[Fireside Chats are round table discussions conducted using Campfire.]

The Chatters
Seth Godin (blog)
Mark Hurst (blog)
(Moderated by Matt and Jason from 37signals)

Topics
Topics covered include Google, Apple, JetBlue, the common thread of companies that offer top-notch customer experiences, the GEL conference, zoomers and why they’re important, industries that don’t get it, and more.

Sample quotes
Mark: “Go to the top person…and ask him/her when’s the last time they sat, face to face, with a customer, and let the customer talk – no focus group questions, no usability tasks – just talk about their experience. In many orgs that gets a blank stare – as if to say ‘Customers? i don’t have time for them.’ And there’s your answer.”

Seth: “I think the long term benefits are how you rationalize it to the board and to your investors. But I think that’s not sufficient to drive a true service attitude. That comes from your mom or from something in your make up that makes you want to serve people in what you do all day.”

Seth: “TAKE RESPONSIBILITY! If there’s a problem, fix it. If your job can’t be fixed, quit. How dare you waste your life in exchange for a paycheck. You have high speed internet access, bub, you’ve got no excuse. You don’t live in a hovel in Ghana. Go do it!! Pick up the phone and call someone.”

Mark: “Try to become more aware of experience – whether at work, while using technology, while in a store, in a bank, or wherever. i think the more people are aware of good and bad experiences, the better they are at taking responsibility (re seth’s comment) for creating good experiences where they can.”

