating System and programming language they use.
Ain’t nobody perfect.
SWW
on 10 Mar 08I don’t really have a dog in this hunt – I’ve read Norman and 37S and learned from both, but the evidence would seem to suggest that 37Signals is not failing and I wouldn’t bet my money on 37S flaming into ruin in the future.
But Dr. Norman seems to stop just short of saying that 37S is doomed for failure so I’m not really sure what the point of the article is in the first place.
JF
on 10 Mar 08@Mark: We use these replies as opportunities to expand on our ideas. That’s why they are longer. And longer posts seem to generate significantly more discussion and get linked up more which we like as well.
We’re not worried. We’d be worried if people weren’t talking about us. We’d also be worried if we didn’t have the energy or position to reply.
DHH
on 10 Mar 08Ivan, it’s funny because I consider it arrogant when people believe that their personal opinions or those of the group of immediate people they interact with to represent “the general feeling” (speak of being presumptuous).
We’ve had strong opinions about software for many years now. Basecamp has been out for more than four years. I started working with Ruby and put my opinions into Rails about five years ago.
So if our strong opinions and our intent to share them were going to lead to this “destruction and failure”, it would probably have happened by now. But somehow there are enough people who either agree, appreciate, respect, or sympathize with the opinions we hold and the software we produce that we continue to grow and enjoy high satisfaction ratings.
Again, that doesn’t mean that everyone has to agree. Or that even most people have to agree. You can do well just serving the needs of a small slice of the market place.
To go with another Apple example, they’re still at 5-7% market share of the computer market, yet the people in that group tend to be quite happy about their choice of computing.
Lee
on 10 Mar 08Don: A little less arrogance and a lot more empathy would turn these brilliant programmers into a brilliant company, a brilliant success.
He’s right and if 37s want a wider appeal for their products, like they say, they’ll need to design for other people and not themselves/fan club.
Derek Nelson
on 10 Mar 08It’s seems like the attitude of 37 Signals is moving in front of the of the products it creates. I believe that 37 Signals feels passionately about their products and customers and it’s a shame that it isn’t coming across.
I enjoy using Basecamp and Backpack (and I’ve recommended it to others that now feel the same way) very much and gravitate toward companies that speak passionately about their products and stick to their guns.
I’m not sure that this post really responds to the problem that some people are having. The problem doesn’t seem to be the software or why it has the features it has; it seems to be the general perception of 37 Signals by the minority (Given the customer numbers that were presented above) and I’m not sure that stating how 37 Signals is just like Apple or how many happy customers they have is really helping change the perception.
Ahmad Alhashemi
on 10 Mar 08You have to design it for yourself first?
That’s why all electronic medical record systems suck. For one, they are designed for different people: doctors, pharmacists, nurses, management. You can’t be all those people.
PS: better be careful next time with that find and replace ;)
Penguin Pete
on 10 Mar 08What? Did Don Norman say something? That’s nice. What was it this time? “Goo goo ga ga” or “Coo coo joo poo”?
Of course Don Norman hates 37. He hates me, too. He hates anybody who says “People are NOT stupid, people can learn, I can learn, let me show you how I learned so you can learn too.”
Don Norman is a deacon in the Cult of Ignorance, and I’m not kidding. He’s on the same page as Chip and Dan Heath, authors of the “curse of knowledge” paper recently blabbed in the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/business/30know.html?_r=1&em&ex=1199163600&en=713399c1bea41fea&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin
Same concept. See, if you’ll only be so kind as to hand $20 to the Normans and Heaths of this world, they’ll explain to you that smart is stupid, experts are laymen, learning is arrogance, and geniuses are morons. And anybody who disagrees with them is automatically an arrogant elitist, just like anybody who disagrees with US foreign policy is automatically a terrorist.
You go, Norman and Heath! You just keep preaching to the rest of us how you’re smarter than everybody else, just because you’re “zero-gravity thinkers” who deliberately set out to be willfully ignorant. I like when they do that, because belief in the Cult of Ignorance is a great test to screen out idiots you don’t want working for you in the first place!
Arash Tavakolie
on 10 Mar 08I am neither a 37S customer nor a Ruby developer, C# here; however I have read your ebook and pretty much agree with 90% of the material.
Designing simple apps is harder than ‘complex’ apps. it needs thinking, iterating, and refining.
“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Mimo
on 10 Mar 08Don Norman is a good writer but not an entrepreneur. He would’t be able to lead a business like South West Airlines, even if he would be in that industry.
vineire
on 10 Mar 08@stacy – you just ‘called the ball’! Love Top Gun references…
clifyt
on 10 Mar 08I will say that I don’t disagree with Don Normal—ya’ll make great software, but have an incredibly insulting response to anyone that thinks it needs to be more or less. I’ve seen one of my postings to this site get the same treatment.
The funny this is, this is how I use to treat my own customers…seeing some of the responses here actually made me realize that some of my own posts to clients were a bit dickish. Didn’t make my statements to them any less true…but there are other ways to go about it. I’m still learning…I know I’m better than I was a year ago, and I’ll be better in another year. Hell, there is probably a better way of saying what I’m saying now…
Great software and I read this blog because I learn something most of the time I’m here…even if it is just that you are right and even if you were wrong before and changed your mind, you’ll invent reasons why you are still right.
Thats what we love about you boys!
Mimo
on 10 Mar 08Read the story about Porsche. They were doing great sport cars. Then they tried to please everybody by doing sport cars for everybody and failed.
