My SaaS product is done. We have a customer who we reached out to locally. I’ve got a freelance writer (via Reddit!) who is working on creating an email course to educate and inform potential customers. Until that is done there is nowhere for me to collect email addresses and start warming them up. However, I do have pricing and plans and the sign up is fully implemented. Is it worth creating a couple ads to start generating some traffic yet? Or is it going to be a complete waste of time until I have that ecourse and am able to collect email addresses? If I do create ads now is it critical to also have a landing page for each?
For over 12 years, I’ve run paid ad campaigns on popular channels like Google and Facebook, but also less known advertising channels like Reddit and Plenty of Fish. I’ve used those ads to get people to buy software, play online games, even buy flip flops my Mom handmakes. I’ve learned a ton about optimizing click through rates, landing pages, ad budgets, etc.
And those lessons have been super valuable. When we redid the Highrise marketing site I had a ton of lessons and tools at my disposal to help optimize our conversions. By changing layouts, copy, buttons, headlines, and testimonials, we doubled our conversion rate.
Nothing is a waste of time if done to learn a new skill. If you read any of the books on learning, like Talent Code, the trick is to practice deliberately and in small feedback loops that don’t kill you. Do you know much about paid ads and conversion optimization? Then that’s a great way to learn about them. Just time box it. Don’t spend many resources on this step.
See, I’ve also used these same skills to recruit thousands of users to a new business I started in 2011. Optimized the bejesus out of our ads on places like Reddit. We were getting super high conversion rates on our landing pages.
But here’s the rub. How many of those tens of thousands of people whom we recruited are now following what I’m doing at Highrise or Draft? How many of them follow my blog or what I have to say on Twitter? How many of those people whose attention I paid for in 2011, are helping me with my goals today?
None.
Even though I encourage experimentation with pay-per-click ads and landing page optimization, often their pursuit doesn’t get us very far.
Ads for most products in most industries are just way too saturated. It’s become a break even game of advertisers paying so much for a click, that they convert just enough customers and given the lifetime value of the customer, they make their ad budget back. But they look so tempting. It’s a fun puzzle to solve. If you could just find that overlooked keyword+product combo, you could just scale that up and profit.
But these players also know their customer’s lifetime value. They know how many new users each paid user recruits. They get the type of traffic they can use to get significant statistical samples to split test every button, headline, and word. The people winning the ad game can play with a sophistication to make their ad budgets back plus profit, and still the results are usually temporary as new entrants and click fraud push click prices higher and higher.
But many of us who are on our first product or even our tenth product don’t have all these things figured out yet.
So instead of spending much time on optimizing landing pages and ads, I’d spend more time on what Paul Graham would say: Things that don’t scale.
You mentioned having one customer, now go get 10. Call them. Meet at their office. Go give them a demo in person. Review their results with them slowly and methodically. This stuff doesn’t scale. You aren’t going to want to make this the way you get big, but one customer is often not enough. If they are the only one in your ear about features you need, you’ll probably be too inclined to make a specific thing that just fits their needs. I created Inkling as part of Y Combinator in 2005, and we were constantly in this state in the beginning. We would have one big customer paying us a hefty amount of money, but then the requirements they had were incredibly specific and not at all applicable to other clients down the road. Once we started getting that slightly bigger sample size, the commonalities were much easier to spot, and we could focus on those. It became a lot easier to make the right things the next customer needed, and build a product that would actually work as a business.
I’d also focus on teaching. Read everything Kathy Sierra talks about on the topic – actually, just read everything she’s written. Here’s a great place to start: Out teach your competition.
Your email course is a great idea. But you are right, you have no one to email. So where else can you get yourself teaching people. Are you writing a blog? Running a podcast? Doing any interviews with other teachers in this industry? What about trying to get some articles published in magazines? Hosting a meetup?
What’s great is how all this teaching can be repurposed for different places. Turn the email course into a video blog. Turn it into a set of lessons on Vine. Take pictures and use Instagram to share the lesson.
Gary Vaynerchuk does a great job of this. Every lesson can be repurposed and told using the strengths of another channel. Check out how he uses Instagram to teach.
Again, this stuff is often going to feel like it doesn’t scale. It’s a slog. And it doesn’t immediately convert to new customers and automatic wealth. But the payoff is in the long game. Start building an audience. Your product is going to go through dozens of iterations. Maybe it doesn’t even work out. But that audience? They’ll follow you to the next iteration, or the next project.
I wish this was the view I had taken when I was building that business in 2011. The money and time I spent could have been spent building an audience who could be helping me with today’s challenges.
