[Fireside Chats are round table discussions conducted using Campfire.]
The Chatters
Seth Godin (blog)
Mark Hurst (blog)
(Moderated by Matt and Jason from 37signals)
Topics
Topics covered include Google, Apple, JetBlue, the common thread of companies that offer top-notch customer experiences, the GEL conference, zoomers and why they’re important, industries that don’t get it, and more.
Sample quotes
Mark: “Go to the top person…and ask him/her when’s the last time they sat, face to face, with a customer, and let the customer talk – no focus group questions, no usability tasks – just talk about their experience. In many orgs that gets a blank stare – as if to say ‘Customers? i don’t have time for them.’ And there’s your answer.”
Seth: “I think the long term benefits are how you rationalize it to the board and to your investors. But I think that’s not sufficient to drive a true service attitude. That comes from your mom or from something in your make up that makes you want to serve people in what you do all day.”
Seth: “TAKE RESPONSIBILITY! If there’s a problem, fix it. If your job can’t be fixed, quit. How dare you waste your life in exchange for a paycheck. You have high speed internet access, bub, you’ve got no excuse. You don’t live in a hovel in Ghana. Go do it!! Pick up the phone and call someone.”
Mark: “Try to become more aware of experience – whether at work, while using technology, while in a store, in a bank, or wherever. i think the more people are aware of good and bad experiences, the better they are at taking responsibility (re seth’s comment) for creating good experiences where they can.”
| Seth | Matt, did you know that Mark used to work with me? |
eons ago |
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| Matt | Yeah, back at Yoyodyne, right? |
| Mark | seth gave me my first job out of college & i’ve benefited from that experience ever since |
| Matt | What was it like working together? |
| Seth | Mark is very focused, very very smart (two verys, perhaps exponential) and in those days |
very serious. |
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What was incredibly wonderful was that it didn’t matter what the topic… |
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I could riff at full speed and he would riff right back |
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| Mark | aww shucks, now c’mon |
| Matt | Mark, how was Seth? Anything surprising that we wouldn’t expect? |
| Mark | seth taught me so much – just as importantly he was able to create an environment where a lot of things/learnings/ideas/etc. emerged that only happen in his energy field |
surprising, let’s see… |
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he knows an awful lot about the early days of computer/online gaming (people may think he’s "only" a superior marketing expert) |
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oh i have something surprising – as much as seth gets done – (if it’s still true as it was in the old days) – he is extremely disciplined about work-life balance – that was a good model for me |
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| Seth | The thing that’s hard for people online to remember today is that in the mid 90s, there was a great deal |
of disbelief. Basically, most people thought we were insane |
| Matt | Any specific example(s)? |
What were you saying back then that seemed insane? |
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| Seth | At Google, or at 37s, you don’t have to persuade your mother in law that there really is an industry. there are tools and people and systems and even ways to raise money |
So the people who joined the team at the beginning were either extremely self confident and driven… |
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or were in it for the weekly paycheck and couldn’t care about the topic. |
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we worked hard to get rid of the latter group, with an awful lot of success. |
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| Mark | it was a great team |
| Matt | Mark, what are the common threads you see in companies that offer top-notch customer experiences? |
| Mark | primarily, a buy in from the top level of the organization |
if the C-level execs don’t buy it (literally) then it goes nowhere |
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no matter how many usability practitioners they hire |
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| Seth | In every company that I’ve ever seen that gets it right, it’s because someone WANTS to get it right. It’s not easy (if it were, everyone would do it) so the game goes to people who are willing to make sacrifices to do the hard work. |
| Mark | well put |
| Seth | But it doesn’t have to be the C people alone. It can happen in a division or even at a franchise. |
| Mark | one metric i sometimes suggest |
go to the top person (in the org or, yes, as seth sez in the division) and ask him/her when’s the last time they sat, face to face, with a customer, and let the customer talk – no focus group questions, no usability tasks – just talk about their experience |
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in many orgs that gets a blank stare – as if to say "customers? i don’t have time for them" |
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and there’s your answer |
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| Seth | Mark has way more experience than I do with this, but I think it’s a different sort of question… which is, "how much sleep do you lose over the bad interactions?" There are direct marketers who bleed every time someone returns something, for example, and there are those that just say "cost of doing business." |
| Matt | Does there have to be a Steve Jobs type who cultivates a customer-centric attitude? |
(from the top down) |
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| Mark | steve jobs is a very, very special case – but in terms of "top down", yes – whether a company, division, or team, the person in charge needs to lead by example. |
without that explicit buy-in for the importance of the customer, it really doesn’t matter what methodologies or reports people throw around |
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i’d take even one more step back and say that understanding how business works today is the key… customers rule |
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| Matt | It seems like understanding the value of long-term relationships is key to what both of you preach. |
| Seth | I think the long term benefits are how you rationalize it to the board and to your investors. But I think that’s not sufficient to drive a true service attitude. That comes from your mom or from something in your make up that makes you want to serve people in what you do all day. |
| Mark | whether you call it "relationships" (a loaded word, unfortunately, sort of a buzzword now) or something else doesn’t matter – it’s about running a business in (yes) the long term |
| Matt | Seth, if Jobs doesn’t care about customers, why is Apple so successful? |
| Seth | Because customers want fashion. |
They want it even more, sometimes, than they want service. |
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Sure, Apple will go to the edges of service sometimes, becasue |
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that’s part of their fashion mantra, but, for example, |
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no slots in computers, no open apps in the iphone… |
