The Brash Boys at 37signals Will Tell You: Keep It Simple, Stupid is a four-page article in the March 2008 issue of Wired Magazine about 37signals. It should be on the newsstands this week.
[Hansson] and his partners at software developer 37signals have backed up the big talk. Rails has continued its run of popularity; over the years, tens of thousands of programmers have used it to create countless online applications, including podcasting service Odeo and microblogging phenomenon Twitter. And Basecamp, 37signals’ Rails-powered, easy-to-use online collaboration software, boasts more than 2 million account holders. Signal vs. Noise, the 37signals blog, pulls in 75,000 readers a day. Hansson and 37signals cofounder Jason Fried are “revered,” says business author Seth Godin. “They are as close as we get to demigods online.”
As “revered” “demigods,” — come on Seth, we’re blushing! — we’re definitely pleased with the article and think it’s a thoughtful, evenhanded story. (Plus the photo makes us look like cool Euro DJs.)
What about the backlash part of the story? Well, Andy Warhol once said, “Don’t read what they write about you, just measure it in inches.” True words those. Nonetheless, let’s set the record straight on a few myths mentioned in the story…
Myth: Whoever spends the most wins
What’s more, 37signals’ ideological objections to outside funding could make them less able to withstand competition. Nicholas Carr, author of The Big Switch, says companies like 37signals won’t have the resources to fight should larger firms with huge economies of scale and backend infrastructure decide to take them on. “They’re going to have a very tough challenge,” he says.
We continue to find this argument flawed. First of all, a few rounds of VC millions won’t put us on equal footing with bazillion dollar giants like Google, Microsoft, or other masters of economies of scale.
Second of all, we’re not in the winner-take-all software world of the 90’s anymore. Thanks to the web, there’s plenty of room for lots of companies, ideas, and products to flourish. The behemoth model isn’t the only game in town. There’s plenty of opportunity, success, and profitability to go around.
Lastly, we think our biggest competitor is habit—people using the phone, email, paper, pencils, post-it notes, and fax machines. These are the people we want to win over. We believe the simple software we’re building is the best way to do it.
Myth: 37signals customers are unhappy
The Basecamp message boards are filled with complaints from unhappy users, fed up with the software’s paucity of features who have switched to competing products.
It’s too bad the article didn’t quote any of the thousands of satisfied customers who love our software (here’s just a few). Or mention the love letters we get all the time from people who’ve found our products to be a godsend for their businesses. Or mention the people who left only to come back after they realized the alternatives with all the features were better on paper than in practice.
Our customer retention rates are very healthy and, in our most recent Basecamp customer satisfaction survey, 94% of customers said they would recommend Basecamp to friends and colleagues. We’re extremely proud of that. We believe we continue to do the right thing for our customer base as a whole.
This is especially true when it comes to feature requests. The number one reason people say they like using our products is because they are simple and easy to use. To maintain that advantage you have to be really careful about how you evolve. There’s nothing easier than saying yes, but even just a few too many yeses can make a good thing go bad. Balance is key.
We consider it a top priority to keep our products simple, focused, and easy to understand. As we’ve said before, we’d rather our customers grow out of our products than never be able to grow into them in the first place.
Also: It’s unfortunate when journalists use online comments and message boards as “evidence” of anything. Really, someone wrote something negative in an online forum? What a shocker. In case you haven’t noticed, people can tend to be a teeny bit negative/antagonistic when leaving comments online. The truth is the vast majority of our customers are very happy with our products.
Myth: We don’t care about our customers
Fried says he doesn’t worry about losing individual Basecamp customers, since none of them pay more than $149 a month.
This could be taken out of context (“37signals doesn’t care about losing customers”) so let’s be clear: We care deeply about customer satisfaction and we don’t like to see customers leave us. But if we need to lose some to make others happy, we’re ok with that. We also recognize not everyone is going to like our products or our point of view. We’re ok with that too.
That’s why we’re happy to have such a diverse customer base. Unlike many enterprise software companies, we don’t rely on any one customer (or a handful of customers) as our primary revenue source. Companies with a few big clients are beholden to those customers in ways that can quickly become detrimental to the company, the product, and other customers.