Wendelin Wiedeking was the manager to steer the boat then. He stoped producing all that rubbish everybodyporsches and concentrated on the jewel 911. He suceeded.
Now Porsche is goingt to buy Volkswagen.
Anonymous Coward
on 10 Mar 08@clitfy
an incredibly insulting response to anyone that thinks it needs to be more or less.
Cut back on the hyperbole. “incredible insulting to anyone”—ANYONE? ALWAYS? That’s a flat out misrepresentation.
Look at their responses in this thread so far. Measured, calm, directed, and fair. Go dig through 3 years of SvN. Pull out every comment anyone from 37signals has ever made. Are they all “incredible insulting to anyone who disagrees” or are there maybe a handful or two out of a thousand that could be construed as insulting?
From my experience here I’ve seen a lot more commenters be insulting towards 37signals than 37signals insulting a commenter. There are some incredibly mean people who comment here on SvN.
Everyone is human. A few slips here is to be expected. But to suggest that everything they say is “incredibly insulting to anyone” who disagrees is purely unfair.
Mimo
on 10 Mar 08Some numbers about Porsche.
Before Wiedeking was in charge of Porsche they were worth 300 Million €. Now they are worth 25 billion €.
Don Norman is not who is going to decide what is a good business and what not. Numbers do that.
Chris Shepherd
on 10 Mar 08Your attitude towards your work and what you talk about is great, and towards software development. Big fan of that.
I know that you’ll say it’s only discussion but replying to articles like this feels childish. I personally would probably ignore it, but putting it on the front page of your blog with a long reply feels like us vs the world which isn’t great for software.
Again, I know that you’ll say that the post title is carefully worded ‘disagree’ rather than saying ‘why we think Don Norman is wrong’.
Walter Davis
on 10 Mar 08@Chris Ryland—My one and only interaction with the support team was pretty successful, in my opinion.
Me: When I click upload, the little icon starts pulsing and never stops.
37: Hey, look, you found a bug in the multiple file upload thing we just introduced.
37: I just committed a patch to fix it. Try again now.
Me: Yup, works great now.
Adam
on 10 Mar 08Jason, what’s your take on Chris Anderson’s “freeconomy”. You charge for your software and seem to be doing well. Is it a threat? An asset?
Mike Trotzke
on 10 Mar 08It’s gotten a little semantic, but it doesn’t get much better than two of my favorites duking it out.
37Signals is arrogant. You have to have some arrogance to be effectively persuasive. But if you are being perceived as arrogant when attempting to share you ideas, you are loosing ground.
Norman looses me when he claims “Make it simple and people won’t buy”. While I’m sure that’s true in some cases, it’s a pretty glaring over simplification for someone arguing the virtues of complexity. It doesn’t do much to account for the consumer success of the iPod, Wii or DS.
Normans trying to take a business approach centered around customer acquisition. But he leaves out the idea of margins entirely. Edge cases tend to drive down margins. More features may attract additional edge case customers, but at what cost?
Regardless… This is a great debate.
David Holtz
on 10 Mar 08I agree with a couple folks above. I was surprised to see you invest the time in a response to Norman. I realize this likely comes from the excitement and hub-bub surrounding the Wired article. I’d be excited, too.
I’d also be the first to admit I love a good argument. I guess I just wonder if responding to Norman’s completely ill-informed article in a public forum is worth investing time on.
It’s unfortunate that a published writer, such as Norman, would be so quick to attack a business when he clearly has little understanding of your philosophies. His article seems like bait. I know you have better things to worry about. He sounds jealous to me.
Keep doing what you do. You’ve got my support, you arrogant sons of bitches :)
Mike
on 10 Mar 08Oh, I don’t know, maybe because the Wired article is titled, The Brash Boys at 37signals Will Tell You: Keep it Simple, Stupid. And they call you a philosopher-king with a new way of thinking about business and software. That you are right and everyone else is wrong? So yeah, you are kind of represented in the classic journalistic narrative, as the plucky underdog overturning conventional wisdom who go on to Win In The End, with a bit of a surprise ending, “Or do they???” to stay tuned for the sequel.
If this is not true, and you don’t see yourself that way, then I’m sure you are devastated about how you were so badly misrepresented in the article, and you are just putting the finishing touches on a lengthy blog post entitled “Wired is wrong about us!” Right?
Dipsy
on 10 Mar 08Well I am not sure, had 37Signals created a project management solution on basis of what everyone need, would they had ever come up with Basecamp? Everyone talked of project management as Gantt Charts, following some bullshit SDLC etc at those times. With Basecamp, they showed that in many cases project management is as simple as managing the communication effectively.
I think thats fair enough, when they say, that their software is meant to solve problems for some set of people and not everyone. Sometimes all you need to cut an apple is a kitchen knife. I am pretty sure you would not like to have a sword in kitchen. :)
It unfortunate that people end up taking this as arrogance. Probably 37Signals needs to use their words more wisely. But I do appreciate the intentions of you guys. I hope you guys carry on good work.
By the way I don’t use Basecamp, it doesn’t fit my needs, neither MS Project. Maybe I am too lazy developer to use project management software. Anyone out their to design project management software for lazy developers? Anyone who can design to this need? :)
Grant
on 10 Mar 08Maybe a really simple solution is to learn to edit your public personas a bit better. Find someone who can say “no” on your behalf whenever one of you has the urge to engage in some douchebaggery™.
