The stereotypical startup dream hire is a 20-something with as little life as possible outside of computers. The one that’ll be happy working 14-hour crunch days for weeks on end sprinting for an ever-shifting target that keeps being 90% done for 90% of the time. The one you can make sleep under the table or please with a foosball table in the center of the room. The one where the company paying for dinner pizza is “awesome”.
I should know. I used to be that gullible and even take an odd pride in being up to the job. But it didn’t take long to catch on to the idea that packing a room full of these people was merely a crutch for shoddy management, lousy execution, and myths like “this is the only way we can compete against the big guys”. And you certainly need the latter if you’re trying to give turds wings, but how about just not trying to make crap fly in the first place?
That’s why I like working with the family man or woman. They come in as a cold bath of reality. When people have other obligations outside of work that they actually care more about than your probably-not-so-world-changing idea, the crutches are not available as an easy way out, and you’ll have to walk by the power of your good ideas and execution or you’ll fall fast and early. That’s a good thing!
From the experience I’ve had working with family people, I’ve found an amazing ability to get stuff done when the objectives are reasonably clear, the work appears to have meaning, and if it can be done within the scope of what should constitute a work week. When there are real constraints on your time, like you have to pickup the kids or make them dinner or put them to bed, it appears to bring a serenity of focus to the specific hours dedicated to work.
This is what companies need, startups or not. They need constraints and especially constraints on how often you can play the hero card to Get This Very Important Project Done. Most projects are just not that important and most things just shouldn’t be done anyway, despite how good of an idea you feel it is in the heat of the moment.
Update: Removed potential confusion around labor discrimination.
unmarried
on 24 Apr 08I’m single and you can kiss my ….
Charlton
on 24 Apr 08I saw the people I went to school with - people who graduated with computer science degrees at the right time to hit the start of the dot-com craze - chasing stock options and thinking that a foosball table in the break room was adequate compensation for unremitting 80-hour weeks. One of them made bank by working for the right startups; a dozen more are burned out or no longer working with computers. I doubt any of them would consider that foosball table adequate compensation now.
(We were all foolish 20somethings; I went to graduate school instead.)
Mike
on 24 Apr 08Wow, that’s actually offensive.
And illegal in BC, Canada and I hope other enlightened jurisdictions.
Charles
on 24 Apr 08What about hiring hotties that can win Hawaiian Tropic wet t-shirt contests that just happens to have graduated with honors from Carnegie Mellon, hmm?
Javier[EmaStudios]
on 24 Apr 08I agree with this post, family people is also more direct when comes to certain matters; they don’t try to hide things, they just say what it’s on their minds.
There is also a lot of fun and advantages about working with single people; they can give you more time if a project needs to while the daddy or mommy have to go home to feed the kids. I think they both compensate each other and that’s the good about it right?
Having family people, and single people over it’s just not the end of it; you need to be flexible for both regarding working hours and compensation for their hard work. Love this post btw, opens a good discussion!
Javier Cabrera
Right On
on 24 Apr 08I don’t think Davis was suggesting that one make this a hard and fast practice; he was suggesting that the conventional wisdom is messed up.
This will not be a popular sentiment, but I agree. And for those folks getting all haughty or outraged about it, the exact opposite has been the de facto hiring method for many years, so it’s refreshing to see someone who things differently.
Peter Cooper
on 24 Apr 08I’ve read a piece with almost the same message and with the research findings in a regular publication sometime in the last couple of months. It confirmed that people with families can have higher levels of productivity at work than singles, which I found quite interesting.
I’m surprised no-one noted, so far, that DHH isn’t a family man as yet ;-) (or perhaps he is and there’s a hidden message behind this post – congrats!)
Bryan Helmkamp
on 24 Apr 08Just FYI – Hiring preferences based on age and family status is illegal in most situations in the US.
DHH
on 24 Apr 08Mike, this is arguing against discrimination of family people (by only hiring 20-somethings). Obviously, just hiring someone because they have a family is not going to be a wise decision (and as you point out may well be illegal in your jurisdiction).
Out of all the hires at 37signals, only two people have kids.
Joshua Go
on 24 Apr 08Yeah, I’m surprised at all the stuff Jamis Buck manages to crank out. That guy is my hero.
Nicholas Kreidberg
on 24 Apr 08Great article and definitely a refreshing view point. I am a young single parent (26) and I still work 45hrs a week as a programmer/dba in addition to putting in 5-10hrs/week on side projects.
My point in saying all of that is to stress the fact that having a family does not make you unable to be productive. Can I get work done while trying to entertain my son and be dad? No, which is why when I am Dad, I am Dad 110%. When I am working I am working 110%, period. Trying to mesh the two worlds I find to be completely counter-productive.
- Nicholas
Kirby
on 24 Apr 08“And illegal in BC, Canada and I hope other enlightened jurisdictions.”
Knucklehead, it’s illegal in BC to advertise a preference. Go back and re-read the legislation again.
Good post David.
DHH
on 24 Apr 08Updated the post to make the position more clear and remove any confusion as to whether you should discriminate when hiring.
nathan
on 24 Apr 08Good post, I agree. One thing you might also have mentioned is the sheer reliability factor. 20-something singles don’t have much to keep them at your company. “Family people” as you call them have, well, a family to think of and in my experience are far less prone to quitting over silly problems or dangling carrots. They also tend to have a greater sense of purpose (again, in my experience) that stems from having higher priorities than “which bars are we going to the next three nights.”
On the other hand, don’t forget that there’s a difference between good family people and people that just happen to have kids. And, it’s possible to find the occasional mature and focused 20-something single, too.
DHH
on 24 Apr 08Peter, I always try to hire people who are smarter, better, more productive, and more creative than me. There’s no doubt that Jamis is most of those things :)
Nathan, no doubt. Just having kids is certainly no evidence of superiority, but lots of web companies seem to have this group underrepresented unfairly.
zeldman
on 24 Apr 08Yes.
unmarried2
on 24 Apr 08likewise …i think u are losing touch.
Ed Knittel
on 24 Apr 08David, I find it interesting that this message was posted by you. I had to do a double take when I started reading it because I was expecting it to have been penned by Jason.
I don’t think anyone has considered 37signals a startup in many years.
Ask people (consider this me asking people) how old a company can be before they have to ditch referring to themselves as a startup. I’d say no more than 2 years.
