Ryan’s lightbox post sparked a lively debate about the feature, influence, opinion, and contradiction.
After one person pointed out that Matt said he liked something that was sorta “Lightboxy” and Ryan didn’t like Lightboxes, another commenter said:
I’d honestly love to see a post on how you guys handle some of the contradictions you make in public.
I’m really glad he asked because this topic has been on my mind for a long time.
The answer is simple: People are contradictory. You are, I am, he is, she is. People from all walks of life, work, and belief contradict themselves, their leaders, their mentors, and their friends constantly.
We’re all human and we all change our minds—hopefully. Those who don’t change their minds, or who aren’t influenced by other minds, are frozen in time. They’ve declared: “Learning is over, I know all there is to know.” That’s sad.
My sixth-grade science teacher, Mr. Blackburn, once told me “Never believe yourself to be completely certain of anything.” The only thing I’m certain of is that he was right.
So what if Matt may says one thing, Ryan says another, and a few months later Matt or Ryan changes their mind or perspective? They may agree today and disagree tomorrow. I may believe something today that I don’t believe in 3 days. And 3 days later I may go back to the original belief. That’s how it should work. That’s normal.
As a company, we don’t believe there’s anything wrong with that publicly or privately. We believe it’s healthy. Adaptation based on new information or perspective is a healthy part of learning and growing—as a person or collectively as a company. Continuing to refine your opinion is A Good Thing. It’s all part of figuring things out over time.
Statements are about now, not about forever.
Resist the urge to be afraid to say something today because you said something else yesterday. Say what you want to say. Don’t be afraid of those who are ever-armed with the critical spotlight ready to call out your contradictions. Be proud that your mind is still open to new discoveries and possibilities.
Benjy
on 11 Sep 07We’re all human and we all change our minds—hopefully. Those who don’t change their minds, or who aren’t influenced by other minds, are frozen in time. They’ve declared: “Learning is over, I know all there is to know.” That’s sad.
And yet the media, political opponents, voters, etc. hold such views against politians by labelling them flip-floppers! Our current administration seems to have taken the “I know all there is to know” approach, and look where that’s gotten us… don’t we want leaders who are able to synthesize the situation and re-examine as their views mature, conditions change, theories prove inadequate?
James
on 11 Sep 07So that’s all well and good, but why do 37s staff never disagree with each other in this blog (publicly)? The perception could be that you’re always in agreement, or the decision’s been made to toe the partly line publicly.
Do you always agree with the entries 37s staff make?
RS
on 11 Sep 07I DISAGREE
Dan
on 11 Sep 07Closed minds and absolutist thinking are perhaps the greatest dangers to our world. Just check the date if you need a reminder of that…
random8r
on 11 Sep 07@RS – No way man! You’re wrong!
brad
on 11 Sep 07Taking this back to the realm of software and design (and away from politics) for just a minute….
This is interesting. I mean, how does this mix with the whole ‘opinionated software’ idea?
I tend to be a fairly intuitive guy, so pardon me if I’m a little vague, but there seems to be something contradictory about strong opinions and openness to contradiction …. [ but I am open to correction :) ]
JF
on 11 Sep 07I mean, how does this mix with the whole ‘opinionated software’ idea?
What you see in our software are our opinions today. We may hold an opinion forever, or we may change an opinion tomorrow. Opinions change.
RS
on 11 Sep 07It’s important to share core opinions while having individual differences at the same time.
The core values set the culture for a team, while the differences and contradictions keep it alive and growing.
Justin Reese
on 11 Sep 07My disconnect occurs between not speaking in absolutes, yet not soft-balling every damn thing. “Right now, I think Lightbox sucks” is future-proof and communicates a personal opinion, but “Lightbox sucks” is more succinct and opinionated.
IMO (soft-ball!), the latter is preferable, so long as I swallow my pride and draw attention to the flip-flop if I change my mind.
FredS
on 11 Sep 07Simpsons did it!
Joe Alba
on 11 Sep 07LA Times just published a relevant article on the subject of these different “cognitive styles”—giving it a liberal vs. conservative spin.