Seriously, let your work speak for itself. It’ll do wonderfully fine on its own, especially without you or David undermining it by spouting a bunch of asshat-isms. Great products are used not heard?
Grant
on 10 Mar 08Thanks for the post. I always enjoy learning more about how/why you guys do business the way you do.
Reading the comments I find it interesting how ‘arrogance’ seems to be the point of controversy for many people whether talking about 37s or companies like Apple. While I’m not saying successful people aren’t sometimes arrogant, I wonder how much of a perception of arrogance gets created simply from being right or successful. I’ve never read anything from 37s that leads me to believe you’re arrogant, but you are definitely confident AND have the numbers to back up any of the positions you take. That sure makes you right, a lot. I think a lot of people, including Don Norman, are mistaking that for arrogance.
Austen
on 10 Mar 08Chef analogy. Perfect.
Stick it to the man.
DHH
on 10 Mar 08Mike, as Jason already pointed out there were plenty of things in that article that we didn’t agree with. But where exactly does it say “That you are right and everyone else is wrong?”?
Wired interviewed us about what we’re doing and how we’re having success doing that. Naturally, we think that others can benefit from looking at that way of doing things. That’s why we write and share our thoughts on software development. But again, taking that as the only way is a construct of your interpretation.
Silviu
on 10 Mar 08Hey, it’s called free market—the natural selection of the business world! If your product is not useful, you will have no clients. No clients equals no business.
Anonymous Coward
on 10 Mar 08Just write a huge long list of all the functionality your products currently have and he will think you are geniuses.
SB
on 10 Mar 08I’ve learned in life that almost anytime you speak with passion AND authority on a given subject, you will be called arrogant. So be it.
Dhrumil
on 10 Mar 08I just wanted to say that 37signals is doing amazing stuff. I use a paid version of every product they have. My life is so much better because of it.
Seth Aldridge
on 10 Mar 08Wow…I’ve read about 90% of this page and there is a huge deal being made out of nothing!!! 37s owns their company…you use their products. If you don’t like their tone or their products then don’t use them. It’s amazing how difficult that is to get across. Who gives a shit if there arrogant? They make really effective products and charge very little for them. $150 to be able to manage an unlimited amount of projects is unheard of for such a renowned piece of software.
You people are acting like they’ve done something wrong by standing up for themselves. If someone called my company arrogant and said my company was a hobby I’d write about it as well. Silence is acquiescence.
Jack Shedd
on 10 Mar 08I think the bigger mistake is taking a Jason Fried or David Hansson sound bite so literally.
Michael
on 10 Mar 08Here’s a question for the 37signals collective:
What kind of image do you want your company to have?
(I’m not talking about your products, but the gestalt of the comapny itself.)
It could be an interesting blog post on its own from each of the employees.
LSF
on 10 Mar 08Sorry, but you demonstrate disdain to any user of assistive technology, e.g. a screen reader. Or are they not your users? Oh, I guess not.
MikeInAZ
on 10 Mar 08It’s like this:
[critic] You suck, 37signals!
[37s] We don’t think we suck, why do you say that?
[critic2] Jeez, 37signals guys are so defensive.
[critic] I agree they are arrogant too!
[37s] No we’re not, we believe in some things and we try to explain why. Sometimes when we don’t qualify every possible edge case, we get criticized for not addressing that edge case.
[critic] There they go again, getting all defensive and writing long blog posts about it.
[critic2] They should tone done their language.
[critic] Yes, I agree, then they’ll be successful.
[37s] We try our best be respectful and we are successful.
[critic2] Wow! Tooting your own horn again. What a bunch of arrogant SOBs!
LOL
Jack Shedd
on 10 Mar 08It’s also weird to see you guys try to compare yourselves to Apple.
To me, Apple’s design philosophy is more about reducing concepts than reducing features. All of Apple’s products are incredibly robust, with features all over the damn place. They just have a very keen sense of how to add those features correctly and how to abstract out certain concepts so that things feel simple in the right places.
Using your products daily going on four years, I’d say 37signals is more about simplifying the interface than simplifying the concepts.
mindful_learner
on 10 Mar 08I wonder if Norman’s take has anything to do with his relationship with some big, complex software companies such as Microsoft? I can’t help think he may have some vested interest in trying to say, ‘oh it’s easy for you guys to make something simple, you only solve simple problems. It’s much harder for guys making big, complex applications like Microsoft Office perhaps..’
I’m thinking Norman is now in danger of jumping the shark.
I can’t help but think in his early career he would have been a champion of the work of 37 signals. I’m beginning to worry he’s reached the ‘being paid to live off former glories’ stage of his career. I hope he doesn’t go the way of Nielsen..
Mindful
Indi
on 10 Mar 08@Gustavo: Well, the way I feel about it is that there is a sense of rudeness in the way you express yourselves, as in, my word is final and if you don’t agree you are an idiot/inferior.
My take on what 37s says in this regard is “This is what we think and it works for us. It’s fine if you disagree, that’s your prerogative. It’s also fine if you don’t like or use our products. Have a nice day.”
The only sense of rudeness I can imagine here is when someone chooses not to try to convince you towards their point of view it can come off as indifference towards you. I personally only see that as not finding much value in argument when the person you are talking to already has their mind set. In a social setting you would probably change the subject and move on. In the blog world, you make your case and then move on.
Beau
on 10 Mar 08I think people forget this is just a blog. A place for 37signals to share their thoughts and opinions as they wish.
So they don’t hem and haw, and begin their posts by apologizing for their opinions.