It hasn’t but very recently that the 4 day work week has been implemented so there were many years that at least 5 days was required. I’m sure there was a time at the very beginning when Jason was burning the midnight oil and free pizza was a good thing.
Anyone that’s been excited about working at a true start-up (just a couple of months old) knows what they are getting into. Yes, it means a lot of hours but it’s also a fast environment with little interference from meetings and bureaucracy. For a lot of young people that’s a good thing especially if they’re fresh out of college and they’re used to the long nights and bad diet.
37signals is a mature company with years of combined experience. As the company gets older and more focused on what works for them having an eager-beaver 20-something isn’t as important as a seasoned veteran who maybe has a wife and kid at home.
Dustin
on 24 Apr 08David, I just impregnated my wife – hire me!
JL
on 24 Apr 08While I agree with the concept that people with outside interests are beneficial for the reasons listed, i think that the article is written in such a way that it creates this false dichotomy between A[20-something with as little life as possible] and B[family man or woman who have other obligations outside of work].
I get that it wasn’t the intent to create this sense of family workers are right and all else is A, but the structure encourages that conclusion.
I think a better summary is to hire people with life goals unrelated to your business, who are passionate about their work, but understand that they have more important things in life than shipping widget A before arbitrary deadline that comes too soon.
JL
on 24 Apr 08And after I typed that the edit clarifies _
DHH
on 24 Apr 08Ed, funny thing is that we used to work EVEN LESS. Basecamp was built on 10 hours/week of programming resources. We ran Basecamp for the entire first year as a project alongside other client projects.
But I do agree that we’re not a startup anymore, though.
JL, oh totally. As I mentioned, we still have way more people at 37signals who don’t have a family than people who do. I just want to push back against what seems to be the notion that hiring someone without ties who’s interested in working death march hours is a good business decision (for any company, startup or not).
Ed Knittel
on 24 Apr 08As a CMU alumnus (CFA ‘99) I’m calling “shenanigans” on that statement. Pics or it didn’t happen.
MC
on 24 Apr 08Don’t Repeat Yourself!
some guy
on 24 Apr 08more generally, hiring people with more life experience and perspective is always a good thing.
when you’re going to think about things other than pure technology, you need perspective, and that’s what someone who lives in front of a computer and has no life or interests outside of that lacks.
Ben
on 24 Apr 08I really don’t understand what you’re talking about, if you aren’t necessarily talking about people who are married and have kids (you mentioned that only two at 37signals have kids). Not too many people want to be single, and those who find someone whom they like naturally want to spend time with them.
To me it sounds like you’re really saying is “hire successful people”. I think that’s a good idea for the employer, but for the not-yet-successful people it sucks. We have to find employers who aren’t as savvy as 37signals. Sometimes the companies that hire someone who’s not yet successful wind up with someone who has a lot of potential and it pays off in the end, but this doesn’t happen most of the time.
Splashman
on 24 Apr 08David, thanks for this post. I’ve experienced anti-family-man discrimination myself, by young companies that pride themselves on the fact that most everyone they hire is young (cheap), single (less ‘distractions’), and devoted only to the company. The drawbacks are obvious, to those with some experience, at least.
John
on 24 Apr 08I am married with 4 kids. I totally agree with the reliablity factor, in that if I was single I would have walked away from my current job dozens of times. I didn’t because feeding 5 people besides me takes quite a bit of scratch.
I have noticed discrimination in the opposite direction from some start-ups. They find out I have kids and all of a sudden the interview goes from nailed it to see ya.
Jeff
on 24 Apr 08Mike,
There’s an obvious unspoken bias against hiring “family people” in the software industry. This article is a long overdue challenge to the conventional wisdom.
Clark
on 24 Apr 08I remember a job ad for an art director in Bangkok which specifically stated that only young, single, and unattached people may apply because they were essentially going to consistently make you work until the wee hours of the night.
The ‘best’ people I have worked with have always been those who have had interesting lives outside of the office.
Penguin Pete
on 24 Apr 08You’re seeing two effects: (a) people with families have more motivation to bring home that paycheck when the folks at home are counting on them. A single 20-something can just move back in with mom until they find more work. (b) older, more experienced people have their priorities straighter. in my salad days, I’d pull all-nighters, too. Then I learned how to make 2 lines of code work where I used to use 50.
Eric
on 24 Apr 08David, I can understand where you’re coming from, and I think you and many of the commenters make good points (both for and against).
I think part of the issue is where your priorities lie. If you’re founding a startup (or any small business), I would imagine you’re going to be ~90% dedicated to making your business succeed. You’re going to make trade offs because of that.
More importantly, you have to decide to what degree you want to succeed. Do you want to just be able to pay the bills, do you want to change the world with your idea, or somewhere in between? 37signals has made a choice. You want a balance between life and work, and you look for that in your employees. And you’ve been successful, but you’ve also limited the growth of the company. Which is fine that’s what you guys want.
However, if I’m dedicating 80-90% of my energy in life trying to build my company, do I want to hire a guy like John above who is only at his job because he needs to feed his kids? No way, I want the person who believes in my idea/company and is also willing to make sacrifices, if to a lesser degree, to help it succeed.
David, you were also a little disingenuous when you said that you worked less, since Basecamp was built on 10 hours a week. Those 10 hours were on top of the other client work you were doing at the time, so you and Jason made a decision to work an extra 10 hours/week instead of doing other things. Would you have made that same decision if you had kids?
My point is, you have to dedicate a significant amount of time to whatever it is you want to be great at. That includes being a great father/mother. that means making trade-offs and sacrifices. you guys have done that, and continue to do that, probably to a lesser extent.
Balance is great. But it won’t make you great.
Nigel Lewis
on 24 Apr 08This reminds me of Jerry Mcguire, “I will not rest until I have you holding a Coke, wearing your own shoe, playing a Sega game featuring you, while singing your own song in a new commercial, starring you, broadcast during the Superbowl, in a game that you are winning, and I will not sleep until that happens. I’ll give you fifteen minutes to call me back”
Jeff Mackey
on 24 Apr 08Prioritize. Work smarter, not harder.
Good post.
whatthe
on 25 Apr 08Just so I understand, DHH, was basecamp built by people who had time for family? I find that really hard to believe. Surely you must have had to spend late nights getting it to work so well?