By spreading our revenue source over thousands of customers — none with the upper hand on any other customer — we can make decisions that benefit the vast majority, not the wealthy minority. Since no one pays us more than $149/month, we can stick to our shared vision and provide the vast majority of customers with exactly what they come to us for: Simple software that’s quick to get started, easy to use, and provides far more value than the price we charge.
Myth: Complexity is a necessary byproduct of the modern age
In the article Don Norman says:
Complexity is a necessary byproduct of the modern age. When you actually sit down and analyze what you need to get the job done, it’s not simplicity.
We disagree. As complexity and confusion grows, simple tools become more and more valuable. And while sometimes it’s easy to think we need this that and the other to solve a problem, it’s often the simplest solution that actually gets the job done. Not everything has to be a Swiss Army Knife. Sometimes a screwdriver just needs to be a screwdriver.
Norman’s view seems rather depressing in the way it accepts complexity as an inevitable result of modernity. Dehumanization is a byproduct of the modern age too. But that doesn’t mean you just give up and surrender to it. We prefer to put up a fight.
Myth: We refuse to change
Call it arrogance or idealism, but they would rather fail than adapt.
Huh? We’re all about adapting. Our entire business and philosophy is about iteration, quick change, adaptation, and opportunity. At its core, Getting Real is about change and evolution.
Thanks
All that said, our hats are off to author Andrew Park for all his hard work on the story. While we may quibble with a few of the points in the piece, we recognize that Andrew was trying to be evenhanded and tell all sides of the story. Andrew was exceedingly professional, travelled to Chicago to meet with us in person, and, overall, was as thorough a journalist as we’ve ever met with. So thanks Andrew. And thanks to Wired for publishing the story too.
Travis
on 26 Feb 08“Norman’s view seems rather depressing in the way it accepts complexity as an inevitable result of modernity. Dehumanization is a byproduct of the modern age too. But that doesn’t mean you just give up and surrender to it. We prefer to put up a fight.”
Very nice.
Jack Shedd
on 26 Feb 08How did you guys feel about the conflating of the Rails platform for 37signals and its products? Many of the criticisms in the piece seemed focus on David and Rails.
Greg
on 26 Feb 08This wouldn’t be the first time people have disagreed with DHH.
A perfect example of people taken action against DHH is the Merb Ruby web framework.
Unlike Rails, Merb is thread safe. Lighter weight. Faster and complies more with the “Ruby way” than Rails.
JF
on 26 Feb 08How did you guys feel about the conflating of the Rails platform for 37signals and its products?
I thought that was a little strange. Seemed to be weaving a few things together which don’t really relate. Rails came out of Basecamp and our other work at 37signals, but weaving some of the criticism in next to mentions of our commercial products was a little confusing and potentially misleading.
DHH
on 26 Feb 08“complies more with the Ruby way”, ehh, what? Alternatives are fine. There are many Ruby web frameworks now. That’s great. Something for all tastes. But trying to compare them under a supposedly objective light of “more Ruby” is laughable.
Anonymous Coward
on 26 Feb 08Love that merb’s advocates have to position it as an “action against DHH” instead of simply letting it stand on its own merits.
Anyway, nice coverage, 37s!
Luigi Montanez
on 26 Feb 08There were quite a few errors in that piece. Jason didn’t create Ruby on Rails. Highrise isn’t a CMS. Merb isn’t a “rival” to Rails.
Merb isn’t against Rails or its creator. It’s simply a different framework, grown out of experience using Rails. Merb’s creator is coming out with a book called “Deploying Rails Applications”, so you can’t really say there’s much rivalry going on here…
Gleb
on 26 Feb 08I can’t stop being surprised how DHH politely and thoroughly comments on the opinions that others could be so easily offended by.
10 in 2 people
on 26 Feb 08You mean like your biggest competitor: habit—people using the phone, email, paper, pencils, post-it notes, and fax machines?