Study finds left-wing brain, right-wing brain
Personally, I think that every time passionate, well-informed people contradict themselves, they’re making the world a little bit better because they’ve just seen another side of the issue. From that info, we’ll eventually be able to narrow down those decisions and decide “Hey, this choice is right in this specific context, while the other choice is better in another context.”
JF
on 11 Sep 07Personally, I think that every time passionate, well-informed people contradict themselves, they’re making the world a little bit better because they’ve just seen another side of the issue.
I completely agree. Seeing someone change their mind is one of the most interesting moments in life.
Arik
on 11 Sep 0737s,
I don’t care how juvenile or bold your company is. Maintaining a consistent standard and image should be a priority. While you’re very successful in the sense of how many users take up your products and in some cases your philosophies, you’re still a company with an image to uphold.
One member of your company saying they love something and then another saying they do through the same channel is unacceptable. While various members of a company should and will have different opinions and perspectives, they shouldn’t be displaying those differences for the public to see and in turn, tear apart.
Internal disagreement for the sake of growth is great, but externally it has no relevance.
Arik
on 11 Sep 07CORRECTION:
“One member of your company saying they don’t love something and then another saying they actually do through the same channel is unacceptable.”
David W
on 11 Sep 07Why?
ML
on 11 Sep 07One member of your company saying they love something and then another saying they do through the same channel is unacceptable.
Unacceptable to who?
Montoya
on 11 Sep 07Diversity of thought, people! It’s a feature, not a bug.
DHH
on 11 Sep 07Arik, that’s not what we’ve found. The customers that we’ve talked to in person, at our workshops, conferences, and elsewhere, seem to appreciate that we’re human beings who can disagree in public without fearing that our image will crumble at the slighest of contradictions.
Actually, the most popular segments in our workshops have been exactly those moments of disagreements between team members. Disagreements adds angles to a subject, it highlights the pros and cons, and enhances the learning experience.
I tend to think that this represents the core of our image. You might very well feel that we should have a different image. Or that this image wouldn’t work well for your company. But we seem to be doing pretty alright running this ship according to our own beliefs.
Mark B
on 11 Sep 07Straying a bit…I think the issue re: contradiction in the public sphere is due to lack of attention span, by both the media and the populace. There seems to be no patience for listening to a politician, say, explain WHY their thinking has changed or evolved. The tendency is for their opposition to tarnish them a flip-flopper, knowing that the buzzword is objectively true and that no one will bother listening to the explanation why.
Brian H
on 11 Sep 07Arik,
I believe this thinking highlights why many “traditional” companies, with “traditional” business models dont’ get it today. Instead of adapting to a situation, the hold fast until their dying breath.
Take the music industry. Because of the advent of high-speed internet and the proliferation of MP3’s they’re going nuts.
Instead of holding to the model of selling one good song, with 16 shitty ones for $17.95, they could have been early adopters of a-la-carte music and be successful like Apple. But no, they were of the opinion, "The only way we can maximize profit and milk this artist for all their worth is to sell this song with 16 others of mediocre quality".Too many companies, mine included, have these business opinions that they never change, because they believe they’re a part of some uber business law. What they fail to realize, is there’s no such thing as the perfect business model and “what works today, may not work tomorrow”
Ryan
on 11 Sep 07I think it’s easy to give one’s self freedom to make mistakes in the public space, or to contradict one’s self every so often. What’s difficult is actually judging one’s opinions and weighing the facts, so to speak, before coming to a conclusion. This is not part of the normal human experience, though. We don’t tend to go over all the evidence before making opinions; we pre-judge things by nature.
I think that if you and your company are going to write blogs that are going to be taken as professional facts by many (as they are, whether you intend them to be or not) you ought to hold yourselves to higher standards and look at projects/ideas/opinions with more detail. Examine what you’re saying before you say it, as many here (whether they admit to it or not) take your words as gospel and will readily dismiss or accept something simply because 37signals said so.
Walt Whitman
on 11 Sep 07Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Kyle Pike
on 11 Sep 07This is interesting. I mean, how does this mix with the whole ‘opinionated software’ idea?