Seth
Matt, did you know that Mark used to work with me?
Seth
eons ago
Matt
Yeah, back at Yoyodyne, right?
Mark
seth gave me my first job out of college & i’ve benefited from that experience ever since
Matt
What was it like working together?
Seth
Mark is very focused, very very smart (two verys, perhaps exponential) and in those days
Seth
very serious.
Seth
What was incredibly wonderful was that it didn’t matter what the topic…
Seth
I could riff at full speed and he would riff right back
Mark
aww shucks, now c’mon
Matt
Mark, how was Seth? Anything surprising that we wouldn’t expect?
Mark
seth taught me so much – just as importantly he was able to create an environment where a lot of things/learnings/ideas/etc. emerged that only happen in his energy field
Mark
surprising, let’s see…
Mark
he knows an awful lot about the early days of computer/online gaming (people may think he’s "only" a superior marketing expert)
Mark
oh i have something surprising – as much as seth gets done – (if it’s still true as it was in the old days) – he is extremely disciplined about work-life balance – that was a good model for me
Seth
The thing that’s hard for people online to remember today is that in the mid 90s, there was a great deal
Seth
of disbelief. Basically, most people thought we were insane
Matt
Any specific example(s)?
Matt
What were you saying back then that seemed insane?
Seth
At Google, or at 37s, you don’t have to persuade your mother in law that there really is an industry. there are tools and people and systems and even ways to raise money
Seth
So the people who joined the team at the beginning were either extremely self confident and driven…
Seth
or were in it for the weekly paycheck and couldn’t care about the topic.
Seth
we worked hard to get rid of the latter group, with an awful lot of success.
Mark
it was a great team
Matt
Mark, what are the common threads you see in companies that offer top-notch customer experiences?
Mark
primarily, a buy in from the top level of the organization
Mark
if the C-level execs don’t buy it (literally) then it goes nowhere
Mark
no matter how many usability practitioners they hire
Seth
In every company that I’ve ever seen that gets it right, it’s because someone WANTS to get it right. It’s not easy (if it were, everyone would do it) so the game goes to people who are willing to make sacrifices to do the hard work.
Mark
well put
Seth
But it doesn’t have to be the C people alone. It can happen in a division or even at a franchise.
Mark
one metric i sometimes suggest
Mark
go to the top person (in the org or, yes, as seth sez in the division) and ask him/her when’s the last time they sat, face to face, with a customer, and let the customer talk – no focus group questions, no usability tasks – just talk about their experience
Mark
in many orgs that gets a blank stare – as if to say "customers? i don’t have time for them"
Mark
and there’s your answer
Seth
Mark has way more experience than I do with this, but I think it’s a different sort of question… which is, "how much sleep do you lose over the bad interactions?" There are direct marketers who bleed every time someone returns something, for example, and there are those that just say "cost of doing business."
Matt
Does there have to be a Steve Jobs type who cultivates a customer-centric attitude?
Matt
(from the top down)
Mark
steve jobs is a very, very special case – but in terms of "top down", yes – whether a company, division, or team, the person in charge needs to lead by example.
Mark
without that explicit buy-in for the importance of the customer, it really doesn’t matter what methodologies or reports people throw around
Mark
i’d take even one more step back and say that understanding how business works today is the key… customers rule
Matt
It seems like understanding the value of long-term relationships is key to what both of you preach.
Seth
I think the long term benefits are how you rationalize it to the board and to your investors. But I think that’s not sufficient to drive a true service attitude. That comes from your mom or from something in your make up that makes you want to serve people in what you do all day.
Mark
whether you call it "relationships" (a loaded word, unfortunately, sort of a buzzword now) or something else doesn’t matter – it’s about running a business in (yes) the long term
Matt
Seth, if Jobs doesn’t care about customers, why is Apple so successful?
Seth
Because customers want fashion.
Seth
They want it even more, sometimes, than they want service.
Seth
Sure, Apple will go to the edges of service sometimes, becasue
Seth
that’s part of their fashion mantra, but, for example,
Seth
no slots in computers, no open apps in the iphone…
Matt
So people buy Apple because it’s cool/fashionable and not because it provides a valuable service?
Mark
i think there’s a danger in focusing too much on apple
Mark
apple is a special case (it’s fashion AND service AND usability – not always perfect, but better than the competitors) – most companies aren’t playing in such a sphere
Seth
I’m going to back up Mark here. Let’s riff on the real world.
Seth
but yes, that’s what I mean.
Matt
JetBlue is a company you both love, right? What turns you on about them?
Mark
just the company i was going to bring up
Seth
head of training is also head of marketing!
Seth
they put TVs in the seats instead of their planes on TV
Seth
and they work hard to offer EXTRA snacks instead of figuring out how to get you to take fewer
Seth
all for one reason. Because the journey is what they control
Seth
eveyrone can offer the destination.
Mark
neeleman built the service from the customer out – what’s annoying about plane travel today? hidden fees, roundtrip only, bad seats, etc. etc. – and built the service to meet those key unmet needs
Seth
for passengers!
Seth
here’s a great story: they almost had a dress code…
Seth
No cutoffs, no tank tops.
Seth
imagine a contest… best dressed passenger gets a free trip. you’d have people flying in tuxedos!
Mark
wonder if the airlines are going to allow cell phone calls in the air – that will add a new dimension to the experience that we haven’t had much before
Mark
i.e. what if the guy in the tux is yakking the whole time