DHH
on 25 Apr 08whatthe, Basecamp was built on 10 hours/week (not day) of programming time and by designers who were doing other client projects at the same time. It was run for the first year as a partial business besides the design consultancy.
So no, Basecamp didn’t come from a death march tour of 14-hour days.
john
on 25 Apr 08@Eric
I totally agree with you, but just cause I need to feed my kids doesn’t mean I am not capable of being passionate about a company.
I work for an evil, vial company who would outsource its customers if it would raise their stock a quarter of a point. They turned off the hot water to save money, and cut back janitorial to 2 times a week. In an office building of 1500, thats a lot of trash piling up day after day. Office politics are so bad that someone snapped the other day and I got to listen to a cuss fest from accross the room.
If my company cared for me, and created products I truely believed in, then I would be passionate and wouldn’t want to leave. I would go the extra mile and be excited about the company. I would put in everything I could offer because I would see a payoff, not a layoff.
Don’t confuse my lack of passion at my job and the need to feed a family with being lazy and unwilling to work… I work my @ss off, but the first job that comes close to matching my current pay and benefits, I will jump ship.
Splashman
on 25 Apr 08Eric, there are those (including me) who would argue that greatness cannot be achieved without balance; that a lack of balance will result in impressive investments, but less impressive results and unimpressive human beings.
You are, of course, free to define “greatness” for yourself, and free to attempt to hire those who agree with your definition.
Mike
on 25 Apr 08@Jeff I agree that some startups have that “unspoken bias”. But I have never worked at a company that had this. Also, I haven’t heard of any companies that have specifically verbalized that bias. That’s what I find offensive.
I actually agree with hiring people who have a balanced life and a balanced approach to life. However, I disagree with equating that blindly with “family”. Not that it precludes it either, it’s just not equivalent.
So for the record, I would find it equally wrong if somebody had a post of “Hire single people”.
Nivi
on 25 Apr 08I like the idea of “serenity of focus”. Pair programming also seems to yield a “serenity of focus”.
Tom Altman
on 25 Apr 08I read it as you must hire people who need to work. I know that when I was a 20-something, I was much more apt to risky moves. I had an attitude and I didn’t care who heard it.
But now that I know I have to provide food and shelter for 5 – it makes a bit of a difference.
In my mind – it’s more like that. You want to hire people who have a reason to come to work, but that is only after you evaluate who can DO the job.
Benjamin Hirsch
on 25 Apr 08Couldn’t agree more, David… and thanks for this.
It’s all about having perspective and your kids will give you plenty of that! Nothing will ever again be more important to you than the welfare and happiness of your children.
But that doesn’t mean that you will suddenly care any less about the other things in life, including work. In fact, it is quite the opposite. You care more. and not just because your work has more underlying purpose or that you have mouths to feed. It is because you learn to truly focus on what is important and ignore the everyday bulls*@t.
Also, taking a break from work to spend time with your kids, as tiring and challenging as it can be at times, brings you back to work refreshed and fulfilled.
Christopher M Mancini
on 25 Apr 08This article may explain why every interview i go on lately i have made it to the second round, or been offered a job in just a few hours after the first or second round. I am married with a 4 year old, a 11 month old and a baby on the way. But I am still a 20 something with a lot of energy and a thirst for improving myself. It is an interesting thought.
Chris http://www.propertystampede.com
Mike Church
on 25 Apr 08Time spent at work is not the same thing as productivity. I know a lot of telecommuters who work one or two hours per day and keep their jobs. Because they work when and how they want to, in an environment they choose, they focus when they are working, and they’re able to get 5-10 times as much done per hour as the average corporate employee. So I can understand the author’s viewpoint: the stereotypical college grad who camps out at the office 15 hours per day is more likely to goof off during some of his hours, and to encourage others to goof off; the family person wants to put in a solidly productive day, with minimal interruption, and go home.
As I always understood it, though, the appeal of the fresh college grad doesn’t have that much to do with the ability to work long hours. Rather, it’s that he hasn’t yet been damaged by the dysfunctional work environments that characterize most corporations, and so learned laziness and helplessness haven’t set in. College students generally have healthier attitudes toward work than jaded long-term corporate employees, because they’re used to an environment where hard work is more often recognized than not, evaluations are consistent and well-defined, and passing another’s work off as one’s own leads to expulsion rather than promotion.
However, people should be hired not based on their age but on their enthusiasm for doing great work, and enthusiastic people come from all age groups. If age is a factor in hiring at all, it should be considered for the purpose of supporting diversity, since there are good people with useful skills and life experiences in all age groups, and a wide age spectrum is generally a sign of a health company.
Michael Easter
on 25 Apr 08I agree that it is preferable to have people who have talent, extra-curricular passions, enough self-esteem to handle criticism, and yet enough backbone to stand up for their own needs.
Unfortunately, the post generalizes “family people” as having these traits, and implies that family obligations are “real constraints”.
Imagine a single person who is training for an Ironman. Or who is learning to play violin, and practices every night. Or is writing a book. Tell them that they don’t have real constraints. I dare you.
I think it is more accurate to associate the traits with mature, well-rounded people. I’ve seen these traits in family people and singles alike.
Jeff
on 25 Apr 08definitely agree on the part of where companies need constraints. it helps hone in on what really is important and ignores the fluff.
Frank Boës
on 25 Apr 08You don’t have to have a family to get your priorities straight. It just takes an interesting private life. :)
I started working overtime and nearly ended as a burning wreckage. After some nearly-burnouts I changed my focus – and my company was more happy afterwards, because I was more productive in less time.
In my time as entrepreneur I finally got to the conclusion, that your freetime is actually a part of your worktime – because you have to recharge your batteries to stay productive. So if you go for these 80h-weeks, you are actually wasting productive potential. It’s a myth that more worktime means more productivity. You just have to find your own sweet-spot. :)
Duncan
on 25 Apr 08Another post from 37signals that makes me want to work for you (although I don’t live in the States….unfortunately). You get it, it’s so refreshing.
unmarried
on 25 Apr 08Won’t be long before you move the whole operation from May Street to Deerfield! It’s a family friendly community I hear. And safe.
Lars Smit
on 25 Apr 08Well, all I can say is since I became a dad is that I organise and prioritize my work better just to work smarter to get more things done.
