The hot article of the day is Why Your Startup Shouldn’t Copy 37signals or Fog Creek over at OnStartups.com.
I agree. And I’m sure Joel Spolsky agrees too. I think this comment on Hacker News nails it too.
Here’s the problem with copying: Copying skips understanding. Understanding is how you grow. You have to understand why something works or why something is how it is. When you copy it, you miss that. You just repurpose the last layer instead of understanding all the layers underneath.
The article is referring to ideas and business models, but I think interface design is an example more people can relate to. Have you seen an interface that was obviously copied from someone else’s interface? The copy usually lacks depth and detail. They miss the spacing, the proportions, the relationship between colors and objects and buttons and links. It’s usually pretty close, but there’s something not right about it.
Why? Shouldn’t copying something be easier than creating it? Someone else already did the work, right? The problem is that the work on the original is invisible. The copier doesn’t know why it looks the way it looks or feels the way it feels or reads the way it reads. The copied interface is a faux finish.
This is why future iterations of a copied interface begin to break down quickly. The copiers don’t understand where to take it next because they don’t understand the original intention. They don’t know the original moves so they don’t understand the next move.
Look around at interfaces that were clearly copied from someone else’s UI and you’ll find a lot of inconsistencies and sore thumbs. That’s the new stuff.
While I’ve been using interface design as an example, the original article was more about business models. I think copying leads to a lack of understanding there as well. Be influenced by many, copy none.
So bottom line: Copying hurts you. You miss out on what makes something good. Instead, try to be exposed to a variety of perspectives and points of view. Take whatever you find useful and leave the rest behind. Fill in the gaps with your own ideas. In the end you have make your own way forward.
Fred
on 06 Feb 09Did you really have to link to HN?
Jason Amster
on 06 Feb 09I think though, it should be pointed out that everyone copies from everyone in some fashion or another. It’s just the way we all work. Blatant copying, I agree, will hurt you in the end, but taking inspiration from others’ work is what everyone does. I don’t know any designer who doesn’t get “inspiration” (copy) from another designer’s work to some degree.
Grant
on 06 Feb 09Great post. You can’t just copy someone. I liken it to being a kid and learning a sport. When you start out, you just want to “be” one of your sports heros. But at the same time you’re taking baby steps into learning the sport yourself. Eventually, while you might still admire your heros, you realize you are an athlete yourself and you have to adapt your own training and learning and methods to what will make you the best athlete. That’s what gives you the actual depth, knowledge, and experience that you need for success.
JF
on 06 Feb 09Copying is taking what someone else did, duplicating it, maybe changing a few small things, and putting it out there as yours.
Inspiration is seeing what someone else did and then building upon those ideas from scratch.
Robby Russell
on 06 Feb 09There is definitely a fine line between copying and being inspired by. 37signals has inspired and motivated so many entrepreneurs to think, “hey, i can do this too!” Those that copy (or try to hard to mimic) are always going to exist and they’ll continue to be the mediocre companies and products. This happens in nearly every area of our lives since the beginning of civilization.
Knowing the difference between copying and inspired by is something we should all evaluate in our decisions. Are we making decision X because 37signals would do that? What would Jason Fried do?
When the better question should be something like, “What should my company do in this situation? and how might Jason Fried approach this problem?”
Pablo PIcasso
on 06 Feb 09Good artists copy. Great artists steal.
Think about it before you flame.
J
on 06 Feb 09If you want to take advice from someone mentally unstable enough to cut their ear off, be my guest. That sorta disqualifies them in my book.
Timothy
on 06 Feb 09I don’t do UI in applications, but I do work on web design. And this post really reminds me of how so many web designers use content management systems, JavaScript PHP or other frameworks and other solutions. Yet, they are really unaware of the inner-workings. I think taking inspiration from others is a great idea. Or sometimes even open-source solutions. But then, in that case, you must know (this is the hard part) that you can do it from scratch if you really needed to. Most people tell themselves this but really can’t. If you’ve done it before and can see all the layers of another person’s work then it isn’t as bad. But this hardly ever is the case.
Eric Givens
on 06 Feb 09lol @J
I totally agree with this post…with the exception of a few minor points.