Seth
do you know why people complain about airlines so much? because of power and respect. The airlines have enormous power over us, and when they disrespect us, we’re hurt.
Seth
the best businesses and the best marketers have power. If you have too much choice, they don’t have a lot of profit. And if the power isn’t matched with respect… we hate them.
Mark
...but what i was going to say about jetblue is that pretty much ANY company or team can put that to use: find the key unmet needs of your customers, and build the experience to deliver on those
Mark
as opposed to people trying to build another Apple – ain’t gonna happen
Matt
Tell us about a person, company, or thing that you feel is really underrated.
Mark
the ten-cent notebook
Matt
why?
Mark
people running around madly typing things into their little digital device – heck, the notebook has perfect handwriting recognition.
Mark
later, back at the computer, just type those couple notes into your e-mail, or text editor, or whatever, and you’re done
Mark
also a five-dollar Zebra minipen to go with it. i always have paper and pen with me at all times for those little quick notes
Mark
much cheaper than a washer-drier-cellphone
Seth
I think civil society is dramatically underrated, especially by media types, online or off, that want to profit by tearing it apart
Seth
if it went away, we’d never be able to replace it and would mourn it forever.
Seth
this is a very special microsecond in history, and I don’t think we’re working particularly hard to extend it
Matt
Seth, which media types are trying to tear apart civil society?
Seth
From Ann Coulter down to some blogger who posts flames just to start a comment war and get attention. They take a natural resource and rip it up to make a few bucks. It’s really sad.
Seth
The thing is, if someone went to a place we value (like the symphony) and started yelling, we’d ask em to leave
Seth
even better, they wouldn’t even yell
Seth
because yelling is just wrong. It rips apart the process for everyone
Mark
they would if they could make money off it
Seth
I am NOT criticizing the people with opposing views. I’m criticizing the posture and the process.
Seth
Remember when Usenet was useful?
Seth
or when Digg wasn’t gamed constantly?
Mark
it’s a loud media environment out there – in part because it’s overloaded. i think it’s up to the individual to decide what few sources are best for their media diet and stick to those – and ignore everything else.
Mark
(in an overloaded environment, only the loudest yellers get attention = paycheck)
Seth
But the choices keep getting narrower because the standards keep dropping.
Mark
there are still some finds.
Mark
the overloaded environment brings down the level of conversation, yes, but it also increases the chance that there will be at least one person out there saying good stuff on a given topic
Seth
let’s talk about mark’s to do list project
Mark
gootodo! gootodo!
Seth
so, make your pitch…
Mark
i want to say first that our gracious hosts have built a wonderful tool, tada list, which is a fine piece of software
Mark
(or online software, whatever the right term is )
Seth
but…
Matt
Matt
Mark
...and in my mind tada list is best (probably the best, in fact) for creating lists
Mark
but (forgive me, guys) not for todo lists
Mark
because todos have a lifecycle all their own, and they require a tool that is designed for that particular lifecycle
Mark
for example, some todos need to be created immediately, but they don’t become active for days, weeks, or months
Mark
there’s a period of inactivity when we don’t want to see the todo on the todo list.
Mark
we just want it to appear later when it’s the right time.
Mark
there is no todo list without a calendar attached. that’s one main point. (there are others but i won’t bore you – also matt please jump in about tadalist’s strengths :)
Matt
well, for starters tadalist is dead simple…and it’s free.
Mark
yes and yes
Matt
i’d rather steer toward new areas then a todo list debate if that’s alright.
Mark
sure thing
Matt
A couple of reader questions:
Matt
John Koetsier 22 Jan 07 For Seth: I have a million startup ideas (ok, my potential biz list is about 20 ideas long) but limited time. What’s the best strategy: go deep on one idea, or try 3-4 simultaneously? Time is limited, obviously, money is as well. Rifle or shotgun: what would you do?
Seth
I think this is a false dichotomy.
Seth
rifle implies all your eggs in one basket.
Seth
get it wrong and you go home.
Seth
shotgun implies that you throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks
Seth
half assed, in other words.
Seth
I think there’s a different approach.
Matt
what’s that?
Seth
We start by understanding that in any industry, there are dues to be paid, things to learn, people to know.
Seth
A base of code to be written, or concepts to understand.
Seth
If you go shotgun, you’ll resist that. You’ll flutter and flitter.
Seth
Always waiting in the supermarket line, switching lines,
Seth
never getting to the front.
Seth
BUT
Seth
So, I say, pay your dues. Concentrate your effort.
Matt
Good point.
Seth
At the same time, understand that you will never be right about fashion.
Seth
You’ll never get the story perfect.
Seth
And if all your eggs are in one basket, you’ll study too much
Seth
you’ll test too much
Seth
and you’ll be afraid to go go go
Seth
and so, build your platform
Seth
and be sure your platform leaves room for many riffs, many shots, many attempts to get it right.
Seth
At Yoyodyne, we changed our business plan COMPLETELY every four or five months.
Seth
Our core beliefs stayed, our software base stayed, our people stayed
Seth
but our business changed.
Seth
end of riff
Mark
if i can attempt an echo.. be tight on the foundation; be loose on what you build off it
Seth
yeah, like that.
Mark
i agree that context is so important – content may change, emerge, whatever
Matt
Sounds like you need to have a foundation, but one that can float as opposed to being anchored.
Seth
it’s the attitude, Matt. If your attitude is, "we built this foundation, we will continue to reinvest in it, AND we will always be willing to radically change our story and our deliverables" then I think you win.

Continued at Part 2.