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| Matt | So people buy Apple because it’s cool/fashionable and not because it provides a valuable service? |
| Mark | i think there’s a danger in focusing too much on apple |
apple is a special case (it’s fashion AND service AND usability – not always perfect, but better than the competitors) – most companies aren’t playing in such a sphere |
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| Seth | I’m going to back up Mark here. Let’s riff on the real world. |
but yes, that’s what I mean. |
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| Matt | JetBlue is a company you both love, right? What turns you on about them? |
| Mark | just the company i was going to bring up |
| Seth | head of training is also head of marketing! |
they put TVs in the seats instead of their planes on TV |
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and they work hard to offer EXTRA snacks instead of figuring out how to get you to take fewer |
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all for one reason. Because the journey is what they control |
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eveyrone can offer the destination. |
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| Mark | neeleman built the service from the customer out – what’s annoying about plane travel today? hidden fees, roundtrip only, bad seats, etc. etc. – and built the service to meet those key unmet needs |
| Seth | for passengers! |
here’s a great story: they almost had a dress code… |
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No cutoffs, no tank tops. |
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imagine a contest… best dressed passenger gets a free trip. you’d have people flying in tuxedos! |
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| Mark | wonder if the airlines are going to allow cell phone calls in the air – that will add a new dimension to the experience that we haven’t had much before |
i.e. what if the guy in the tux is yakking the whole time |
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| Seth | do you know why people complain about airlines so much? because of power and respect. The airlines have enormous power over us, and when they disrespect us, we’re hurt. |
the best businesses and the best marketers have power. If you have too much choice, they don’t have a lot of profit. And if the power isn’t matched with respect… we hate them. |
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| Mark | ...but what i was going to say about jetblue is that pretty much ANY company or team can put that to use: find the key unmet needs of your customers, and build the experience to deliver on those |
as opposed to people trying to build another Apple – ain’t gonna happen |
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| Matt | Tell us about a person, company, or thing that you feel is really underrated. |
| Mark | the ten-cent notebook |
| Matt | why? |
| Mark | people running around madly typing things into their little digital device – heck, the notebook has perfect handwriting recognition. |
later, back at the computer, just type those couple notes into your e-mail, or text editor, or whatever, and you’re done |
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also a five-dollar Zebra minipen to go with it. i always have paper and pen with me at all times for those little quick notes |
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much cheaper than a washer-drier-cellphone |
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| Seth | I think civil society is dramatically underrated, especially by media types, online or off, that want to profit by tearing it apart |
if it went away, we’d never be able to replace it and would mourn it forever. |
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this is a very special microsecond in history, and I don’t think we’re working particularly hard to extend it |
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| Matt | Seth, which media types are trying to tear apart civil society? |
| Seth | From Ann Coulter down to some blogger who posts flames just to start a comment war and get attention. They take a natural resource and rip it up to make a few bucks. It’s really sad. |
The thing is, if someone went to a place we value (like the symphony) and started yelling, we’d ask em to leave |
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even better, they wouldn’t even yell |
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because yelling is just wrong. It rips apart the process for everyone |
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| Mark | they would if they could make money off it |
| Seth | I am NOT criticizing the people with opposing views. I’m criticizing the posture and the process. |
Remember when Usenet was useful? |
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or when Digg wasn’t gamed constantly? |
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| Mark | it’s a loud media environment out there – in part because it’s overloaded. i think it’s up to the individual to decide what few sources are best for their media diet and stick to those – and ignore everything else. |
(in an overloaded environment, only the loudest yellers get attention = paycheck) |
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| Seth | But the choices keep getting narrower because the standards keep dropping. |
| Mark | there are still some finds. |
the overloaded environment brings down the level of conversation, yes, but it also increases the chance that there will be at least one person out there saying good stuff on a given topic |
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| Seth | let’s talk about mark’s to do list project |
| Mark | gootodo! gootodo! |
| Seth | so, make your pitch… |
| Mark | i want to say first that our gracious hosts have built a wonderful tool, tada list, which is a fine piece of software |
(or online software, whatever the right term is ) |
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| Seth | but… |
| Matt | |
| Mark | ...and in my mind tada list is best (probably the best, in fact) for creating lists |
but (forgive me, guys) not for todo lists |
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because todos have a lifecycle all their own, and they require a tool that is designed for that particular lifecycle |
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for example, some todos need to be created immediately, but they don’t become active for days, weeks, or months |
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there’s a period of inactivity when we don’t want to see the todo on the todo list. |
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we just want it to appear later when it’s the right time. |
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there is no todo list without a calendar attached. that’s one main point. (there are others but i won’t bore you – also matt please jump in about tadalist’s strengths :) |
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| Matt | well, for starters tadalist is dead simple…and it’s free. |
| Mark | yes and yes |
| Matt | i’d rather steer toward new areas then a todo list debate if that’s alright. |
| Mark | sure thing |
| Matt | A couple of reader questions: |
John Koetsier 22 Jan 07
For Seth:
I have a million startup ideas (ok, my potential biz list is about 20 ideas long) but limited time.