Paul Montwill
on 25 Apr 08I can’t believe somebody is offended or reminds about hiring preferences bla bla bla.
David, it is a great post because you remind us about “facts”. Family people are also usually more mature and can manage their time properly as they have more responsibilities.
@Eric: You can be a family man and during your 9-5 be enthusiastic and give 100% of your potential to the company.
J.J. Merrick
on 25 Apr 08Very nice! For once I was like What?! when I read one of your posts.
I am 29 with a wife and 3 kids and do web development and work at home. I started out as a 20 year old that would work for hours on end and I have been able to refine my process.
Really what this boils down to is 2 things.
1. Family people tend to be older and more mature. Kids do something to you and your maturity level skyrockets (usually). I always say that a guy is never ready to have kids and will never be ready until he HAS kids.
2. This is exactly what the 4 hour work week is talking about. The idea of if you have something ELSE you HAVE to get done then you will work more diligently and more focused to get it done.
Anthony Watts
on 25 Apr 08Excellent post, thank you.
Buford Twain
on 25 Apr 08David,
Interesting post. I think almost the same point could be made for older people in general. The older you get, the more you realize that life isn’t all about work. You don’t necessarily need to have kids to figure that out, though it helps.
Joe Pantuso
on 25 Apr 08Amen brother.
Beau
on 25 Apr 08I think something about people with families is that they often understand that it is not about them, it is about the organization as a hole.
Their is very little difference between a successful family and a successful company/organization.
Having a family often makes this more clear, but of course their are many without families who understand this as well.
Icelander
on 25 Apr 08My wife and I had our first child six months ago, and I can definitely see the changes you’re talking about. Before, I dreaded coming into work. I had projects at home that were more fun. I had game consoles and could go out whenever I wanted.
Now that I have a kid, my job is the only place I get to do the thing I love doing (programming), so I enjoy being here and I am more focused. Mostly because I know that when I go home I’m going to be cleaning and changing diapers and singing along with Elmo instead of coding.
Oh please
on 25 Apr 08Reading these comments sounds like this is a support group for the unproductive family worker. If you’re commenting on this blog while you’re at work, you’re being momentarily unproductive. If you’re trying to postulate ways of justifying how your failure to deliver even a quarter of the lines of code of super-star “single” programmer from the company’s last hire, you’re wasting your time.
There can be bad single AND family programmers, and it doesn’t have to do with the condition or state of being married.
The only difference we are assuming here is that you’re married and have a family, they don’t. If you want to gloat, just do it on a subject that you actually have some worth and value in, and don’t try to denigrate the performance of that single programmer who busts his butt to get work done when you have to stay at home with a sick child. Believe me, more often than not, that single programmer doesn’t blame you if you’re momentarily occupied with family matters and appreciates the advice and solace you provide to the job.
Don’t use pseudo-science to justify stereotyping programmers based on whether or not they have a family. It really means nothing either way. What you’re looking for is performance.
Hank
on 25 Apr 08I’ve done the long hours too. You stop doing that when you realize exactly how lousy the pay is.
Unless it’s your company or you’re building something truly insanely great the job is just a means to get the money to pay the bills. The lucky few escape that fate, for most people [including the gaggle of civil engineers and the Ph.Ds outside my door here] it’s just a job.
I’ve got to see the first job that is more of a feast of life than having a BBQ with some good friends or quality beer in the right crowd. The job is not without its importance but to spend 80 hours there… how many people have actually benefited from that much time at work?
Trevor Lee
on 25 Apr 08I cannot second you enough. This is exactly the sort of thing I’ve faced in the past, and you’ve hit the nail directly on the head.
John H
on 25 Apr 08@Eric You have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m 31, w/ two kids, an ex-wife, a gf, working at a startup where we’ll be coming in on Sunday. I could probably outwork you and most of your peers, no problem.
Dennis Forbes
on 25 Apr 08Excellent post, DHH.
I really find it remarkable that anyone could take offense at this (especially given that the opposite is an openly stated norm in the industry). While he uses a family as an example, the premise carries over to any, well, life outside of work—charity work, committees that you belong to, user groups, hobbies, book clubs, whatever.
And I will absolutely agree with DHH’s observation, little is spent on doing this efficiently or smart. If you think that your boss is going to expect herculean efforts, there’s little initiative to do things right, or to work hard—you’re going to be working long regardless.
James James
on 25 Apr 08One thing I’ve noticed having kids—you really do have much less time for everything (at least if you want to spend quality time with your kids). This means you become much more efficient – you have to.
And (people without kids are going hate this bit) having kids also makes you more responsible, which affects how you approach your work.
Andreas
on 25 Apr 08I agree and this is quite true for anyone who has priorities on life rather than work. If push comes to shove those types would rather sacrifice a career than familym hobby, etc. I indeed agree those people are nicer to work with than the nerds or workaholics in shiny suits. However, most companies seek those. For example, here in Germany it’s especially hard. Heavy discrimiation of older people and family people (40+ forget getting hired, almost impossible. Kids? Only 40hrs per week?? get out of here) . For example it’s quite common to fire women once they are having kids. Men having a live are stigmatized, especially in the IT/Software sector. And all are whining they don’t find qualified personal. Sometimes I think most guys in the industry need to do a reality check.
Steve
on 25 Apr 08David, I just impregnated Dustin’s wife – hire me!
MG
on 25 Apr 08Reckon this is why the Google hiring algorithm favors dog owners? We folk have to leave the office every 10 hours.
Drew
on 25 Apr 08Wow, folks sure do like to get riled up. This article isn’t saying “the only grounded, sane, productive people are those with families”. The post title isn’t “only hire family people”, it’s a statement on why David has found ‘family people’ to be enjoyable to work with. A statement about one case does not imply all other cases are invalid. Why are we so afraid of statements of opinion? Not every declaration must be in the form of “He/She/One enjoys doing activity x (but not at the exclusion of activity y, which is equally valid and worthwhile—which is not to imply a universal measure of validiity… merely a statement of the author’s opinion, an opinion which in no way indicates a rejection of other opinions which may or may not be held by others…) blah blah blah”.
Sometimes I jump in annoyance at 37s posts. Sometimes I jump in excitement. Either way, I appreciate that they speak their opinions without apologizing for them or endlessly qualifying them. I worry for a culture that finds any strong opinion to somehow be a violation of all other opinions on the subject.