Seems reasonable to me.
jan korbel
on 10 Mar 08MikeInAZ: Precisely!
Shane Pinnell
on 10 Mar 08I would like to add my own 2 cents…
37 Signals software is not simple, I think the word “simple” isn’t the proper adjective here. It is like saying a Ferrari or Porsche is simple. A Ferrari is simple, it is merely a collection of aluminum, carbon, steel, leather and plastics. There isn’t much to the car that is revolutionary or mind blowing, it is just a car. Not any more complex or complicated than a Ford or Chevy. It is only with the skill and craftsmanship of engineering, design and production teams that the simple Ferrari or Porsche transcends the simplicity of it’s self. If it were simple, I could do it.
Jim
on 10 Mar 08I think you just need to stop letting David speak, there have been I don’t know how many articles now saying what a prick he is. Most of the really controversial stuff here is from him. Jason, you are the Dale Carnegie win friends type…but you continually have to reinterpret what David was trying to say.
We all came here because we saw something we liked, but eventually he will alienate enough people that there will be very few left.
David Andersen
on 10 Mar 08Confidence is frequently misread as arrogance, especially by people with less confidence.
Kung Fu
on 10 Mar 08The student has become the master…
J Lane
on 10 Mar 08There are so many comments talking about “tone”! How can you interpret tone so clearly through a blog post?
“That’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard”
Am I being condescending saying that, or am I just stating a fact? Without the ability to hear the tone of my voice or see my facial expression, how can you tell?
Yes, a lot of the blog posts on SvN have a “here’s the way it is” tone to them, but it’s way better than writing in a wishy washy passive tone. SvN is an expression of opinion, something that 37s has reminded readers of over and over again. If their opinion differs from yours, they aren’t trying to offend you.
Mark
on 10 Mar 08Norman is a UI critic, not a designer. 37signals probably knows more about the real challenges of designing software. That said, I’ve been negatively impressed by 37signals poo-pooing of user research. Don’t let Steve Jobs fool you – Apple certainly does user research. On the other hand, some designers apply textbook processes and come up with bad designs. 37signals does it their own way and designs good stuff. Its silly to criticize someone’s process if they have a good track record. What should a new designer do? Initially, you could cover your ass and follow the textbook. But ultimately you must figure out the process that works best for you and your organization to produce great stuff.
Joe Dirt
on 10 Mar 08I find it funny that 37s could compare themselves to apple and Jobs.
- Apple is a proven multi billion dollar company who has been there since the beginning.
- They design products that appeal to a mass market compared to you who admittedly only design for a small segment of the population.
- Yes apple makes products that are simple to use but it is not because of lack of features, what makes them great is that they can ADD great features and still keep their products just as easy to use. 37s doesn’t add features because they think it would make it harder to use.
- And do you really think Jobs is happy with only 5-7% of the computer market? How about the ipod or iphone market?
You should really stop comparing yourselves to Apple
David Chatsuthiphan
on 10 Mar 08Don Norman misses the plot entirely. There are many ways to run a software business. If you aim to reach the broadest user base possible (like Microsoft) you’ll have to use Don Norman’s user testing approach. Or, you could build software that makes you and your small team happy and see if people use it. Neither way is right or wrong, just different.
What’s more important is that the company is there to support and version the software for a long time. The world operates on incentives. If a company is motivated by so called arrogance, who cares? At least they are motivated. Motivated people make great products because they stick with it.
And, since when is arrogance bad? Every successful person is arrogant. You have to believe that you, your product or your service is better than the competition. No way around that one (unless you were that person who invented the PostIt).
Don’s essay “Why is 37signals so arrogant?” confuses me. He criticizes arrogance without realizing, in doing so, he is proving himself to be arrogant. A modest person would have written nothing at all.
Mihira Jayasekera
on 10 Mar 08I’ve also long been an admirer of Norman, so I’m especially dismayed by his attack. What’s most baffling is that, in an audio-recorded Core77 interview with Bruce Tharp last November, Norman made several statements that completely agree with the sentiment of DHH’s quote about 37signals designing “for themselves”.
Here’s another quote of Norman praising Steve Jobs for what might be construed as designing for himself:
Norman’s criticisms of you guys are unfounded, and based on a quote taken out of context. In his condescending addendum to his article, he quotes Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Too bad he hasn’t taken his own advice.
Mark Holton
on 11 Mar 08Awesome.
Sam
on 11 Mar 08The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Ron Green
on 11 Mar 08I think his concern stems from an attitude that I see quite often as a developer. You could not possible understand the uniqueness of my needs. Why that would be like wearing an off the shelf shirt. Of course I must have custom tailored shirts. In other words it is a form of arrogance. One of the first things I noticed about 37signals was your ability to address a prplem field and then just nail the solution. Keep up the good work. I find it inspirational.
Greg Hoy
on 11 Mar 08This reminds me of all the people who moan about disliking Howard Stern because of the crazy things he says on the radio.
If you don’t like what these guys have to say or how they say it, move on. I’m about the 88th commenter here. I’d sure say they’re doing something right.
Good lord
on 11 Mar 08ITT: people complain because they don’t know the usage of words, whine when they feel they’re being condescended to, and fail to comprehend simple sentences.
JH
on 11 Mar 08Who really gives a shit about the code monkeys who pound out software?
I hate myself for buying into this notion that you guys have anything to offer other people OTHER THAN your software.You made some nice software, I even paid for it. Big fucking deal.