Matt
on 26 Feb 08Great post! I’m glad you guys cleared those statements up. When I first read the article, I didn’t think that those statements lined up with what you guys are about, especially the part about failing instead of adapting.
John Topley
on 26 Feb 08I wondered why you guys were pictured hanging out next to those railway tracks and then it hit me – Rails! I totally see what they did they there.
Jack Shedd
on 26 Feb 08It seemed like the author was trying too hard to create conflicts that don’t exist for most of 37signals customers. David may be a controversial figure in development circles, but most of my clients, and I’m sure most of your customers, don’t care how the sausage is made.
Feels like he really should have written two separate pieces.
DHH
on 26 Feb 08John, the reality is even more mundane. The tracks are just the only piece of visually interesting set piece right by our office. There wasn’t even a pun intended from that set ;)
Mike
on 26 Feb 08In the picture, is Jason watching for Metra trains?
I love the phrase from Nicholas Carr: “larger firms with huge economies of scale and backend infrastructure”. HUGE, I mean HUUUUUGE economies of scale.
FredS
on 26 Feb 08Nice quote from Harper.
Grover
on 26 Feb 08Can we, like, get that on a plaque somewhere? The thing that really sold me on Backpack was when I heard someone say “It approaches the usability of a piece of paper.” and lordy that is completely true.
Congrats on the article fellas.
Mike
on 26 Feb 08Really, someone wrote something negative in an online forum? What a shocker. In case you haven’t noticed, people can tend to be a teeny bit negative/antagonistic when leaving comments online.
Sort of like some of DHH’s comments in the article? Honestly, you should chill out a bit, especially if you’re going to wear that yellow sweatshirt a lot.
Matt Rade
on 26 Feb 08In case you guys needed anymore confirmation that you’ve arrived at the peak, you just got it. Congrats guys – well deserved. Just don’t get lazy on us… ;)
Srini Kumar
on 26 Feb 08Very happy to see some of our coding heroes getting the ink they deserve. Congratulations.
- Srini
Johannes Kleske
on 26 Feb 08David, have you ever counted how many times you have had a photo shoot on some kind of rails?
Nathan
on 26 Feb 08I think what Don Norman is getting at is the concept that complexity always underlies simplicity of the end result.
Think of a car – a driver simply gets in, turns the key, and we’re off. Simple. What is involved to make one key turn turn the car on (or buttun press)? Extraordinary complex processes and systems do.
kishba
on 26 Feb 08@Johannes That would make a fantastic Flickr group. Or a web site.
Nathan
on 26 Feb 08I’d suspect that Apple is the paramour of 37signals… willingness to lose customers is not a bad statement to brush under the carpet. Some customers are not worth having. So what. Some people are not worth being friends with on Facebook. So what.
I don’t think Jony Ive could give a crap whether someone’s thinks paying more for a black MacBook makes any kind of sense. And that’s what makes them great.
Microsoft is great, but when it goes down in the history books, Apple will be considered the greater company.
Marcus
on 26 Feb 08Personally, I don’t feel like the article offered up anything that wasn’t already covered over the past three or so years. It was too scattershot, touching a wide range of nothing.
Wired, 2008: Businessweek, 2005:It’s clear I’m not a big fan of the attitude, but I’m interested in a lot of the methodology. The Wired article doesn’t really flesh out either.
Nathan
on 26 Feb 08Okay, that sounded like a typical Apple fanboy, but you can find the same sort of inspiration for greatness in companies like IDEO and Frank Gehry, and so on.
Tim
on 26 Feb 08What’s the typeface used for Keep It Simple, Stupid in the magazine?
I absolutely love it.
Ron Guida
on 26 Feb 08Nice job guys. Well deserved -
David Duran
on 26 Feb 08All I can say guys is that I can’t wait to get this issue. Congrats on your successes… it’s an inspiration.
ps – Great pic. I can see a bit of 37’s HQ in the background. :)
Chad Crowell
on 26 Feb 08Hilarious- I am wondering if they were snapping pictures or if the photog said “Now, Jason, look to your right, casually, like you are a rock band.” Because practically every picture of a rock band has one dude looking away.