I think copying can be a valuable learning tool, if it is used properly. When one is learning the ins-and-outs of HTML, for instance, finding a site you really like, digging into the code and tearing it apart can be more valuable than any number of tutorials you could dig up online. But the difference comes in the understanding: pull it apart, dissect it, learn what makes it tick, but don’t copy.
I guess there is a very fine line between inspiration and stealing…
Shane
on 06 Feb 09Picasso did not cut off his ear. That was Van Gogh.
Vincent
on 06 Feb 09Except that was Van Gogh not Picasso..
Scott Brooks
on 06 Feb 09Been copied many times and it sucks that the ideas that we have developed have been reproduced. Other peoples products shouldn’t be a technical roadmap for another company.
Serve as a spring board …maybe, inspiration sure …..copy …hell no.
Cheers Scott
MJ
on 06 Feb 09First drafts of my current project where quite basecampish. Now after various iterations it does look somewhat similar but does things differently at so many places – mainly because it just has other aims. I would never keep a part of the page unmodified because “it’s as good as basecamp’s” – that will get you nowhere.
And besides: I believe there are many people with (for example) writers block, and they just copy a sentence from somewhere and start writing around it – and the result is great, unique, but it did start by “copying” – just to get the gears moving. But taking the start, the peak and the end of a story will definately not bring out another bestseller.
Andrew Brown
on 06 Feb 09I think that people can end up at the same design patterns as 37signals apps or branding but its not “copying” when they’ve spent the time exhausting all other options and found that the same patterns happens to fit. Its also really hard because 37signals did pioneer or popularize these design patterns but its seems like they’ve claimed everything as “Look and Feel”. I liked them to acknowledge the patterns from the “Look and Feel”.
Would you say that lighthouse app is copying 37signals Basecamp as one example? Maybe 37signals doesn’t bother talking about this more in depth because people can get lost in what’s “technically” copying and this could leave a debate down to the exact pixels.
Jorge Galindo
on 06 Feb 09I respectfully disagree. Or something.
You can’t grow up without copying. Copying (and not only inspiration) is the engine of socialization, of learning process. I copy every day, in every single part of my life, because I try to absorb everything in my environment that is useful for my daily life, work, leisure, whatever. Copying doesn’t necessary skips understanding. In fact, many times it is needed to reflect and understand.
In fact, copy is what makes society go on. Because social relations are esentially copying. But the beauty of copying is that you never can do an exact replica. Of course, and this is the point where I think we will be agree, if you try to just replicate what you like and apply it to something totally different, you’ll fail. That doesn’t make sense. Copying is an art: just use other people’s ideas to your own circumstances.
But maybe it’s becoming a semantic discussion, because I think what you understand for “copy” and “inspiration” is not the same I do. For me, “inspiration” is a light, fresh air that comes from somewhere, you know where but not exactly. And “copy” is nearer to what (I believe) you understand for “inspiration”.
And by the way, sorry for my terrible English.
Douglas F Shearer
on 06 Feb 09People want to copy Fog Creek? They’ve obviously not used Fogbugz, one of the most awful bugtracking apps out there.
I believe that taking inspiration from a great app or site is totally acceptable, after all; imitation is the greatest form of flattery.
Scott
on 06 Feb 09You missed the point of the original post on OnStartups. The point was:
The root problem is that the so-called “examples” we’re supposed to learn from are outliers. An “outlier” is a data point well outside the normal range—a statistical anomaly.
37signals is an outlier with successes that cannot be replicated simply by replicating its processes and products. Other business models are not outliers and do lend themselves to successful replication. 37signals is a “statistical anomaly” (you can count on one hand probably, the number of successful companies with similar business strategy, products, staffing, etc.) which makes for some of the fun in svn about what works and doesn’t work.
Scott
on 06 Feb 09I remember that post by the 8apps guy, that showed that 37signals copied the look of the “Add project” button to look exactly like 8apps.
I believe copying is good, but the “copy” should just be the first part of the process of making a better product.
Matt
on 06 Feb 09@ Andrew Brown: That’s a good point. I think also if you work in Rails, there is scaffolding that automatically pulls in those design patterns (i.e., the look-and-feel).
This isn’t an accusation, but even the dynamic movement in the page (drag-drop) could be attributed to several scripts that so many are using (and in some cases overusing).