In this case, my experience matches David’s. Folks who have interests outside the workplace seem to often be more efficient in their use of work time because
a) they are driven to earn the money that lets them do what they love, or care for those they love
b) they’re determined to get things done on time so they don’t have to use “personal” time for “work” activities,
c) they continue to grow and develop when they are not at work, meaning they have a steady supply of new perspectives, experiences, and motivations from the outside which they can then bring as tools to whatever they are working on.
Yes, of course they can also be distracted by non-work issues, need to miss work because of other obligations, etc etc. But I find that if the company makes it clear that it’s ok to have a life outside, and that it is understood that it will occasionally conflict with “company time”, those folks will tend to be much more loyal and focused when they return to work.
I just don’t understand the seemingly common corporate attitude that the things which make us human are nothing but liabilities to the bottom line. It’s a load of crap.
There, that’s my definite statement in response.
amirite
on 25 Apr 08Wow, really? I’m the exact opposite. I also fell for the glorified foosball room when I took my first job at a startup, I was 15, maybe thats why. Wait, no, because I still work for a small company (startup) in the same area, and that original company I worked for is now a client of the organization I’m at now, and we’ve since ditched the foosball table; we’re into Wii’s now. The truth is, your insight is isolated to where you work, so by saying that, I don’t think a design company full of family folks would last long…get my drift?
Vicky H
on 25 Apr 08I think I took this article a little different than many of you, although I love reading all your opinions and there have been many great points made.
My take, is that this is just one more example of working within constraints, which is what 37 Signals has always been about.
I think if you are a family person, that you do have constraints on your time. You have constraints and priorities that are important, not that being married is better than single.
The other point, not really made in David’s post, but made in some comments is that many startups are seeking those who are able to work for a piece of the pie, if there ever becomes an editable pie.
Naturally, those with a family have less options (ie..moving back in with parents) than single people have.
Marcos Gonzalez
on 25 Apr 08I sense a Jason Calacanis blog post coming, saying that he only hires 20 somethings cause family and non working hours are overrated.
Remember that he´s got Mahalo “a sweatshop powered search engine”
sharkfish
on 25 Apr 08Family is the perfect excuse for these people to unload all their extra work on the single people. Family people get to leave at a moment’s notice for “babysitter issues”, sick kids, etc.
As long as you work somewhere that the employer allows everyone to take advantage, that’s cool. If not, you are always dealing with the inequities of the differences between being single and not being single plus kids.
Jeremy Toeman
on 25 Apr 08Wonderful post. As a relatively new father and also founder of a company with 7 employees, I hope my management style and life-work balance sets a good tone for my office. There’s no debate that family comes first, and on the 2 occasions where minor “emergencies” have come up from the personal side, my whole team has rallied to help. Now that’s what I call family.
Best, Jeremy
ps – CMU ‘96 – no hawaiian tropic ladies around then.
ex employee of turd with wings
on 25 Apr 08I worked at one of those “lets stick it to the big guys” post-college incubators for young talent .. it was great for a while, I made decent money and was happy until I took a step back and realized that I was tired working for a loveable misfit of a company and being obligated to completely blur the line between work and life outside of work to be part of the team.
There was no clear roadmap for the future at this company, everyone was working a frantic million hours a week, but from a business perspective they were treading water and losing ground to their competition every day – but they didn’t care because they were sticking it to the man…
I cared. I grew up. I made a grown up decision and moved on.
I am happier now even without the binge drinking and fooseball.
I think companies like that are great but most people grow out of that phase when real responsibility and things that are more important than work come into play. Unless its your company, other things should be more important at some point.
The folks that pledge allegiance to the “lifestyle” and “the cause” only end up painting them self into a corner and being unhappier with less options later.
Just my opinion..
This article struck a big nerve with me. ;-)
Pete
on 25 Apr 08“Unless it’s your company or you’re building something truly insanely great the job is just a means to get the money to pay the bills.”
Agreed, especially the part about it being your company ie. being self-employed. I believe it was Pud at www.uckedcompany that said, as an employee, you’re only helping someone else pursue their lame dream.
Jay Godse
on 25 Apr 08Great article David.
You have put into words what I have seen over and over. At the end of it, face time is what mitigates shoddy management and shoddy businesses. Young 20-somethings are in the best position to provide the face time, and most startups suffer from shoddy management.
When I was a hiring manager I had a mix of young 20-somethings and crusty old family guys (40+). I really enjoyed the young guys because they would execute my less inspring ideas well by putting in lots of face time. I equally enjoyed the old guys (and girls) because if I proposed a stupid feature, or a stupid design, or a stupid way executing, they’d give me the “You’re a stupid manager” look and suggest that we do it differently or not at all. They saved my bacon quite a few times. On occasion, I had some smart ideas and both groups did well with them.
The cheapest line of code or feature is the one you don’t have to write because it does not advance your business. The crusty old guys are good at finding those because they have spent enough years writing useless features that nobody wants. Those useless features contribute indirectly to lots of overtime.
But at some point, you need somebody to just execute, and that is where the young guys are really valuable, and much better to have around than the old family guys.
The problem in a lot of software companies is that many product managers think that they “just need to execute”, and don’t think that their ideas on scope, quality, and time could possibly be horribly wrong. The proof of this statement is the fact that most software projects are cancelled, go way over budget, and that the benefit of delivered functionality is less than the cost. The brunt of these defective methods is borne by software developers willing to put in large amounts of face (over)time.
You guys at 37 Signals have the luxury of this kind of thinking because I believe (from your blogs and your products) that you only develop features that people want to use, and you roll them out in small enough chunks that any “bad” features don’t end up costing you as much. Because you have a front-end feature management process that is very effective at weeding out useless features, your software development processes overall are more efficient. (Using Rails probably doesn’t hurt either :) ). It does speak well of you that you use this dividend keep your programmers happy while still remaining profitable.
Martial
on 25 Apr 08When my wife was pregnant, I was talking to an older colleague about the changes that come with children. This is a guy whose work I respect to the moon and back: he’s just brilliant and I keep looking for ways to hire him. He said two things that have stuck with me since my daughter was born:
1. it took having children to make him a professional; and 2. he makes sure he gets all his work done early so he can spend as much time with his kids as possible.