Congratulations on your product. That is an awesome first step. Have fun! And keep the momentum going! Most people can’t even get something out the door. The fact though now is, most of our first products fail. We didn’t make them right. Or they’re missing something critical we didn’t realize we overlooked. Or in two years, you realize you need to pursue something different.
So, I’d be careful about trying to optimize something like pay-per-click ads, and landing pages. Those are often just local maxima, meaning you might improve something about it and it feels like a small win, but there’s probably a much bigger win to find if you open up your gaze on the life of your product and career as an entrepreneur. It’s hopefully a career you are going to be growing for a very long time.
(A version of my answer originally appeared on Reddit.)
P.S. If I can be of service at all to anyone, please let me know. Would love to help any way I can. Twitter is a great place to reach me. You should follow me: here.
Devan
on 27 Jul 15I am going to hypothesize that if redditor ‘themodshop’ is tracking his/her incoming referrals on Google Analytics, that they will see a tremendous spike in hits coming from being actively mentioned on a high profile blog like SvN.
I am in a similar position as him/her at the moment, and to be honest, am getting tired of people just telling me “Oh, just post about it on Twitter or your blog and that will be enough”. Well, even with nearly 1000 followers on Twitter, every time I post about my web apps on there, the returns are negligible if nil.
I have had far better luck on specific cataloguing site such as ProductHunt or BetaList. At least there, I am getting a lot of qualified prospects signing up and asking questions – 50 to 100x more than just mentioning something on Twitter or my blog, or on Medium.com.
In fact, my research has shown that the internet these days is pretty much split into two camps, the ‘influencers’ who are already established and already have fans who will evangelise their products/ideas, and the ‘unknowns’ who are busy working away in their basements well away from public view.
Unfortunately, the only way for someone in that second camp to break out is to be handpicked by an influencer who can leverage their position in the internet community to provide exposure and publicity. We’ve seen it time and time again when people like Seth Godin, Robert Scoble, Gary Vaynerchuck, Ariana Huffington et al just mention a product name – instant overnight success.
Which is why I made my point about themodshop’s site being mentioned here on SvN. Basecamp/37signals has tremendous leverage in the internet community, and a single word mentioned on these platforms can make or break someone, far more effectively than an expensive Adwords or Facebook campaign can.
Best of luck to themodshop and their project – I hope they break the big time with their niche product. Now, if you will excuse me, I am just going to go back to my damp, dank basement to work on my next web app… ;-)
Nathan Kontny
on 28 Jul 15Hi Devan! Thanks a ton for the comment. I’ve got so much to say on this topic and I’ll write up some more clear thoughts very soon. Please keep your eye out on SvN for it. But I will say:
“Oh, just post about it on Twitter or your blog and that will be enough”
I hope I didn’t give that impression in this post. Because I’m saying quite the opposite. This is a long slog for folks, including myself to have gotten the following and tools at my disposal to spread and market the things I work on. What I am saying though is that the slog is worth it. It’s worth spending the time figuring out how to make that Twitter account and blog and whatever else work for you as leverage for your projects.
And sure enough, endorsements from celebrities can help push someone to the forefront. But…
I doubt themodshop is seeing much from this post. There might be some traffic leaking, but there isn’t an endorsement to check out what they are working on. Don’t get me wrong. They might have the coolest new thing out there. I just haven’t checked it out at all. It was only recently that I even added a link to their site to this post after having a brief chat outside of this with themodshop. But maybe there is some traffic. Maybe some SvN readers are checking that site out and loving it. Great for them. But what happened here being mentioned in a top blog isn’t actually that hard to replicate.
“We’ve seen it time and time again when people like Seth Godin, Robert Scoble, Gary Vaynerchuck, Ariana Huffington et al just mention a product name – instant overnight success.”
I haven’t seen that at all. Instead I see: 1) If you’ve seen a Gary Vaynerchuck mention someone that goes onto be successful, that person had probably been toiling away for a decade before that. :) That’s what I see time and time again. The “overnight successes” that actually took 10 years. Or 2) you might see someone with a blip from those mentions and they die off into oblivion.
http://andrewchen.co/after-the-techcrunch-bump-life-in-the-trough-of-sorrow/
Check out that post on the “techcrunch” bump. That’s what more often that bump looks like when an influencer mentions us. That’s exactly what happened with Draft. I got a brief flash with a Techcrunch mention, and then it was just me slogging away again trying to get people to pay attention. The “influencer” mention is ephemeral.
I’ll also say though getting someone like a Seth Godin or a Gary Vaynerchuck to mention you is actually much more attainable than many think. It takes hard work, but it’s not the “lucky for them” type thing it looks like.