A great example of this is when 37signals decided Textile was too much of a support headache and left it out of Highrise. This raised quite a few expressions of “but it’s in Basecamp.” or “You use it on your own blog!”. DHH commented that he was the evangelist for the use of Textile, but later changed his mind.
ML
on 11 Sep 07Examine what you’re saying before you say it, as many here (whether they admit to it or not) take your words as gospel and will readily dismiss or accept something simply because 37signals said so.
Part of what’s great about blogging is that you get to express thoughts quickly. But part of the price of that is you don’t always get to meditate at length about what you’re saying. So think twice before taking anything we say here as “gospel” or “professional fact.”
Splashman
on 11 Sep 07David, y’all are welcome to conduct yourself as you choose, of course. And I will choose how much credibility to assign you, based on how you conduct yourself.
When someone tells me on Monday “X is true”, and on Tuesday, “X is true, except when it’s not,” I don’t interpret the change as an indication of humility or open-mindedness. I take that as a indication that I should take Tuesday’s pronouncement with a very large grain of salt, or, more likely, ignore it altogether.
When someone tells me on Monday, “X appears to be true in this particular case, and may in fact be generally true, but I’d need to do a lot more testing before reaching such a conclusion,” I take that as a indication of humility and open-mindedness, regardless of what I hear from that person on Tuesday.
David, your post seems to me to be nothing more than a defense of ill-considered statements. If you were more careful about making general pronouncements, there would be far fewer instances of “changing your mind” and far more reasons for me to think you credible.
Sandy
on 11 Sep 07In general America is a very ‘opiniony’ culture, prone to have strong opinions about things, worn on the sleeve. People often have strong – even extreme – opinons about things, and indeed may change them at a moments notice. In our industry, the slightest thing can set off an opinion fest.
There are other cultures that tend to downplay the airing of their latest personal opinion, and indeed tend to hold off forming strong opinions about things till they perform in the long run.
Dr Clotaire Rapaille in ‘the Culture Code’ (mentioned here a while ago?) describes the American psyche being in its adolescent stage – and this seems true here. Is it not adolescent to form strong opinions so quickly yet change them at whim?
Splashman
on 11 Sep 07Sandy, instead of my lengthy post, I wish I had restricted myself to a sentence similar to your last.
Arik
on 11 Sep 07If you actually read my response in context, you’d realize I wasn’t particularly against disagreements. What I’m not a fan of is disagreement on a tacky public level. In fact, disagreements where I work have spurred some of the best work and solutions, but these are internal. Parading these disagreements in front of potential clients is quite frankly, stupid.
Is it not important to be publicly consistent, even if there are disagreements?
DHH
on 11 Sep 07I think public consistency is overrated—especially when not running for office. I’d rather share opinions and information as they’re formed and become available.
That’ll undoubtedly lead to an interative process where opinions and information is updated, tweaked, or even flipped as time go on and more evidence or discovery is made.
That’s a trade-off I’m willing to make.
Piyush
on 11 Sep 07The most valuable aspect of blogging to me, as a fledgling in the field, is to able to read what other successful entrepreneurs/teams/companies do and are going through. To constructively debate on something in public requires great courage and this, like many other constructive deliveries, has been a great learning tool.
It makes the readers realise that like most teams, successful ones have differences of opinions among them too. The point that sets the successful ones apart is that they take the debate as an opportunity to iterate, learn, reiterate and evolve, generating a product that takes best of all ideas. This is the core of most 37s products as well – sharing, discussing and collaborating.
The transparency and that this debate has brought forward has been invaluable to me. And I would encourage more open discussions like this, perhaps as a blog feature at least once a month on a hot topic.
Arik Jones
on 11 Sep 07There’s that 37s shine we’ve all be lookin for. lol. Wow.
DHH,
I guess as a customer of your products, you would at least realize that your credibility and integrity is just equally as important as your philosophy and opinions. You’re accountable to your company, so act that way.
However, change your minds, disagree and contradict all you want. But as your customer, I don’t care to hear about it.
Prophetess
on 11 Sep 07Say what you want to say.
Rather, say what you mean to say.
RS
on 11 Sep 07Real consistency isn’t saying the same thing today that you said last year. It’s doing and saying the same thing, today and every day. When you walk the way you talk, that’s integrity. That’s credibility.