That said, imo, there is no mistaking a 37Signals product.
I hoping reading and re-reading “Getting Real” and letting those lessons sink in isn’t copying, because, that book crystallized the way I had always done business.
In fact, I grew up in a business environment, so my pop was a very big influence. He and the 37s crew come from a completely different era and completely different subject matter, but his business philosophies were/are very similar.
There is a classical element to the ideas and I think that’s worth emulating. But, if someone really understands those lessons, they rarely need to copy anything.
@Jason F: I do think that some of this is brought on by the excellent “how we do this stuff” posts. I read that stuff and there is a “oh…cool, let me try that”. My end result will be different, but the elements might be evident.
Course, imitation is the highest form of flattery. And, though you probably don’t need the ego stroke, that might be one of looking at it.
Scott
on 06 Feb 09The other main point of the original post is:
if I could pick something that all these companies have in common it’s that they aren’t afraid to buck conventional wisdom if they think it would be contradictory to their culture.
(emphasis from original)37signals is certainly not afraid to buck conventional wisdom. They’re quite successful at it. The problem is that when YOU (dear svn readers) follow the lead thinking you’re also bucking conventional wisdom, you’re not. Instead, you’re simply following the New Conventional Wisdom (NCW). And that is not the same thing.
In many ways, with this audience, the un-conventional has become conventional. The edge to be gained from being not “afraid to buck conventional wisdom” is then lost.
That is why you should not copy 37signals or anyone else.
kev
on 06 Feb 09I’m getting WWJFD tattooed on my forehead.
Tony
on 06 Feb 09havnt people been blogging for ages?
37signals comes along, organizes them, and now they feel motivated to write blogs about how none of should try and do anything like them because they have done it already.
Mark Weiss
on 06 Feb 09Albert Einstein “The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.”
If I find a site that has figured out a way to solve the problem I am attempting to solve then I have no problem copying it.
Kamil
on 06 Feb 09Picasso once said, good artists copy, great artists steal. I think that copying good solutions from others is more probable to lead to success, than doing everything by our own. But this is only my opinion, try it for yourself. Thanks for inspirating post.
Jason Sadler
on 07 Feb 09Great post.
1. Give credit where it is due. If you think something is worth copying, contact that person and tell them how much they inspire you. Ask them if you can do something similar or if you can help them. Don’t be a copycat.
2. ESPN once said “steal with pride”. If you are going to copy something, at least have the balls to add your own flavor, make it your own and change it enough that you aren’t straight ripping someone off.
Giles Bowkett
on 07 Feb 09To summarize: Cargo cult business.
Nivi
on 07 Feb 09Here’s a similar example.
Suppose an alien sees a snapshot of a chess game in progress. Can he deduce the rules? Can he tell why the pieces are where they are? Can he predict where the pieces will be in the future? No, no, and no.
He doesn’t know the rules of the game (knowledge), why you make certain moves (understanding), or the moves that will improve the standing of either player (wisdom). This is just like observing a user interface and trying to determine the principles behind the author’s decisions, the decisions themselves, or the decisions that will improve the interface.
Understanding is important. Crucial, really. But we must complement understanding with wisdom. Understanding only tells us “why”. And the answer to “why” is often “because we want a future consequence from our behavior.” Wisdom lets us judge: to perceive and evaluate the long-run consequences of our behavior. Wisdom lets us judge the movement of a pawn. Or judge a one-click checkout button.
We can compare the results of our wisdom to the results of our understanding and see if they match. Why we are moving a pawn should match our judgement of the move, our perception and evaluation of the move’s consequences. If they match, proceed [1]. If they don’t match, improve your wisdom, understanding, or behavior.
Finally, we must complement our understanding and wisdom with knowledge. Knowledge tells us “how.” We need to know how to execute the desired behavior, e.g. how do I design an interface that makes more people sign up. Knowledge is often embodied in instructions, rules, processes, or guidelines.