JPB
on 11 Mar 08Yes, you (Jason) are arrogant as many chefs in the kitchen…... Yes, you make great products. (I am a customer of All products) There also great chefs that make great food but are NOT arrogant and work more then 4 days a week ;-)
Jamie Oliver is a great chef but not arrogant !
This post is not necessary as others above have pointed out, don’t try to justify your behavior. Go and continue what your are good in, make software !
Thank you
MattMc
on 11 Mar 08Yes! Unfortunately for Don Norman, designing for you is a [great] way of designing for other people. Unless you happen to believe, as Mr. Norman may, that other people aren’t like you. Arrogance indeed…
spede
on 11 Mar 08now that your fanboi community has spoken, what next?
BenC
on 11 Mar 08@Jack Shed: Look at the original iPod critics—their primary complaints were about lack of features (well, after lack of Windows compatibility). “What? No FM Radio?! No removable battery? This will bomb!”
As for reducing interface elements vs reducing conceptual elements, these often go hand in hand. If you reduce the number of inputs, you are forced to rethink the way users will interact with your software. As you do that, you might find that features people are used to having (and consider integral) actually aren’t.
Tim
on 11 Mar 08I think there’s good and bad types of arrogance and 37signals have both.
The good type is exactly as Jason’s written. I agree completely with the philosophy of designing simple tools that you’d want to use yourself. If you try to add every feature people ask for you’ll end up with a bloated, hard to use mess. There’s even a name for it – “enterprise software”. So on that front guys, please don’t change.
Unfortunately there’s also a bad type of arrogance here which is more about being narrow minded – probably best demonstrated by DHH’s “You’re not on a fu!%ing plane” post. 37signals freely admit that their software isn’t for everyone which is fine. Where there’s a problem is that they’re often vocally dismissive of other people’s needs or situation. It’s ok if you don’t want to develop occasionally connected apps, but it’s arrogant to tell people they don’t need them. I’m a pilot. I need them!
The worst thing about this arrogance is that it limits your potential. Whether it’s client apps or installable server software, it’s never a problem if you don’t want to go there. But I’d just like to see 37signals saying “not now” more often than “never” and certianly more often than “you don’t fu!%ing need it.”
Leo Klein
on 11 Mar 08I kind of like a few of the things Don Norman has to say. Particularly the part about “The mark of the great designer …” but I totally disagree that your guys’ approach has anything to do with ‘arrogance’.
All you’re doing is saying you use the same product that you sell to others. It’s a personal endorsement and companies do it all the time.
Jack Shedd
on 11 Mar 08BenC – you’re looking at it the wrong way around. The features missing in the original iPod (some of which have since been added) were removed to make the device conceptually simpler. When it first debuted, the iPod was only what was needed for dealing with MP3s stored on it’s hard drive. They solved the feature problems around that concept in very elegant ways, and removed any feature which didn’t fit into that concept.
Once user’s had adjusted to the navigation model and iTunes/iPod interaction, and as they had resources, they were able to add additional features user’s requested (though often as add-ons).
—
Based on the comments here, and the back and forth with Norman, I’d say the problem here is emphasis more than anything else.
When 37signals emphasis’ simplicity, folks roll their eyes for good reason. Stripped down software doesn’t really work. People need features.
37signals know this. They add features their users want. They don’t add everything, but they add a good number of things. Basecamp/Backpack are not the bare-bones things they started out being. They’ve grown.
But when your entire software design process is reduced to such simple sound bites, anyone in the know is going to roll their eyes at it. If you say something as one-dimensional as “features suck”, or imply that, folks are going to start pointing out the lunacy of the statement.
Now if you said something less absolute, such as, “Features complicate things,” well, no one is going to disagree.
I’m sure if you sat Jason and Norman down in a room, they’d agree more than they disagreed.
Vesa M
on 11 Mar 08This seems to be a subject that always carries argument and misunderstanding / biased opinions.
I think I have never attended a HCI-conference that has not carried an attitude in at least with one of the speakers that how designers are the enemies of the HCI researchers. And on the other hand most design oriented conferences have had at least some talk on how to fake your design to look like you have heeded the research but done exactly what you thought was cool.
The research – no matter how conducted – does not result as design, but needs someone to interpret the results. Designer WILL fail if she does despite the design she is crafting (that can happen easily when one designs stuff based on caricatures). Some backup is needed for design input and inspiration – the better info you have, the more inspired you can get and the more excited you can get.
Designing what you know and need is a valid approach. Thats how stuff was made in pre-industrial society, and it produced great innovations and pragmatic solutions. Unfortunately you can’t always do that nowadays. You can produce good solutions with personas and other common methods, as long as you get excited of what you are doing and don’t assume that the “user” is dumb and that you know better what they need and makes them happy than themselves.
Jack
on 11 Mar 08”- Yes apple makes products that are simple to use but it is not because of lack of features, what makes them great is that they can ADD great features and still keep their products just as easy to use. 37s doesn’t add features because they think it would make it harder to use.”
Agree. Apple did add great features to their product and still keep it simple while not so with 37singals software. I’m currently using free Basecamp and Backback and both application can really just be one.
Aurora
on 11 Mar 08I hope I’m not repeating something someone else has said. There were just too many comments to read. I have two comments of my own.
1. I wish you made software to track my personal finances (related to the simplicity portion of the post)
2. I’m a software designer myself, and I think designing for yourself is always the way to go. When I design software for other people (such as business software that handles some specific problem that I, personally, don’t have) I learn as much as I can about what its like to do my users’ jobs. I empathize with them and I put myself in their shoes. Then, I CAN trust my own instincts and I design for myself.