What’s the best strategy: go deep on one idea, or try 3-4 simultaneously? Time is limited, obviously, money is as well.
Rifle or shotgun: what would you do?
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| Seth | I think this is a false dichotomy. |
rifle implies all your eggs in one basket. |
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get it wrong and you go home. |
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shotgun implies that you throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks |
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half assed, in other words. |
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I think there’s a different approach. |
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| Matt | what’s that? |
| Seth | We start by understanding that in any industry, there are dues to be paid, things to learn, people to know. |
A base of code to be written, or concepts to understand. |
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If you go shotgun, you’ll resist that. You’ll flutter and flitter. |
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Always waiting in the supermarket line, switching lines, |
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never getting to the front. |
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BUT |
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So, I say, pay your dues. Concentrate your effort. |
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| Matt | Good point. |
| Seth | At the same time, understand that you will never be right about fashion. |
You’ll never get the story perfect. |
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And if all your eggs are in one basket, you’ll study too much |
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you’ll test too much |
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and you’ll be afraid to go go go |
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and so, build your platform |
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and be sure your platform leaves room for many riffs, many shots, many attempts to get it right. |
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At Yoyodyne, we changed our business plan COMPLETELY every four or five months. |
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Our core beliefs stayed, our software base stayed, our people stayed |
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but our business changed. |
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end of riff |
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| Mark | if i can attempt an echo.. be tight on the foundation; be loose on what you build off it |
| Seth | yeah, like that. |
| Mark | i agree that context is so important – content may change, emerge, whatever |
| Matt | Sounds like you need to have a foundation, but one that can float as opposed to being anchored. |
| Seth | it’s the attitude, Matt. If your attitude is, "we built this foundation, we will continue to reinvest in it, AND we will always be willing to radically change our story and our deliverables" then I think you win. |
Douglas F Shearer
on 29 Jan 07It’s just like when you come back from lunch and find 200messages in campfire waiting to be read! Maybe this will be the new fashion that bests podcasting…
Keeran
on 29 Jan 07Thanks for running the talk guys – really inspirational people.
Out of interest, I’ve read a few of Seth’s books now, and have seen a few similarities between how he thinks businesses should be running and what 37S are actually doing – was he involved at all in your marketing plans?
Thanks again,
Keeran
George
on 29 Jan 07I think it’s awesome that Mark Imbriaco led the Fireside chat. His connection to Seth, his chat.
Mark Hurst
on 29 Jan 07As awesome as Mark Imbriaco is, he wasn’t the Mark leading the chat ;)
JF
on 29 Jan 07Keeran, Seth Godin didn’t have anything to do with our marketing plans. We just share similar views on some things.
Keeran
on 29 Jan 07Hope you took that as a compliment though – listening to, and trying to understand where you are both coming from has been instrumental in taking steps towards improving my offering.
Caleb Elston
on 29 Jan 07Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just finished re-reading Purple Cow, Small is the New Big, and Getting Real. It was serendipitous to have this chat show up in my feedreader this morning. Reading it was like eating a freshly baked chocolate chip cookie, distinctly satisfying and comfortingly familiar. Keep up the fantastic work.
heri
on 30 Jan 07i wished seth godin explained how to get a “tight foundation”. his answer is obvious. i mean if all of the ideas you get are great, solid and revolutionnary, then everything would be ok but most of time, things are not so sure.
i think john koetsier was referring to the fast-pacing world of today where nothing is certain, and you cant really know if an idea will work. you feel there is a 50% chance the idea might attract an audience and dont know if you have to work 100% on that idea or start at the same time 3 other projects.
Leith
on 30 Jan 07Great advice and direction from all parties. I have read the Get Real ebook from 37signals and am using it as my mantra as I build my own business. It really is defining the way I work, at every decision-point, I stop and think: is this adding real value, is this complicating things unnecessarily, is this going to make sense to customers. Thanks for the wisdom, chaps.
Chris
on 30 Jan 07I really like Seth’s book: Free Prize Inside. That really had some great stuff in it.
This discussion is closed.