I relate to #2. And that seems to be having a positive effect on #1.
Meikel Steiding
on 25 Apr 08Nice Article. Coming from the Advertising Business this little part of a sentence gained my attention:
‘…the work appears to have meaning…’
This would explain why people are always working late in the ad business ;-)
Thanks David.
me.
Josh
on 25 Apr 08After having our daughter two years ago, I quickly decided that I would no longer let a job define who I was. I have since watched myself become more effective and productive in my working world.
George
on 25 Apr 08We hire the young 20 somethings because they have the freshest view and are free of the corporate bullshit that many of us older folks have experienced. We look to mix the young with seasoned “vets” to find a balance. The younger members of our team challenge the old ways, and the vets provide wisdom to the youth.
It’s all about balance and hiring needs to be made on an individual basis; keeping to one type / age bracket of employee is just a bad idea.
Winston Smith
on 25 Apr 08I’M single, 34 and without kids.
While my “family oriented co-workers” are picking up their kids from school at 3PM and then decide to take the rest of the day off is when I put in 14 hour days. When some 45 year old husband knocks up his younger wife with their 4th kid they can hardly afford and ends up sleeping in his desk I put in 14 hour days. When its excuse after excuse with these “family types” I’m the ONLY guy who is tough enough and loyal enough to help out. Its a form of office socialism that I hate. See the “family man” gets a bigger paycheck because he “has a family to support” even though hes not entitled to his salary because he and other family types have yet to put in a full 40 hour week or complete any task given to them fully without error.
Your article is short sighted and offensive. I recommend you keep your myopic observations to yourself and in your spare time reflect on how these thing read to others.
Jay Godse
on 25 Apr 08Winston. Your loyalty to your company is something that many people would love to have in their company. You seem bothered that family people don’t show loyalty in the same way you do.
As an experiment, try a couple of weeks where you test yourself to see if you can work only 10 hour days instead of 14….leave work no later than 6:00 if you start at 8:00 AM, no matter what. Then ask yourself if you are less loyal and less productive. (Based on your character, I would say, probably not). This means pressing yourself to complete tasks before you leave, and to put off low-priority work.
DHH and JF at 37 Signals tried something like this and they found the results quite pleasantly surprising….and I would guess that their programmers are happier too.
I think that DHH’s point in this posting is that if your time is very constrained, it is amazing what you can get done if you focus. There is a tacit requirement here for clear and achievable goals as well…
From my experience, most projects that required lengthy stretches of very long days were a result of business/project leaders making impossible promises to customers and sponsors, or from development leaders not providing enough tools and other resources that would enable people to complete their work during the day. Is that the case at your company, or is it something else?
nonfamilyguy
on 25 Apr 08I’ve been in a number of jobs where the family people worked their hours and then bowed out at 5:30 citing, of course, family stuff. Did that mean the non-family people could also leave at 5:30?
No, of course not, the expectation was that since they didn’t have a good excuse like having to pick up their kid at daycare that they should pick up the slack and work until 7pm.
Obviously grossly unfair and yet tolerated and expected even when it was pointed out.
Joel
on 25 Apr 08You don’t have to be married with kids to be skeptical and bluntly tell someone they are full of it. All you’ve realized is that inexperienced people who work insane hours are putting on a song and dance of activity to compensate for their lack of real outcomes.
Impregnating someone has very little to do with common sense.
oldsod
on 25 Apr 08LIAR LIIIIIIIIIAAAAARRRRRR
Look 20ish somethings don’t know anything about business. Being 20ish at one time I thought that I had to burn the candle at both ends. Being young, dumb and full ‘o c*m at the time I had the energy and stamina to learn from my mistakes.
Now at 40is I don’t have the time to waste learning from my mistakes. My father said it best when he told me that his businesses grew and were successful because:
THE IDEA WAS TO MAKE MONEY SELLING A PRODUCT OR SERVICE.
In reality all the 20ish somethings that I hire to do the grunt work and who are at times more up to speed on the new ideas that come out sometimes have me wondering what school of business reality they went to.
The 40ish family guys are more mature, stable, and generally we hire those that have families cause I don’t want to spend 20 hours a day at work.
I want everyone out of the offices in 12 hours or less so that they can tend to physical, mental, emotional and spiritual needs.
My company made over $5 mil last year (3rd year in business). We sell a great set of products and services that are marketed to businesses that need them YET TIME AND TIME again I hear stupid ass remarks in my monthly meetings on how we should ramp up with VC, ROR, go more open source, drop Micro$oft, outsource, offshore, nearshore….blah blah blah…from the 20ish crowd.
Most of the 40ish are more focused on how to do their job better, how to get the next promo by introducing more profitability, streamlining and working with what we use.
Guess which group we have more of as employees?
my response to you 20ish goombas: start your own company when you start paying the bills you’ll start singing a different tune!
GEEZ doesn’t that sound like your father????? MAYBE HE WAS RIGHT AFTER ALL!!!!!!
whooooooaaaaaaaaah
Vicky H
on 25 Apr 08@Winston
I don’t think 37 Signals gave Jamis a raise a few months ago when his new son came into the world.
Maybe your boss saw a ‘sucker’ :) who would just pound out the hours. Maybe you should re-evaluate how you let others treat you.
You sound like you have another chip and are just venting here on this post.
Think about it.
Dave Greiman
on 25 Apr 08Agreed… There has to be a balance with time. I also like a balance of family people and non-family people in the workplace.
Eileen
on 25 Apr 08Why do so many people define themselves by family or career or a combination thereof? I’m young, single, and childless, and I have interests outside of work that have just as high priority to me.
Adam
on 25 Apr 08The assumption here is that all the work that can get done gets done between 9am and 5pm.
I’ve worked at a couple big web companies that have had hundreds of servers. It was important to make sure that the sites were up 24/7. I loathe to borrow from the Hillary Clinton campaign, but there had to always be someone to take the 3am call to fix something if it went south.
At the most recent workplace, the pager was given out based on who volunteered for it. Guess who volunteered for it? The “immature” people who didn’t have a wife or kids. But I didn’t complain then. I only speak up when someone points out how immature and inefficient I must be because I don’t have a wife and kids.
Ex
on 25 Apr 08I don’t love working with people whose excuse for not learning new things is “I’m not a young, unattached guy like you who has tons of time and no responsibilities.”