Adam
on 11 Mar 08It’s not a coincidence that this theme of arrogance keeps rearing it’s ugly head around you guys.
In the past I’ve read that you don’t track feature requests. The theory being that the most important requests, the ones that you should listen to, will come up often enough that you don’t need to track them, you’ll just know. Well, apply that to this theme. If enough people are getting the impression that you’re arrogant, you probably are.
As a company, I think it works to your advantage. Experts being arrogant to help market themselves as experts is hardly a new idea, but it’s very effective.
The only reason we’re having this discussion is because you’re not just a company, you’re people too and people don’t like to be called arrogant. So, you need to decide what’s more important to you, being a successful arrogant company, or being a group of humble people.
Judging by the company’s success, and your continued arrogance you’ve already made that choice. Well done.
TF
on 11 Mar 08Don Norman is mostly saying that you need a PR person—whoever wrote this blog should be the sole media contact.
That said, I think there is also a wiff of arrogance (or is it insecurity?) in the Norman piece…
I work for a company that does big, silo-ed, waterfall software development and we, naturally, have a UX group. In most cases, they generate overly-complicated, unilateral solutions because that’s what is expected of them—from management and supposedly, the client.
Small cross-discipline teams with clear vision, good leadership and a direct pipeline to their customers have absolutely no use for UX groups or Don Normans. Actually, they would be deeply hindered by them.
@Aurora: have you checked out mint.com for easy to use personal finance software?
Charles400
on 11 Mar 08Interesting comparisons to Apple. Joel Spolsky in various blog entries says of Apple (and I’m paraphrasing): “Nice products, not a nice company.” (example: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/10/05.html)
All this talk of arrogance @ 37signals is sounding similar. Nice software, arrogant people?
Me? I don’t think you’re arrogant, but I’m not a customer either.
Don Norman's Colon
on 11 Mar 08I’ve been using 37s stuff for a few years now, off and on. I’ve read Getting Real, I’ve followed the blog, I have a pretty good feel for the 37s model. I think that 37s does have a little arrogance to it, but I don’t think that is a bad thing.
Since Norman apparently doesn’t like “simple” I’ll use “less complicated”. I think people find the “less complicated” message refreshing. Most of the programs I use are overly complicated these days and its always refreshing to find one that isn’t. I consider myself a power user and if I get beat down by software complexity, I’m sure that average users do. Heck, they probably just give up after a while.
As for the arrogance issue, like I said, sure sometimes there may be a tone of it, but when I send email questions in and get real responses from Jason or whomever, its hard for me to consider them arrogant. I realize that may not always be the case and eventually 37s may be too large for that to happen, but I think you guys do enough things to keep you grounded in reality.
That being said, I have a list of features that I would like to see added and I want them now dammit. ;)
Jason
on 11 Mar 08I think it’s great 37Signals has had some success but comparing yourself to Apple? wow. You sir are no Steve Jobs.
JF
on 11 Mar 08I think it’s great 37Signals has had some success but comparing yourself to Apple? wow. You sir are no Steve Jobs.
1. We’re not comparing ourselves to Apple. We’re saying we share a similar point of view about saying no to 1,000 things so we can say yes to the one thing we think really matters. We also appear to have a similar initial product development strategy—build something we love and anticipate other like-minded people will love it too. Apple is a multi-billion dollar company, we’re a multi-million dollar company. Apple has nearly 20,000 employees, we have 10. Apple has nearly 30 profitable product lines, we have a handful of products. Apple has retail stores, we’re sold over the web. Apple has been in business for 25+ years, we’ve been in business for 9. Apple is a global brand, some people know about us. We’re not Apple.
2. No I am not Steve Jobs. Never said I was. You can agree with someone without suggesting you are that person. Steve Jobs is one of the greatest business minds of the past 100 years. I’m often inspired by his brilliance, his approach to things, his point of view, and his leadership, but I would never suggest I am Steve Jobs.
Spike
on 11 Mar 08JF and others at 37Signals,
I read the Wired article and your response. You did a nice job illuminating the disparity between the stance Norman seemed to be presenting and that of 37signals.
When it comes right down to it, I think that you and Norman would likely agree on the approach you take developing practical and usable systems and that your strategies are not in contrast to each other.
We study Norman in HCI graduate classes and I think your book (which I have also read) is worthy of being discussed at an academic level for its practical and pragmatic approach.
The bottom line is that your company is popular, your product user friendly, and your philosophy effective given the current market conditions and user experience.
Keep up the good work.
Rob Bishop
on 11 Mar 08Woah everyone!
37 Signals is a small company applying big visions to little products and it’s working out ok for them. Give it a break! They can be as arrogant as they want, it’s nice to feel like part of a club and even if their software is on the simple/basic side and values form over function it doesn’t mean it hasn’t got a place in the market.
Relax!
Long Time Listener - Repeat Caller
on 11 Mar 08Hmm… Longest set of replies I have seen in ages, and it’s about the implied arrogance of 37S. Colour me not surprised.
Seeing as how 37S is all about the details of design and subtle nuances it amazes me how they can also completely miss the point about where the arrogance lies. It’s in the presentation of remarks, not necessarily the idea behind the remarks.