I’ve got a lot more about this soon. Needs its own post – or two or three :)
Devan
on 28 Jul 15Hey Nate,
Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t directing the “Oh, just post about it…” remark at you at all – it is just that so many other ‘get successful’ manifestos seem to labour that point.
But I think that the other old chestnut that needs to die is the concept of “if you work hard, success will surely come”. There is always going to be an element of luck and chance that will come into play that is not insignificant.
I am realistic enough to recognise that the influencer mention will create only the briefest spark, but really, in a lot of cases that is the spark that will light the Tinder (pardon the pun). I am sure that AirBnB, Uber etc. weren’t the first people, nor the brightest people to think of the concept. Somewhere along the way, they got a lucky mention or break that took them from the path of drudgery to superstardom.
Funny that you mention Draft. I am actually a paying subscriber of your excellent app since way back. In irony of ironies, I heard about, and signed up for Draft when it was mentioned right here on SvN one day by Jason F. If not for that, I would probably not know, nor paid for your app at all, as I do not venture around the other advertising platforms that you mentioned above. Since then, I have put a couple of colleagues, and my wife, onto Draft as well because in MY tiny world, I am an influencer that they listen to, and whose opinion (I hope) they respect.
I guess what I am saying is that, somewhere in that middle ground between working your a** off, and tripping over a billion dollars in the street, there must be a formula for getting attention and traction with your creations.
I’d love to see more posts about this from you. Feel free to hit me up via Twitter too (@dsabar) if you wanted to carry on this discussion outside of this blog.
Des
on 28 Jul 15Great answer Nathan. I strongly agree with your points.
One thing people don’t have a good grasp on is how long term growth tactics are different to short term ones and shouldn’t follow the same measurements. Out-teaching delivers compound returns, has a longer term pay off, and is way harder to commoditize.
Put another way, we wrote a post in 2008 that still gets us customers today. An advert we put live in ‘08 stopped contributing the second its budget hit zero. And the customers who believed what we wrote in 08, still follow us today.
Nathan Kontny
on 28 Jul 15Thanks Des! Exactly.
And thanks again too, Devan, you bring up a ton of great points. I'll share some quick thoughts here, and I'll expound on these in some posts soon.
"Somewhere along the way, they got a lucky mention or break that took them from the path of drudgery to superstardom."
I don't think that's at all the right way to look at it.
Here's a post I wrote on Luck that I recommend:
http://ninjasandrobots.com/why-are-some-people-so-much-luckier-than-others
Sure some of us, because of the luck of who our parents are and where we are born, are given an insane amount of privilege and resources compared to someone else. But given that we're reading this, with an internet connection, over a computer with a keyboard, the time to devote to write hundreds and thousands of words on a website – we both are probably way on the right side of that coin flip. :) Of course not equally. I don't know your situation. But you also don't know mine. And there's an enormous amount of people who get the wrong end of that coin flip and turn it into success.
Those AirBnB founders were grinders. They did anything it took to keep their business alive. They had to come up with new ideas like making their own cereal to keep paying the bills: Obama Os. https://www.airbnb.com/obamaos
And still they failed and failed. No one wanted to invest in them. But they kept adapting. Changing their business. Changing their ideas. Sure luck? Luck is just one chance working out. So they kept giving themselves more chances. They kept showing up. Trying new things.
"Funny that you mention Draft. I am actually a paying subscriber of your excellent app since way back. In irony of ironies, I heard about, and signed up for Draft when it was mentioned right here on SvN one day by Jason F. If not for that, I would probably not know, nor paid for your app at all, as I do not venture around the other advertising platforms that you mentioned above."
That is funny :) Because I don't advertise Draft at all. It's all from word of mouth and what people read about it in writing I post.
That's awesome you heard about it from Jason. But Draft was already on it's way to a success before Jason ever mentioned it on SvN.
That's not to say mentions from folks like Jason or Tim Ferriss don't help. Sometimes they do. Tim mentions both Highrise and Draft on his blog:
http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/05/07/noah-kagan/
But there's a reason Tim mentions Draft and it has little to do with luck. It has everything to do with: I noticed Tim was running a program where he was going to invest in a startup and he'd put a bunch of resources into it. So I messaged every single free user that was using Draft to bug Tim on Twitter to talk to me. After enough people bugged him, I was on his radar, and we talked for an hour on the phone about Draft and what I was doing.
Guess what. No investment :)
And I've also written a ton about Tim. For example, here I help promote his new television show:
http://www.fastcolabs.com/3026333/how-to-stop-overthinking-your-startups-new-feature
An awesome thing happens when you help promote others. They promote you. Tim helped push this blog post up. He did it because it's a great ad for his show, but it's also got links back to my own projects.