I always knew you guys were ROCK STARS! Long live BASECAMP!
Jonathan
on 27 Feb 08I never understood the whole “DHH is arrogant” meme. So he says “Fuck you” on a slide. So what? It’s called humour, and it’s used to make a point.
That aside, it’s interesting how so many articles can get the wrong side of what you guys are trying to do, and predict failure for Basecamp based on the fact that it’s not some crazy Exchange/Office killer. As wiser men than me have said, Groupware Bad (http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html).
What our complex lives demand are thoughtful, simple-to-use tools that do discrete tasks very well. Bonus points if they interoperate.
The beauty of the 37s apps is that they all interoperate, but I don’t have to “buy” Basecamp just to use Campfire, or Writeboard. I can keep my usage as simple as I like, and dial up as necessary.
It’s a very Unix methodology, and it’s becoming increasingly clear that small, interoperable tools win where bloated, monolithic factories lose.
Keep it up, guys.
Nick
on 27 Feb 08It is clear, the goals of the 37S team is not size or scale, it is personal freedom and happiness. This is the “The new rich,” to quote Tim Ferriss. Growth is not a necessity for a private company. The rest of the industry is obsessed with these types of metrics; 37S is playing a different game.
EliseG
on 27 Feb 08I am in the process of starting a small web development company and you guys have been such an inspiration. I didn’t think the Wired article was bad, just a little short sighted of the author in places. While being a Google might be nice, I think there is plenty of room for us little guys. I am starting on less than 30K of my own capital and having a hell of good time doing it. Anyway, there are more important things than big huge metrics. Anyhow, I love 37 Signals. You guys rock and I love reading your blogs and seeing what you do next.
Neil J. Squillante
on 27 Feb 08Jonathan, they don’t interoperate—not well at least! Writeboards are broken. Unlike all the other components in Basecamp, Writeboards do not trigger alerts when created, when changed, or when someone comments below.
DHH
on 27 Feb 08Neil, using the word “broken” to mean “I’d like to have” is such an unfortunate commonality in a lot of feature requests these days. Why the drama?
What about just saying “I’d really like if Writeboards could send email notifications” (Writeboard already notifies people via the dashboard, project log, and RSS feeds). It would make the conversation a lot less antagonistic and probably more encouraging to work on.
Neil J. Squillante
on 27 Feb 08I used the word “broken” because it’s a component of a project management system that doesn’t work like the other components do.
I’m all for simple, easy to use software, which I would define as giving up features in exchange for consistent interface design that works “intuitively” for lack of a better word (no software is truly intuitive—some training is always required).
Writeboards are inconsistent with the rest of Basecamp. Messages generate email alerts, File uploads generate email alerts, Milestones generate email alerts, etc. This inconsistency was fine initially because software takes time to develop, but Writeboards are 3-4 years old now.
I think I chose the right word. And I don’t see any drama here. Just a nerdy, dispassionate debate.
Incidentally, if I were working at 37 Signals, I would not criticize that article. I would order some reprints. That is great press, not bad press. Bad press is when Wired decides not to publish anything about you.
DHH
on 27 Feb 08Neil, your definition of broken is puzzling. Why hijack a word that already does a fine job explaining a certain behavior (something that doesn’t work like it was designed to) to mean something else entirely? Inconsistent, as picked later, seems to be a good way of describing how you feel about the current behavior. Of course, it doesn’t quite pack the same sensationalist punch.
It would be nice with email notifications, though. I’d like to see that happen too. We’ve even talked about ways to make it happen. It just hasn’t been the next most important thing yet. I’ll chalk your comment up as one vote that it should be.
Regarding the Wired article, we generally liked it. As was stated a few times already. But it contained a number of misconceptions that we might as well correct.
That’s the great thing about the web and the ability to publish your thoughts. You’re not beholden to only the journalist side of the story, the source can speak up too and reach at least some of the same readers. It’s all good.