Someone can be excited about their product or service and can sell it with fervour, or they can do so with arrogance. Kind of like how nuance in tone can change “I love 37 Signals” as a direct form of appreciation to “I love37 Signals” as a more sarcastic remark.
Fortunately, unfortunately, however you want to see it, it is very easy to perceive the remarks from 37S as more in the realm of arrogance than just “excitement” and the WIRED article not only did little to change this reader’s opinion on the matter but rather enforce it even more.
And the “the lady doth protest too much, methinks” seems to hit the nail a bit perfectly on the head.
Dustin Senos
on 11 Mar 08I’d rather read a blog with:
“This is how we say it should be done. It works for us. Thats proven”
than:
“I think this is a good way of doing it. Sure, there are a hundred ways, but we chose this one”
If that’s a sign of arrogance so be it.
37signals can tell me that jumping higher is the best way to reach the moon, doesn’t mean it’s true or arrogant, that’s what they believe.
They filter what comments they take from us, it’s our prerogative to do the same with what they post. Lets not make this personal.
beto
on 11 Mar 08This was an answer long overdue to come. I rather think that, deep down, those who criticize 37s for their apparent “arrogance” when it comes to design and clients would rather like to afford being that “arrogant” with their clients instead of having to bow at every whim and command from them just because they are paying and because they say so, as is too often the case. 37s software creation targets to attend common issues that most (if not all) of us share and care about, and that’s where the “design for ourselves” line fits in perfectly. That doesn’t mean it works for everyone… my needs or ways to do things are not the same as someone else’s. BUT… if my own solution appeals to a good chunk of people out there and it is big enough to allow myself a living, what is the problem with that? We’ve been too invested in the business idea of trying to please everyone all the time. And we know what has come out of it – bland, ubercomplex and generally unappealing stuff. Try to please everyone and you’ll end up pleasing no one.
thrax
on 11 Mar 08I’m changing my job title to “Curator of Feature Requests.”
Not Neil Peart
on 11 Mar 08Looks like a lot of “unrest in the forest” on this particular topic. I personally don’t find JF or DHH to be arrogant in the least. JF already explained that he can’t “qualify” all of his remarks ad infinitum. Or add smileys for everything uttered tongue in cheek. Leave him alone you envious naysayers. Don’t we love 37S because they are opinionated? Isn’t that the whole pretext on which they created the anti-ms-project when they created Basecamp? Mr. Peart said it best…
There is unrest in the forest, There is trouble with the trees, For the maples want more sunlight And the oaks ignore their pleas. The trouble with the maples, (And they're quite convinced they're right) They say the oaks are just too lofty And they grab up all the light. But the oaks can't help their feelings If they like the way they're made. And they wonder why the maples Can't be happy in their shade.All naysayers… get thee back to work – you have catching up to do!
Weixi Yen
on 11 Mar 08well said. he took a totally literal meaning of “designing for yourself” as only designing for yourself and nothing else.
carlivar
on 11 Mar 08Arrogance is a good thing. What is 37signals supposed to do, adopt an attitude like “aww shucks, we just got a few little apps here. Gee whiz we didn’t think anyone would like them.” That’s ridiculous! All successful businesses are arrogant! Arrogance and leadership often overlap.
I admire Google and Apple not because they are arrogant or not but because they are arrogant in the same way I am. By the same token I dislike Microsoft because they are arrogant in ways I disagree with.
This reminds me of Ayn Rand’s “greed is good” mantra. It’s often misunderstood, and it seems odd mentioning Ayn Rand with the Obama love usually professed here, but 37signals is really no different from Howard Roark.
Steve
on 11 Mar 08But, you don’t really disagree with Donald Norman. Quit whining.
martin
on 11 Mar 08I’m a web developer and ex-chef. I LOVE you comparison with food !!! I never met a chef that first asks the client what the meal should taste like ! That’s the chefs job!
Bala Paranj
on 12 Mar 08Obey principle of Maximum Expected Utility
“To judge what one must do to obtain a good or avoid an evil, it is necessary to consider not only the good and the evil in itself, but also the probability that it happens or does not happen; and to view geometrically the proportion that all these things have together.”
A Arnauld, The Art of Thinking 1662
Harley Manning
on 12 Mar 08“Designing for ourselves first yields better initial results…” I sure wish I had $1 for every time I heard a programmer say something similar. Or the highest paid executive in the room. Except from the highest paid executive I’d want at least $10. Seriously, why is the idea that designing a product to appeal to the person who is supposed to use it controversial?
matt diamanti
on 12 Mar 08My response is on my blog. I agree with Don. Time to show some maturity guys. There is a world out there other than your own, and contrary to your beliefs, there is value in it. Open up your minds, you may learn something. You’ve got too much talent to waste on such limited views.
http://www.designtraininginstitute.com/blog/
JF
on 12 Mar 08Time to show some maturity guys. There is a world out there other than your own, and contrary to your beliefs, there is value in it. Open up your minds, you may learn something. You’ve got too much talent to waste on such limited views.
From my comment posted above:
As we said in the post, and have said on many occasions before, we don’t think our way is the only way. It’s one way. We’re excited about our way. We recognize there are many ways to do things. There are lots of paths to success. We wish everyone success however they achieve it. We do what we can to help other people be successful.
Correlating our passion for our opinions with disdain for other people’s opinions and is an incorrect association. We’re inspired by a lot of people that look at the world entirely differently than we do.
Norman is the only one here suggesting one way (our way) is wrong and “bound to fail.” We’re not suggesting the way he does things is wrong, it’s just different than how we do things.