Javier[EmaStudios]
on 25 Apr 08I can say that I have meet fathers and mothers who have 2+ kids and they still love to learn new things regarding their profession. Gosh, I run my own business and I’m usually with 4, 6 different projects at the time while I manage other people to work on the rest of the projects even across the globe.
Guess what. I’m single, but I still can make some time for myself to learn new stuff. Married people with other responsibilities does the same most of the time.
The trick is not hire single people. The trick is not hire married people with kids. The trick is to hire motivated people who feel passion for what they do.
That’s what’s moving the world right now. The rest is just looking.
Javier Cabrera
david tuma
on 25 Apr 08There is no perfect employee. Some young people are fantastic employees. One of the hardest working most consistent employees in my 16 years of running newspapers was a young woman. The best employee I have ever had was 78 when she first started working with me 12 years ago. Some family oriented people make good employees some don’t.
It depends upon the person, who they are are as a person and what is inside of them. I don’t interview people by how they look, job skills, or what they say they will do. That is so small of a part of it. Who this person is, is what counts. Those strong willed people will get you through the tuff times in business not some fly by night hot shot who works like gang busters for three months and burns out.
What is inside, what they do when you aren’t looking or more importantly what they are doing when God isn’t looking. Family people are usually strong but somethings the stress at home causes problems at work.
I can tell you this…young people who are single can be great, valuable, worthwhile employees for long periods of time.
Don’t judge by age, color, body weight, looks, home life…anything but what and who that person truly is inside. If you can find a person who does a good job and won’t run off the first time the building burns to the ground…hire them.
MEH
on 25 Apr 08As an ex-techie and now a project strategist, I concluded that much of the work is mis-managed, poorly planned and mis-prioritized. If the manager can develop a strategic overview that enables the team to see how their job connects with the bigger. The ppl can perform and produce better.
frogor
on 25 Apr 08Kudos to you for writing this.
I don’t have a family, yet I’ve only recently come to this realization (and yes, I’m a computer guy in my 20s) – and it was a big one.
An environment that encourages the 14 hour day and places the workplace above all other priorities in your life is HOSTILE and you don’t have to take it.
Businesses that employ that method are expecting to cash in on high turnover employees that start at the low end of the wage scale, burn bright and short like a firework, and then they discard them for the next person through the door. That’s not a career – that’s self-inflicted Hell.
If you’re doing it for money, then by all means, go for it – but go into it with your eyes wide open. Do it because you love the work but don’t delude yourself into thinking the company loves you back.
But don’t forget to stop at some point and look for a real life.
Dan
on 25 Apr 08Fantastic post. I work in a different field but the same thing is true. But the thing I’d say that it’s important is the maturity on the part of the management to set reasonable deadlines and stick with them. If having kids make you realize that you have limits, so much the better. If you set an unreasonable deadline you end with sloppy work that just flops past the finish line. If you set a reasonable timetable for the work to be accomplished people take their time and come up with elegant solutions to complex problems and wind up being able to apply those new solutions in the future. It’s the difference between cramming and studying.
It’s hard for leaders of companies to say to clients and investors that the product they want will take longer than they’re prepared to allow. That kind of thing is especially hard for young companies who are growing and whose need to prove themselves is paramount. I’d much rather work for a company that wanted to do things right by taking more time than one that does MORE.
cubiclegrrl
on 25 Apr 08Actually, if the parents I work with would
a.) Stop bringing their snot-nosed little plague-rats into work, and/or
b.) Stop assuming that being a parent somehow gives them the “right” to work from home that others aren’t allowed (b/c it would be “too disruptive” to the collaboration)
whenever daycare won’t take the kids, I’d have a lot less trouble with the work-life balance implementation.
But in any company I’ve worked for that’s made any pretense to it, it’s never, EVER been a two-way street. The single/childless people are left to take up the slack on evenings, weekends, typically on no notice.
If I weren’t female, I’d almost want to work at the “old-school” places for that very reason. Namely because when the quiet time at the end of your ten-hour day is broken because the cleaning people have to shampoo the carpet where somebody’s kid peed on it during Take Your Child to Work Day-I am not making that up!-it doesn’t do much to improve your attitude toward people who think that the “balance” only works one way.
There’s room for all styles, certainly. But the work-life balance has to be applied equitably to all lifestyles. Not just a codeword for extra (unofficial) vacation for parents.
The sad thing is, I work for a pretty humane company. It’s the entitlement mentality of many with kids that gets on my nerves. Deadlines are deadlines, little Johnny’s soccer tournament notwithstanding.
Dennis Forbes
on 26 Apr 08Maybe he gets a bigger paycheck because he’s a better employee than you?
Life isn’t fair. If your coworkers are valued more by your employer, then they’ll have more liberties. Make up all the reasons you want, but in the end it’s just because you’re more disposable.
J Liles
on 26 Apr 08I’m pretty sure numerous studies (some of which I believe are cited in “Peopleware”) have shown that there is a limit to the amount of work that will be done by knowledge workers, regardless of clock-time. In other words, those young turks who stay late, eat pizza, and sleep on a sofa next to the foosball table are probably not getting any more real work done than if they worked a highly-focused 8-9 hours.
The most productive developers I’ve worked with have all been “family-people” who stay very focused at work, eliminate distractions, and avoid unnecessary meetings and corrosive gossip sessions. They also innately understand prioritization (perhaps a function of the wisdom gained from managing the complexities of family life). They know when cutting scope/pushing back is appropriate, and they know the difference between an issue that requires a dose of heroism and an issue that represents someone’s hysteria.
Eric
on 26 Apr 08@Winston, whenever you see employees doing something dumb/bad in your opinion, look no further than their supervisors, as they’re the one supporting or ignoring the behavior. If your boss is letting somebody else slack, call him on it.
Saying that parents leave at 3pm, not to return is one thing. Are they getting their work done? Are they coming in before 8am to make up for it? I’ve had guys like you work for me before, and the ones that worked the long hours/weekends were often just slow at their job (methodical, they called it). Bust it out, get it done and go home. If your home life consists of Xbox, cage fights on cable and frozen dinners, staying at the office probably isn’t much better/worse.