Jack
on 27 Feb 08highrise = CMS?
glad i left
on 27 Feb 08everyone in chicago is like this. boorish and defensive.
it is what happens when you are in permanent 2nd place
Patricia Garcia
on 27 Feb 08In terms of accepting complexity in modern life, I agree with you guys. I was just thinking this morning that I stopped visiting a message board when they decided to upgrade and become more of a social networking sites. All my online friends from those boards thought for sure, me the computer geek would love the new site but in honesty, I liked it the way it was before. An old-fashioned message board structure. It was simple. There were no personal profile pages where you have a “friends list” or can post my own blogs. Those are all great features, but I already had all that, somewhere else. I came to their message boards when I just wanted to engage in conversation. It was easy to find the topic and you just typed, no font selection toolbar, just good ol’ plain text.
I didn’t need them to be all things for all people. Just shoulda kept it simple.
Evan
on 27 Feb 08Yeah, but most cities do a lot worse than “permanent 2nd place!”
(I don’t live in Chicago, but I’m thinking about it)
Anonymous Coward
on 27 Feb 08Popped collars—now I’m worried.
j/k :-)
Jim Cota
on 27 Feb 08Oh, I can’t tell you how much I love that comment. I may have it laminated, hung in the conference room, and point at it every time a client gets squeamish about letting their customers provide clear, uncensored feedback.
Bravo, guys. And congrats on the attention. /Jim
Douglas Karr
on 27 Feb 08After a good long interview where I said, “Getting Real” still stands as the industry’s bible of designing software and disseminating your aggressive marketing tactics, Wired decided to go with one sentence of my interview with them… “They think they’re right and everyone else is wrong”.
Though I don’t always agree with you guys and I have been critical in the past, I’m disappointed that Wired took one of my comments and not all of them. The interview I did was critical of you – but in no way was it meant to be personal.
The industry still owes you guys a lot. Congratulations!
Robert Fauver
on 27 Feb 08Yeah I think if I picked up a copy of the mag in a Doctor’s office and read it I would have thought the author/journalist was tripping. on acid.
Jim Gibson
on 27 Feb 08A thought about that “economies of scale” thing. I clearly remember reading an article years ago that stated confidently that Apple could never be successful because their R&D budget had no chance of keeping pace with the consolidated moneys of the Microsoft/PC juggernaut. It made so damn much sense that I remember being mildly depressed for a couple of days. It has been interesting in the intervening years to realize that some things scale and some just don’t. Brute-force marketing efforts can scale well, but less tangible things like clarity of purpose, good timing, design, and innovation simply do not. All the money, manpower, and resources in the world placed in service to misguided goals just gets you to the wrong place faster.
—Jim Gibson
Larry Velez
on 27 Feb 08Jason,
I thought you might find this article interesting. It talks about how people just cant resist keeping their options open, even when they know that they will be penalized by it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/science/26tier.html?ex=1361768400&en=0ced27ff172610bf&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
It might be a factor as to why many people feel they need all the complex options in a complex solution and try to keep them around even though they do not use them.
We are in outsourced IT for small business and we often tell our subscribers that they should reduce their storage in half and that they do not need all the Gigs of data they have laying around. They often scream that they absolutely can not survive without it. When we run an inventory of when each file has been accessed, we find that only 5% of the data has been accessed in the past year. But they still will not let go of the older data.
We don’t have the luxury of having a web based business that only produces hundreds of dollars per customer. Someone has got to do the dirty heavy lifting of keeping business IT running and this means our engagements are in the thousands per month. So a ‘fuck you’ to a customer hurts us as much as them. But we work hard to find the right balance and to create value for the subscribers who believe in our way of doing things.
Christopher Fahey
on 27 Feb 08WIRED is, in large part, a magazine for tech investors. If 37signals doesn’t grow big enough to go public, or pose a threat to a big public company, then as far as WIRED is concerned you are merely a curiosity. When they use words like “adapt”, they mean “become enormous”, which in turn really means “let other people have a piece of the action”.
Don Schenck
on 27 Feb 08DHH, you’re not arrogant.