After all sorts of things like this, now I'm in his head. Now when people talk about it on his podcast, he knows exactly what Draft is, and can help spread the word.
I wouldn't call this luck. This was a ton of work writing, and engineering these things. I've been writing for years without anyone noticing. But I've tried new things. I've practiced a ton. Finally people notice and give me new opportunities. But it isn't without the work or adapting. And if someone didn't give me one opportunity, I'd find something else.
And more on the Draft front. The way Draft got into people's views to even start mentioning it was because I built a following on my blog. And no, it's not a just do it and it will work. It took enormous amounts of effort and practice. For years, no one read what I wrote. It wasn't even my first blog. I had given up on multiple previous attempts. Eventually after years of trying different things, and promoting other people, I got good enough at teaching some lessons that people began spreading the word.
That post above on Luck is a great example. That didn't come out of the blue. It came from a writing assignmient I had from a writing class I took at:
https://www.writingclasses.com/
I'm just practicing too. Hard.
"I guess what I am saying is that, somewhere in that middle ground between working your a&^ off, and tripping over a billion dollars in the street, there must be a formula for getting attention and traction with your creations."
No, there mustn't be. Or there'd be more Ubers and Airbnbs in the world. One, these billionaires aren't tripping over anything. They go through an enormous amount of persistence and practice looking for opportunities.
But also, why are we so focused on what the billionaires have done or how they got there. There are almost an infinite number of places that represent success from just starting out to getting anywhere near what a billionaire may have achieved.
I've got a lot more to write about getting traction. But if you want some quick ideas, here's a post I wrote on Reddit that has some great concrete tactics:
https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/3b6l85/how_would_you_promote_your_blog_posts/csjdo2p
Amrita
on 28 Jul 15I love this post and the ensuing discussion.
My two cents as a lifelong startup marketer:
You can write the best content out there, but it needs to get seen. Sometimes, it can get seen because enough people are searching/stumbling upon that kind of content, sometimes it can get seen because you pay people to see it.
I do think there is something in the middle as Devan describes, but I would refer to it as what you get by doing the hard work of building relationships to a point where you can ask someone with a larger audience to share it. And if that person’s audience overlaps with who you are trying to reach, it can do more than give you the TechCrunch bump.
And finally the other thing I’ve seen people do which [sadly] works is to reference enough people in the content you create so that they share it because it promotes themselves. More people do that than we would like to believe.
The long hard road works, but too many startups are designed to be impatient.
Devan
on 28 Jul 15Nate – Thank you for the thoughtful & respectful replies, and associated links. I am learning a lot here – WAY more than I have from the last dozen or so business books I have bought in the past year.
I am a big fan of Tim Ferriss as well, but I do note that in his first 4HWW book, he mentions setting up an online business selling health products that operated ‘hands free’ and funded his vagabonding lifestyle. But even HE briefly skims past the nuts and bolts of how he sat up and ran this side of his life. Instead, he focused on the exciting and good bits about pursuing his passions. Fair enough – that is what excites readers and sells books. However I would have loved to hear more about the things that didn’t work, or where he might have had to change direction.
I guess that I, like many others, have fallen into the trap that is society’s obsession with the underdog’s meteoric rise to the top, and all the good things that it entails.
I would dearly love to read more, either via a series of blog posts, or in a book from you, about the ‘grind’ aspect of building a business or a profile. Quite honestly, the stuff you have posted here and in your side links have been far FAR more motivational to me than any book dissecting the success of any other startup.
DHH
on 30 Jul 15Devan, when we launched Basecamp, we had just under 4,000 subscribers to this weblog. By today’s standards, that’s nothing. Zilch. There are hundreds of joke accounts that have 10x or 100x that.
That 4k subscriber base from 2003 was enough to launch Basecamp and get a few hundred customers the first year. But it still took a whole extra year to build that into a business that could just keep the lights on for 4 people at meager salaries. And that was with a product that squarely hit a great product-market fit!
Do you know how long it took to get to 4k subscribers? 4 years!! Signal v Noise was started as a blog in 1999. You can build a far broader audience far faster these days.
It’s indeed a grind. We have thousands of posts on Signal v Noise, probably 100+ conference talks between everyone having worked at Basecamp, constant work to improve the product, and, finally, SOMETHING TO SAY.
I don’t mean that in a disparaging way (hey, you don’t have anything to say), but as a cause-and-effect. When you have something new to say or something old to say in a new way, that’s what’s going to travel. That’s not easy to arrive at. It takes a lot of practice, interesting experiences, and the like, but there just isn’t any other way.
There’ll always be a audience waiting for a new interesting, persistent voice. Best of luck finding yours!
This discussion is closed.