I live in the American Gardens Building on W. 81st Street on the 11th floor. My name is Patrick Bateman. I’m 27 years old. I believe in taking care of myself and a balanced diet and rigorous exercise routine. In the morning if my face is a little puffy I’ll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches. I can do 1000 now. After I remove the ice pack I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower I use a water activated gel cleanser, then a honey almond body scrub, and on the face an exfoliating gel scrub. Then I apply an herb-mint facial mask which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an after shave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion.
For more, see Russell Ackoff.
[1] There is also the possibility that your wisdom function, understanding function, or the information you have about your behavior is not effective.
Bob Martens
on 07 Feb 09I like the focus on understanding what you are doing. What is the point of copying something if you can’t understand it?
Solomon King
on 07 Feb 09As a digital artist/web developer, it’s almost always inevitable not to get inspiration from another site or piece of design.
However, you can use that inspiration to learn how they did it and thus learn a new skill / methodology, immensely improving yourself.
Or you can cross to the dark side and duplicate it pixel by pixel, vexing the entire design community.
Anonymous Coward
on 07 Feb 09@jorge don’t stress, your English is fine. No-one’s picked up on the article’s final line, “you have make your own way forward” -you’re all clear :) I agree that the way you define copying is what I would consider being inspired by.
Copying here is “copy+paste” – it’s often very easy to tell. I think the root of all bad design is this. I guess it’s no longer design. It’s interesting applying it to business plans – so true that stuff will just fall apart. Great article.
Dan
on 07 Feb 09^ me – I blame my iPhone.. :P
Anonymous Coward
on 07 Feb 09From what I can see, it seems 37Signals’s main product can be duplicated in a weekend of coding (see: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/huddlechat_campfire_rip.php). And yet the company seems to still be prospering…
This should tell budding web entrepreneurs looking to follow in 37Signals’s footsteps: it ain’t about the product, dude.
The current “success” of 37Signals is due to the fortunate social dynamic, that people sign up for their service because other people have signed up for their service, and so on and so forth. In economics this would be known as an “endowment.”
Replicate 37Signals? Get in early, get lucky, and then live fat and get preachy ;)
batgril
on 07 Feb 09I think for most people, like me, you and Joel has definitely inspired us to do entrepreneurship. In the beginning, lacking in our own experience, we ‘copy’/borrow some of your methods/ways of doing business until we got on our own feet. Then as our business and products grows, we let of go ourselves from you and are big enough to define our own goals and direction. It’s just natural process.
Steven
on 07 Feb 09Throwing the baby out with the bath water. For fear that this “copying” might deafening sound advice.
We have an investor/silent partner who grew a small two man software company to a public company long before Basecamp was ever born.
He has never heard of 37signals. But his advice to us is the same as yours. Build a sustainable business, work on the things that never change, keep it simple, hire when it is necessary. Keep the venture funds out.
This guy did the “37signals” thing before it was Keeping it Real and built a business. So there is validity to the methods.
Not listening to people who have been there and done that is just plain stupid.
Jason Cohen
on 07 Feb 09I’m the author of the original article on OnStartups.
I wanted to clarify what my article says, exactly. Here’s the outline:
1. Emotional rant against the fact that the SAME OLD examples are used over and over again for “how to run your business/blog/life.” Surely there are others!
2. The advice is contradictory, because for any “rule of business” there’s a opposite rule that also works.
3. Suggest that the explanation for this phenomonan is that “massive success” in business or blogging is a one-in-a-million-ish situation. So copying directly won’t get you there.
4. Conclude that you should be inspired and that you should take THOSE RULES which match YOUR WORLDVIEW, because being true to a single philosophy seems to be one of the few things these companies/people have in common.
Number 1 is what a lot of people are lashing back at, but it’s just a rant! I’m inspired by all those guys too, don’t you see?
Number 2 is hard to argue against; the evidence is overwhelming.
Number 3 is easy to argue against; indeed I think it’s fascinating what people have come up with for this. That’s intelligent debate.
Number 4 is opinion of course.
I NEVER SAID you should never copy or not be inspired or totally ignore successes. I said you can’t copy blindly and expect success. I said you need need to filter rules through your own world-view. I said you should think about having a unique path.
Thanks all! This is fun.
wy
on 07 Feb 09Great Artists steal.
Cornify
on 07 Feb 09Cornify is one single static page but clones still somehow manage to break the layout, although they very clearly just copied the source and made some tweaks. Just shows how any effort (or lack of) is visible, no matter how small.