The main gist of this post is, kids = life/priorities outside of work. Even before I had my son, I’d often do on-site consulting for a number of clients. Since I run my own company, I’d need to juggle time between them, so a client may only get 7hrs/day or 30hrs/week to stay on budget for a project. So I knew I only had so much time per day to knock out my deliverables, no extra surfing, no smoke breaks, no long lunches. I got in, got my work done, and split for the next gig.
I’d see the contrast when sharing office space with the in-house employees. Many would be surfing, watching videos, doing email in the late afternoon. If you’re done with your work, go home! But the 9-5 mentality has them stuck in their chairs.
Bitter old women
on 26 Apr 08The main problem with “family people” is they’re almost always fat and boring, substituting the no-life they had working all the time with a new no-life that revolves around “raising” their broods of out-of-control, overfed monkeys.
They tend to be mediocre performers, doing just the minimum needed to get by and they’re annoying to be around, always blathering about the latest exploits of their precious little chimps. As though falling off a fence, drawing a picture or chewing on a turd were somehow amazing accomplishments.
If that weren’t bad enough, “family people” are also selfish, expecting everyone else to pick up their slack so they can rush off at 4pm to some non-business-related garbage their brats are involved in this week.
I like to hire older women who don’t have kids and aren’t likely to. They work all the time because they have nothing else to do. They have pretty good judgment, since life has pummeled away their youthful delusions and they know their place. They have lots of great stories about things like married guys using them up and tossing them in the gutter. And as a bonus, they’ll stomp the guts out of anyone who messes with the company because the job is the foundation of their world.
I closing, I say bitter older women are better than “family people.” They may make you sick everywhere else, but they’ll make you lots of money at work.
Javier[EmaStudios]
on 27 Apr 08AS A FAT AND BORING PERSON I DEMAND SOME RESPECT. And I’m not just talking for me, but for all the fat and boring people out there just doing their jobs and having no life whatsoever.
It isn’t fair to think just because someone is “fun to be with” is better worker.
It isn’t fair to think just because someone is older and have kids is a better worker.
It isn’t fair to think just because someone is single is better worker.
I think life is fair. What isn’t fair, is people. Single-Married with Children have both their own advantages; why not mix them?
And yes, people with children need to work from home some times. They are parents for Bomba’s sake, what do you expect? a soldier? well, call the army and hire a couple; because regular people with kids (civilians) needs to be around with them some times.
Or fire them and look for someone who suit your needs. But because it doesn’t adjust a “way of working” it isn’t fair to put everyone in the same basket.
This discussion is just stupid. The guy just said why HE love to work with family people; that’s it.
My hands are shaking now; see what you guys did? I will have to kill something today or I won’t be able to sleep (kidding).
Take care. Javier
Javier[Ema...]
on 27 Apr 08And yes. I just say “just” a lot when I write. It’s just me who does this? Or there are also more people that can’t just stop doing it?
Take care. Javier
Neil Wilson
on 27 Apr 08The most important thing about having kids is that they give scope to the world and offer perspective. You can picture when your kids are going to school, when they are going to drive a car and when they are going to graduate.
Most of the systems I built before my eldest daughter was born are no longer in use. She turns five next month and has just started primary school.
Bear that in mind the next time something is billed as more important than life itself.
Or-Tal
on 27 Apr 08Hi This is an excellent post! I think that the mixture of all types it the real key to success. The more diversified employee background is – the better chances are you will get a creative, surviving environment. To make it a real social environment to work in you must keep a reasonable balance between men-women, single-married etc. Just one reminder though: don’t forget to look at the individual person behind the gender/status/diplomas etc….
Javier[EmaStudios]
on 27 Apr 08Bravo. Just bravo. I don’t think there is more to say about the subject.
BobDog
on 27 Apr 08Many posters seem to miss the underlying point: any business/project that relies on continuous overtime is probably mismanaged. It’s not about the single 20-somethings versus the married old farts. Furthermore, when people become habituated to continous overtime, their focus and productivity begin to drift. It becomes easy to fiddle and fuss for an hour or so over non-important things (or maybe have a game or two of foosball) because consciously or unconsciously, you begin to rely on having “all the time in the world” to get it done. And of course, always make your deliverable milestones land on Mondays – because we all know that weekends are infintely long. One of the tenets of XP is to reduce or eliminate habitual overtime. Turn off the lights at 6pm. Lock the doors on the weekend. But make sure everyone starts work on time, arrives ready to get ‘er done and puts in a full and fair day. People who have to get things done in a limited timeframe quickly become focused, tolerate fewer distractions and generally work smarter. Projects with more time take longer.
Torley
on 28 Apr 08Good post; I like how relatively terse it was but how much punch it packed into a few, short, effective paragraphs — especially the part about “trying to give turds wings”.
Kinda reminds me of the oft-cited “90 HOURS A WEEK AND LOVING IT!” from this Apple Computer story:
» http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=90_Hours_A_Week_And_Loving_It.txtIntense, overtime rushes do happen and are needed for some projects, but they shouldn’t be the norm. Gets really unhealthy and stressful. Setting self-limits, as some of the above posters have pointed out, is also conducive to greater efficiency and getting MORE done in LESS time.
juliemarg
on 29 Apr 08Work will expand to fit the time available. An efficient time manager can do in 6 hours what a scattered one can do in 12. It’s a fact.
Sascha Brossmann
on 01 May 08Good post, valid points, seems to have hit on a nerve considering the load of previous comments. Interesting – and slightly sad – to see how many people misread the post as a personal offence…
Seems about high time for a climate/cultural change in the creative industries and the knowledge/tech business world. Which to a large part still needs to learn that people working less and having a private life actually might contribute to a win/win situation. (Assuming that all parties involved turn out to be smart enough.) At the bottom line it is simply important to get the right things done well enough. Intelligent productivity is what counts, not hours per day. And it’s a key factor in getting good at what one is doing continuously. (Delivering great results once is quite easy, and you might even succeed at this with 80 hrs/week, but it’s damn hard to be “simply” just good most of the time. I’m still striving to fail better at each turn I try…)
Besides, according to my experience happier people with a multi-faceted sense of worth/values, and more than one dedication tend to create better work. Why? Better motivated, better focused, better sense of importance, better and more stable self-esteem, more empathy (i. e. towards colleagues, business partners, customers), better judgement, less likely to burn out, more creative etc., in the end: more productive. Just less suited for slavery. But then, who wants to compete with slaves?
This discussion is closed.