Nikhil Karwall
on 12 Mar 08I don’t even understand where is this word ‘arrogance’ coming from? These guys are designers and they are supposed to make decisions and choices, to pick something and discard something else; and they do that the way they they think is right and to the best of their ability. It is the designer’s right and responsibility. And as long as the product is running successfully, noone can point a finger towards it. To call it arrogance is stupidity in itself.
Arik Jones
on 12 Mar 0837s is an arrogant company. It’s practices are rather unorthodox and incoherent of any software development standard I know of and they brag about it. But hey, they makes boat loads of money doing it. However so do companies who follow existing industry standards.
I think everyone is just mad cause 37s is a company that banks their success off their own rules and standards. Because their standards and philosophies don’t work for everyone else who wants to be successful, outrage occurs.
Look at Apple for example. Would we even have products like the iPhone or Macbook Air if all they did was follow someone else’s rules? Certainly not. 37s has dedicated and loyal customers, why should it matter how you get them?
Adam Metz
on 12 Mar 08There’s a difference between being right 99% of the time and being arrogant.
Larry Irons
on 13 Mar 08Don Norman has to come up with something to set himself apart as an expert. He has done it now for over two decades and much of what he says is meant to overstate the reality. Popular authors do that and then tell you they were misunderstood. However, that said, I’d recommend you don’t relegate yourself to a feature curator, but rather aspire to digital architect.
Bruce Temkin
on 13 Mar 08Let me start by clearly stating my position: 37signals is right. Why do I say that? The purpose of strategy is not to be eloquent or pure, but to succeed. By that overriding benchmark, 37signals’ position wins the debate—hands down.
From my perspective, there’s nothing better than having product architects with a strong intuition about the needs of the target audience. To some degree, that’s what I think Steve Jobs brings to Apple. I’d rather have that situation than an environment where we need to use user-centric principles to infuse insights into an organization that does not know anything about its users.
Having said all of this, I don’t think that 37signals’ approach is easy to replicate or scale. There aren’t many architects/designers with enough intuition about users to make this work. And, as you expand your product and customer base expands, it gets increasingly difficult to rely on this approach for all products and all markets and all decisions. That’s why most firms would benefit from adopting Don Norman’s user-centric approaches. Even 37signals should augment their intuition with Norman’s approaches if it decides to scale the business.
One final thought on the other thread of disagreement: simplicity. In this world where everything is getting overly complex, simplicity can be a fantastic strategy. In my research, I’ve actually defined “ultrasimplicity” as one of the five disruptive customer experience strategies.
My blog: Customer Experience Matters
Andy Polaine
on 13 Mar 08Well, I studied Norman’s writing a lot for my PhD and I also interviewed Jason a few years ago. Strangely enough, I actually think you guys are talking about similar ideas but from completely different ends of the spectrum and it shows up the generation gap. Norman is from an product/HCI background and you guys work in a digital/online environment. There is no final product in the same way as, say, a teapot. It’s very different.
I started writing this comment, it got way too long, so I decided to post about it on my blog instead. Sorry if it sounds like a plug, but it saves me copying and pasting it all here.
http://www.polaine.com/playpen/2008/03/13/37signals-versus-don-norman/.
KB
on 16 Mar 08Donald Norman writes: “But I’ve tried their products and although they have admirable qualities, they have never quite met my needs.”
This comment is unsubstantial, cheap and arrogant. Exactly what are those needs? Is Donald Norman, a Nielsen Norman Group principal, unable to state his requirements and needs? Has he degenerated into a state where feelings and empathy count more than observation, fact and purpose when designing software?
“But I would prefer someone who designed software for other people.”, Norman states. This comment leaves me highly confused. What is most important, the features and usefulness offered by a product, or Norman’s beliefs about the developer’s personal motivation for creating it? Norman should ask his colleague Jakob Nielsen. It’s not “the people”, Norman. It’s the user’s problems and tasks. You should know if any.
Norman want to control the rest of us by stating the opinion of “the people”, and in the process he indirectly claims to be altruistic and unselfish. A liberal besserwisser.
Why is Donald Norman so arrogant?
A Fan
on 17 Mar 08I never thought of 37S as arrogant, but now after reading this extensive post, it seems a bit arrogant that there was such a follow up to one criticism. There’s a lot of criticism of great companies out there, but most of them don’t feel the need to defend themselves this way.
I think it would have been far more admirable to let it slide and not allow it to phase you, rather than post this rebuttal in your defense.
Keith
on 17 Mar 08I don’t think 37signals has ever said anything like “Our products do X Y & Z and that’s why they are the best.”
I have always understood the message to be, “Our products do X Y & Z and that serves a certain group of people we’re targeting.”
I don’t think that’s arrogance. It’s market differentiation and it’s something that sets 37 signals apart in that their business plans remain focused on the things they do best.
Adding MORE for the sake of MORE is pretty foolish. I always liken it to retailers who start out doing one specific thing very well and then decide they can do everything well. A great example is Bath & Body Works. Their original line was pretty small. This pleased my wife because the choices were specific for her and pleased me because it meant I only had to sit on the bench outside the store for like 15 minutes tops.
They went through a phase where they started offering all kind of accessories and dozens of variations of product lines and my wife just quit shopping there and goes to L’Occitane because they still focus on the products they do best.
There is always going to be a market for people who want something specific. When companies get out of control they start selling “Future Floor Wax: It’s a floor wax AND a dessert topping!”
This discussion is closed.