37Signals, you just got cornified!
Arik Jones
on 07 Feb 09I agree with Wy. I’d rather steal. ;)
David
on 09 Feb 09I’ve been saying for a long time that copying is not good and frankly I’m pissed off that once again 37 signals copied my idea and wrote this article.
David
on 09 Feb 09wy 07 said: Great Artists steal.
WRONG. Great artists know what’s worth stealing ;-). If you are going to steal something it should be from Apple. I don’t see why anyone would want to copy 37 Signals any more than anyone would want to steal a Yugo.
ABasketOfPups
on 09 Feb 09Tisk. Copying Apple is hard: ever make a piece of hardware meant to be sold to millions? It’s not cheap.
Copying… or taking inspiration from… 37signals is practical. It’s possible. And the cheap shot, referring to them as a “Yugo,” doesn’t apply in any practical way.
They’re letting anyone into the Troll’s Guild these days…
tom
on 09 Feb 09goplan and lighthouse are just as great and they didnt copy – they stole ;)
and that’s cool to have alternative because not everyone might like your products – just live with it.
Jason
on 09 Feb 09Didn’t you guys copy Campaign Monitor’s homepage when you designed the new look of your product sites?
There’s rarely anything original anymore. Just better versions of what we’ve already seen. If someone can copy you and do it better, then more power to them.
Thibaut
on 09 Feb 09Applies to industrial design too : Jeff Bezos should have read that before he OK’ed the iKindle… It really seems better than v1, but it shows the same lack of vision – design wise – featuring almost all the industrial design codes that Apple used two years ago.
Anonymous Coward
on 10 Feb 09Jason (from two comments above), I think you’re right that basecamphq.com and campaignmonitor.com are the same. If not a copy, then they’re both working from the same school of layout. Layout sections, in order from top to bottom are:
Short bar with tour, pricing, customer list, blog Big, green buttons – exactly the same shade of green – with white text – to sign up Links to highlight four features
A great example of how two products can end up looking the same because both are following a similar approach. If the end result is similar, does that mean it was a copy? I’m going to stop worrying about trying to look different. If my work ends up looking like someone else’s, then so be it.
Anonymous Coward
on 10 Feb 09damn: didn’t realize there was wiki-type tagging, so all my [] brackets in previous comments turned into links… oh well, here’s what I meant:
Sections, in order on both sites, top to bottom, are:
- Short bar with tour, pricing, customer list, blog
- Tagline and description on right / Screenshot on left
- Identically shaded green buttons to sign up
- Customer logos
- Links to highlight four key features
- Latest news, forums, blog posts
And it works for both sites. They are both well done. The 37signals site is not a cut-and-paste copy. It is well laid out and designed. If 37signals had gone to pains to not follow the same general layout as campaign monitor, then they would not have ended up with an optimal design. It would have looked contrived just for the sake of looking different.
Jason
on 10 Feb 09Anonymous Coward,
I totally agree. My point was that “copying” is perceived differently by each of us. I think the Campaign Monitor and 37signals pages look VERY similar, and it probably is a school of thought thing, or maybe its that both designers know that the look they used is receiving a good response today. They know that type of design works. It resonates with their customers (who are also of similar audiences). Or maybe 37signals just hired the Campaign Monitor designer to moonlight while its 2 am in Australia. Regardless, they are all well done pages, partially because they were created instead of copied.
Right now, I am in the process of “copying” both designs for my company home page. And you know what? It will be an optimal design because I’m starting from scratch. It will probably end up completely different, because actually creating something is a process.
What this is really about is “inspiration”. I think the kind of copying that the original post is about is actually scraping code and images (or emulating a business model), and not doing the work yourself to figure out what will work for you. Yes, anyone that does this is just destined for failure. Plus, anyone that does this must not be very experienced because they would know that its actually less work to create something yourself.
The sad thing is that it even needs to be a topic of discussion in so many places. If we know that ripping someone’s idea off will never produce the same results, why are we so worried about it?
Fried? Any more comments on this?
thanks for responding, Jason
Engago team
on 13 Feb 09You are successful as a company if you’re product gets copied.
This discussion is closed.