At least not until you’re as badass as I am!
Bob Moore
on 27 Feb 08We use Basecamp to help manage the complex process of building custom homes. We work with a wide range of talented architects, interior designers, engineers, landscape architects, masons, electricians, plumbers, HVAC contractors …. Our clients range from Wall Street Exec’s (super type A’s) to Hollywood celebs. If they actually had to take the time to “learn” how to use Basecamp, they wouldn’t use it.
Sometimes a simple tool can solve a wide variety of major problems and Basecamp does that for us.
By staying focused on the needs of the Fortune 500,000 (small business), 37Signals should prosper for many years to come.
Oh and by the way … It’s not the critic that counts.
Julian
on 27 Feb 08Good job on getting into Wired guys!
Jaan
on 27 Feb 08The Wired story mentions “unhappy users, fed up with the software’s paucity of features […] who have switched to competing products”.
Is it just me, or would anyone else in fact like to see a tad less new features on the 37Sig apps? I kinda’ liked the pre upgrade Backpack, and I like the slimmer Basecamp. I don’t want to snag any more page space here so I posted about this over on Sharpenr instead.
Either way – the 37Sigs apps have made me a better web worker and for that I am v v grateful.
zeldman
on 27 Feb 08Congrats on the fame. News stories inevitably distort, conflate, and view through filters. Well done on the reasoned response. It must be frustrating to have to keep saying the same clear, sensible things over and over. You do it well, and you don’t let the frustration show.
Oh, and Christopher Fahey has it right:
Simon
on 27 Feb 08I have been in web development for the past 16 years. I founded one of Australia’s biggest web developers. I have worked with most CMS products, most CRM products and many intranet products. We have a big Sharepoint implementation in the office. I discovered Basecamp and have been using it for a year. I have introduced it to many clients. My experience is that everyone can get going using Basecamp without training and complex implementation, they add to the functionality they use as they go and it requires no training. Sharepoint requires training, it only works properly if it’s integrated with the 2007 suite of products and people end up working around it rather than with it. Simple is good, no one has time to learn what should be so simple it requires no learning just discovery.
Vernon
on 28 Feb 08I totally support EliseG’s comments! 37Signals have provided many SME’s and startups with the inspiration to build apps that are useful and provide alternative solutions to the big-end of town products. That seems to be a big part of what they do, in a friendly, easy and open manner.
Part of success is taking on critisism and you can’t please 100% of your target audience 100% of the time…
You guys have made a difference, so keep up the good work!
Rying
on 28 Feb 08110% RESPECT
Eric Meyer
on 28 Feb 08Congratulations on the article and growing visibility!
Perry Clyde
on 29 Feb 08I resepect Basecamp guys for what they’ve done for the software development, but I don’t think that everything they do is right. They don’t listen to thier users requests and keep losing customers because of that. For example, I switched from Basecamp to Wrike.com These guys do listen to my feature requests and i feel that my voice counts.
Arlo
on 29 Feb 08I use Basecamp daily, as well as Backpack. Nice to see you guys in print, as I am also a Wired subscriber. I did get a negative feeling from the article, though, as if the author had his suspicions.
Dennis
on 29 Feb 08Enjoyed the article, the response and this dialog. Have used Basecamp in a project management startup www.gpdesign.com and now work in a Fortune 50 company. Wish some of our systems were as easy to use and effective.
Wisdom from Winston Churchill: “Intense complexities produce intense simplicities.”
All the best!
Josh Walsh
on 02 Mar 08Congrats on the fantastic publicity.
Bob Dobolina
on 02 Mar 08Congrats fellas!
:)
Martial
on 03 Mar 08As my boss says just about every day, “Simple, not simplistic.”
Any and every context in which we work is complex. That isn’t the “modern age”, that’s the human mind and its insatiable, unquenchable desire to walk and chew gum at the same time. A tool should strip out every bit of unnecessary complexity – and allow you to work well with every bit of the necessary. What I appreciate about 37Signals is that they know, deep in their bones, that a tool must be a small thing.
This discussion is closed.