Avi
on 11 Sep 07JF,
I agree. I believe it was Emmerson who said, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”
Piyush
on 11 Sep 07A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying… that he is wiser today than yesterday – Jonathan Swift (1667-1745)
Anonymous Coward
on 11 Sep 07However, change your minds, disagree and contradict all you want. But as your customer, I don’t care to hear about it.
Ahh, look who’s contradicting himself now? You don’t want to read it, yet you not only read it you comment on it.
Vickita
on 11 Sep 07Someone has already mentioned the famous “foolish consistency” quote from Emerson, but since it’s one of my favorite literary passages, I thought I might be permitted to add it here. Clearly, GMTA.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — ‘Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.’ — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
Douglas
on 11 Sep 07What a lot of people here seem to be losing sight of is that the “public disagreement” here is about whether Lightbox is or isn’t a good thing. The answer to that question relies on one’s opinion about web aesthetics, UI design, and the trade-offs that sometimes need to be made. It’s acceptable that one’s final opinion may sway on a dime.
If 37s were to hum and haw about, say, whether Ruby was a good language, then it would be time to cast stones. Perspective, people!
Erik Mallinson
on 11 Sep 07I live an entire life of contradiction. If I say I hate something I usually think about why I hate it and two weeks later I’m trying it out. I think it’s one of my best traits.
On the topic of disagreement within 37signals I was just wondering about that myself… it does seem that y’all are always in agreement, though obviously that’s not true.
ML
on 11 Sep 07Yeah, the Virb example actually seems different to me than the lightbox example RS mentioned in his post. RS believes a lot of other things that I disagree with more. ; )
JF
on 11 Sep 07it does seem that y’all are always in agreement, though obviously that’s not true
Think of it this way… The company agrees with itself, but coming to that agreement involves a fair bit of individual disagreement. We press and push each other into thinking things through and then we reach agreement as a company.
Splashman
on 11 Sep 07Douglas, this particular post of David’s is not about Lightbox; if it were, I wouldn’t have bothered to respond. In this post he is making a series of generalizations, and most everyone is responding to those generalizations.
I’m still shaking my head over this one: “Statements are about now, not about forever.” In other words, “I may or may not know what the hell I’m talking about today, but you should take me seriously anyway.” Oboy.
JF
on 11 Sep 07Spashman: It was my post, not David’s.
I may or may not know what the hell I’m talking about today, but you should take me seriously anyway.
The first part of that sentence is correct. The second part, about taking me seriously, is up to you. I’m not asking you to take me seriously, I’m just sharing my opinion. The rest is your own judgement call.
Douglas
on 11 Sep 07Splashman, I took JF’s writing in that kind of context. For example, on the web app I’m working on I’m considering whether or not to use a WYSIWYG editor in a particular place, or to give a textarea and parse out the text (in a Textile type way). There were pros and cons for either position. Today I had a different opinion on the subject than yesterday. I know I need to make a decision, and soon, but I don’t mind being open with my colleagues about my “flip-flopping”.
There’s nothing axiomatic, though, about my decision one way or the other, or whether to use Lightbox, or really anything else of this level. I could change my mind and change round the implementation in a month, and it wouldn’t affect anything else. So why should I be too precious about a decision that I make now?
shane
on 11 Sep 07The answer is simple: People are contradictory.
Oh I am not!
:-)
Splashman
on 11 Sep 07Sorry, Jason—not sure how I got mixed up.
dave
on 11 Sep 07Ain’t nothing
Did anyone else notice the ironic double-negative in the title?
Ain’t nothing = is not nothing = is something
Joshua Kaufman
on 11 Sep 07A brave post with an important lesson. Well done.
Arik
on 11 Sep 07Anonymous Coward,
??? What yer point?
Mark
on 11 Sep 07The question which spurned this post, and the quote contained in this post were mine. I appreciate Jason responding to the question, but I think some of my intent was lost in the response.
I am not attempting to question why the contradiction (which I agree is a normal thing). My question / request was how does 37Signals handle times of contradiction?
I think a good bit information can be gleamed from your answer, here’s why…
Companies, groups and teams everywhere deal with moments of contradiction. Contradiction, uncontrolled, can lead to confusion, mixed messages, unclear vision and haphazard strategy. Scope creep, bloat, complexity and “wide open boxes” (no constraints) and finally conflict are all keywords born from contradiction.
As a company who’s main message is how to eliminate a good portion of the words above from the daily grind of business, I would like to know how you deal appropriately with the times of contradiction and/or conflict.
As a general example—Designer Matt thinks a technique is “neat”. Designer Ryan thinks that technique is a kill to good experience.
Public forum or not—how do you get in to agreement? How do you resolve the conflict to move forward in your project?
If it’s in a public forum, how do you resolve the contradictory message from 37Signals?
This is where I was heading with the question. Can you be specific on how the pressing and pushing process works for you?
That’s exactly how a lot of the bloat and scope creep you see in software today occured, through the nastiness known as “iterative process of discovery” by a team of people and stakeholders.
Eric
on 12 Sep 07Yeah, 37 should check their “style guide” and “positioning statement” before every blog posting, but not before it goes thru legal. That would make for a fun existence.
RS
on 12 Sep 07Mark,
Thanks for the thoughtful questions.
As you know, there isn’t one way. Sometimes one person’s experience carries more weight depending on the issue, sometimes the best logical argument wins, sometimes it’s a draw and “stakeholders” win. Every team figures these patterns out for themselves.
Whatever the method, I think having a common goal makes the process far smoother. We all care more about making good stuff than being right. When ideas compete instead of egos, the product wins and the team wins. Sharing a goal takes things beyond the personal level of “My idea has to be in there” to “Yes that’s the best decision for the app”.
Regarding this and also iterations, again it comes down to shared values. You have to press and push relative to some goal, and ask - Are we closer? Is it clearer? Does it work better? And always check yourself with - Does it really matter? Sometimes things can be clearer, but they’re good enough compared to other improvements.
Hope this helps.
Mark
on 12 Sep 07Thank you, Ryan
Mark Caudell
on 12 Sep 07Life isn’t science, it’s about learning, experiencing things, changing and doing things as best you can at any one time. By that nature things change.
Des Traynor
on 12 Sep 07Only a fool never changes his mind.
August Lilleaas
on 12 Sep 07I don’t vote, because all the politicians I’ve seen so far aren’t human beings, but politicians. When I see a politician that acts like a human being, I’ll vote for him.
I think people are seriously fed up with image..
Arik
on 12 Sep 07August,
We buy and sell images without even paying attention. How can you be fed up with something you contribute to on a daily basis? Now thats contradiction at its best.
People want to denote things as overrated or irrelevant. But look a little more closely, you realize you’re part of the same thread you claim to be set apart from. Eh. Two cents.
Quagmire
on 12 Sep 07Giggity giggity, giggity goo.
Rajarajan
on 17 Sep 07Thank you Jason. You have a great point. Lets shed the ego and lets evolve. Speaking out the mind is always good.
Andreas Kviby
on 17 Sep 07Thanks Jason for taking your time to make things maybe more clear for a lot of people reading your blog. When a blog gets famous and read by thousands and thousands of people every little word written matters a lot. Just like you write in the book Getting Real, word matters.
So when you guys state that this or that is a hellhole for webdesigners there’s going to be a lot of discussions about it, no matter what because word matters.
If you would state that Mac is the only choice for developers you would end up in a big debate even if you have the right to express your mind or your companys mind during a special day it could potentially be misstaken by a lot of people as your red line of thinking inside 37signals.
So if you say lightbox sucks I believe a lot of readers which read your book and live by your command will also think that lightbox actually sucks. I believe lightbox is a great effect for some special webs perhaps but still if you compare showing an image with and without the lightbox effect you would end up in using the one without the lightbox effect. Why? It doesn’t matter!
Live by the book, I wrote that 37signals changed my way of thinking three times this year and nothing is the same anymore and I live by “The Getting Real Way” so for me it is simple, if you do the lightbox effect together with thousands of other cool stuff would end up in the traschcan. Just because they doesn’t matter!
Thanks Jason for a good entry and thanks again for changing my life three times!
This discussion is closed.